Migration to Poland – An Inevitability

Someone must be responsible for making the law. Which political party in Poland do you think might successfully go through the legislative process to create such a law? As I said, pure fantasy.


This is absolutely correct. I've been saying for quite a while now that there is no reason for the retirement age for women in Poland being lower than that of men.

I don't like your defeatist attitude. If something is difficult or complex, it doesn't mean it is impossible.

Which law is that? Have you heard of the Constitution of Poland?



Which benefits are those?


I'd generally agree with you if the burden of taking care of elderly parents (and young grandchildren) didn't disproportionately fall on Polish women. I suppose one way to take care of that problem would be to introduce death duties of 100% and ring-fence that money for childcare facilities and old people's homes.

Or is it the other way around? Perhaps it is the women who take care of the elderly and grandchildren because they retire 5 years earlier than men?

Do you think that if the retirement age were to be the same Poles everywhere would stop thinking that a 61-year-old women should take care of her parents and her grandchildren?

Why would they?

Who should/would be taking care of them? Most 61 year old men would not be good at it...

Someone else? Why should it be women responsibility? Especially if, as suggested, the retirement age was equalised.

So 61-year-old women who haven't retired will be expected to work full time and take care of their parents and their grandchildren?


I'd say the job is best left to professionals. But instead you have old ladies living in one million zloty flats that they won't sell, because they want to leave those to the kids that hardly even visit them and who leave them so short of cash that they need to count out their grosze in the shop.

And who pays?

And where are these professionals in Poland? Professional implies things like training and living wages etc....

As said above, I'd encourage the people who need the care to pay for the care. That can be done by preventing them from passing on inter-generational wealth by imposing 100% death duties. That would mean the old ladies living in one million zloty flats could do equity release schemes and/or sell their flats to spend the proceeds on decent care. And the proceeds from the death duties would be ring-fenced for childcare facilities and old people's homes.


Wages that can be paid if people spend their wealth rather than leaving it to their grasping children and/or grandchildren.

One, is it a burden to take care of your family members? You are cold.
Second, no law point out women as those who are obliged to do it. If they volunteer, who are you to object? You are indeed heartless.
Third, perhaps people should have more children so that in their old age, that duty would fall on more people.

Those are the last resort for those unhappy souls that have no choice, or at least it should be like that. Making it a norm is a sign of a sick, childless society.
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Here, trying to advoid responsibility, if you don't have seven children, you are to blame, too.

All I know is that both my grandmothers were taken care of in their old age by their sons (even though they both had one son and two daughters each), and my Dad helps as much with my kids as my Mom.

The early retirement privilege is a relic of old times, not justified in the reality of modern Poland.


Every banker's wet dream--old generation selling their flats and houses en masse and bankers getting brand new generations of mortgage slaves.


This is far from a standard situation. Such behaviour from children is frowned upon in Poland and my friends and relatives either live together with their older parents when they can't take care of themselves or pay for very expensive nursing homes.

I see you have very limited experience of taking care of adults who are incapable of the most basic of actions and who lack the mental facilities to even know that such actions are taking place.


We're still waiting for you to tell us about the law that "as it stands, is shaped around women contributing to society by having children." I wonder why you won't tell us about that law.

Agreed. A few years ago I was talking to a guy in Romania complaining about the government wanting to raise the retirement age... but at least he did make the connection between demographic decline and retirement age.... if you don't have kids you're going to have to work longer.

Retirement itself is kind of a relic in many cases.

Not a banker's dream at all: lots of properties hitting the market would cause prices to sink, meaning that banks earn far less in interest on mortgages and on mortgage fees.


Speak for yourself, it's something I've been saving hard for. In the last seven years I've tucked away each year an amount equal to 49.5% of my gross salary.

Inevitably.

Even in case of women who do in fact have children, earlier retirement reduces lifetime earnings, pension accumulation, and social security benefits, worsening the gender wealth gap. Besides, such women already experience interrupted careers and pay disparities, so retiring earlier locks in disadvantage instead of correcting it. Therefore, the policy framed as "protective" functions as structural discrimination.

