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How Long Before Poland Has Its 'Dumbest Generation'?


richasis 1 | 420
3 Oct 2010 #1
"There is an onslaught of stuff being sold to us from the second they come out of the womb trying to convince us that they are nincompoops [...] They need to go to Gymboree or they will never hum and clap! To teach them how to walk, you're supposed to turn your child into a marionette by strapping this thing on them that holds them up because it helps