However, if we really think - as Lazarus seems to (and I might even agree) - that caregiving justifies earlier retirement, the rule should be care-based, not gender-based, applying equally to anyone providing substantial unpaid care.

not the law, what I mean is that laws are shaped around women having and taking care of children, for example, early retirement age, and so on.
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It might be difficult, but it doesn't mean that taking care of your family members is a burden; that is a cold and heartless point of view.

Hmm... you might be onto something here, Maf.

Let's think: people like Lazarus who are able to save a substantial part of their earnings are a small minority. As a matter of fact, as scary as it may sound, overwhelming majority of Poles don't have any substantial savings. Therefore, they rely on their pensions for their future financial security. If pension schemes were abandoned altogether, people would be forced to have children to take care of them in their old age.

This is a much better idea than Iron's plan of forcing every woman to give birth to 7 children. :) I am not saying it would be easy to introduce but... something to consider.

Why? Take the money you would have spent on kids and invest it for your old age. Add to that full equity release and you'll have more than enough to pay for professional care for the years you need it.


I think that caregiving justifies a caregiver's allowance.

I didn't mean that so much in individual terms but in societal ones.... people who live in a society with low birthrates are not going to be able to retire early or maybe at all.


Doesn't really work like that.... unless you're going to the older model where retirement was just a couple of years.... 65 retirement for people with lifespans over 75.... don't make sense.

Poland has no choice, they will have to accept some immigration.... just ensure that there are no muslims amongst them....problem solved!

Thanks, same to you! Your posts are always a very interesting read and make visiting PF worthwhile.


Absolutely. France and the UK have nukes (the inside joke is that they point them at each other rather than Russia or China). US nukes in Poland wouldn't be under Polish command and control, but Washington's. Therefore, an independent Polish nuclear deterrent wouldn't mean leaving NATO; it would mean Poland not trusting its existence to turncoat allies like Britain - the experts in speeches, notes of concern, and abandoning Poland right on schedule since 1939.

Poland's diaspora (~20 million strong) isn't folklore; it's engineers, drone operators, cyber specialists, and defense industry professionals from real modern militaries. That's how you modernize fast and still have young reserve manpower. Poland wouldn't even need a US‑style TRIAD of ICBMs, SLBMs, and strategic bombers. Ukraine showed drone swarms work, but only once - then the enemy adapts. Pair drones or hypersonic missiles with tactical nuclear weapons, and you don't gamble for headlines; you make enemy bases and urban infrastructure unusable for decades. That's real deterrence.


Not the same at all. A proper Law of Return would be far more generous, proactive, and genuinely diaspora-friendly - qualities that obviously make your dentures rattle.

Care to explain why ethnic Poles coming home to Poland terrifies you, a foreign Anglo boomer, more than the demographic replacement from the Third World you are demanding?

Or is the answer simply: "I'm a loser back home and don't want Polonia returning and proving I'm a loser in Poland too"?

The clock's ticking, colonizer.


Luddite Anglo boomer with a BAME fetish. Scared shitless Poland might call its diaspora back and embrace AI, because then your colonial cosplay delusion collapses and everyone sees you're just an unintegrated shtetl parasite.

It doesn't terrify me. If past form is anything to go by, the ones from America will soon be separated from their saving by people who aren't utter morons before running home with tails between legs and the one from east of Poland will stay for as long as it takes to get Polish citizenship and then move to other EU Member states. Why waste time when there are hundreds of thousands of people from Asia who would feel blessed to have the chance to work towards Polish citizenship?


Well, it isn't me still living in my parent's bedroom, is it. I'm the one living in a nice new house 30 minutes from the city centre but also with a two bedroom flat in the city centre with private parking there and three cars on the drive here for the two of us to share.


Always good to see you get everything in a sentence completely wrong.

Perhaps you'd like more details about why I don't support American 'Poles' coming to Poland?

While the idea of a "Great Return" might sound nostalgic or patriotic on paper, from a cold, pragmatic, and sociopolitical perspective, it could be a recipe for friction and systemic strain.

Here are five harsh reasons why a mass invitation to Polish-Americans to move to Poland could be a disaster:

1. The "Heritage" vs. Reality Culture Clash

Most Polish-Americans hold an idealized, frozen-in-time version of Poland based on stories from their grandparents or 19th-century folk traditions. Modern Poland is a secularizing, fast-paced, European Union member state.
The Conflict: You would see immediate friction between the "Polonia" view of Poland (pierogi, polka, and rigid Catholicism) and the reality of a modern, liberalizing Warsaw or Kraków. This "clash of delusions" would lead to mutual resentment.

2. The Toxic "Savior Complex" and Arrogance

Many Polish-Americans would arrive with a patronizing "American-is-better" attitude, viewing themselves as the sophisticated cousins coming to "fix" or "educate" the motherland.

The Friction: This condescending mindset-coupled with a refusal to adapt to European social norms-would infuriate locals who have spent thirty years successfully building a world-class economy from the ruins of communism. The result would be a social hierarchy where the "returnees" act like colonial administrators in a country that is, in many ways, now more technologically advanced and safer than the US cities they fled.

3. Linguistic and Professional Dead Weight

Speaking "Kitchen Polish" (the broken, archaic Polish often passed down in US homes) is not the same as being professionally fluent.
The Burden: A mass influx would require the Polish state to provide massive integration services for people who think they are local but function like foreigners. In the workplace, their lack of nuance in the modern language would lead to inefficiency and "expat bubbles" rather than true integration.

4. Political Volatility and "Voter Tourism"

Polish-Americans tend to be significantly more conservative and traditionalist than the average urban Pole.
The Risk: Importing hundreds of thousands of voters whose political sensibilities were shaped by American culture wars would destabilize the domestic political landscape. It would be seen as an attempt to "stuff the ballot box" with people who don't have to live with the long-term consequences of the policies they vote for.

5. Infrastructure and Healthcare Strain

Poland's social services, particularly the healthcare system ($NFZ$), are already under significant pressure.
The Breaking Point: Inviting an older demographic of Polish-Americans-who might move back for "cheaper" retirement-would place an immense burden on the healthcare system. These individuals would be consuming high-cost geriatric care without having contributed a lifetime of taxes into the Polish system, essentially "leeching" off the labor of local taxpayers.

Good news from the Netherlands...


biznes.interia.pl/gospodarka/news-koniec-holenderskiego-eldorado-polacy-wracaja-z-migracji,nId,22509558

So, after the UK and Germany it is now another country from which more Poles come back to Poland than emigrate to. Of course, it is not only for economic reasons - some people come back because of family matters, to take care of their parents who are growing old, coming back with enough money saved to buy a flat or a hourse, men eager for some action in the coming war against Russia etc. etc., but it is also definitely the improving economy that brings Poles from all over Europe back home.

That is a good thing.
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Polish-Americans/Canadians are basically Americans and Canadians. So why not just encourage Americans and Canadians to settle in Poland? As for the former Soviet states, think back to the Polish mindset of thirty/forty years ago and then wind it back a bit further and that's the demographic you're inviting to settle.

I tried and failed miserably, even in case of those who claim to love Poland and have Polish wives. Ask AntV next time he shows up here.


What are you on about, Atch? That's a brilliant mindset - obedient to state-level authority and happy with a Zhiguli (I suppose a Hyundai would be a rough equivalent in modern Poland) and a jar of pickled cucumbers. Best immigrants we could ever hope for.

@Atch
The opposite is likely to happen now. Citizenship rules being tightened up in the near future.

Why encourage that? We want people who are healthy and hard working. More than 40% of American adults are obese. And they work an average of six hours a week less than Poles.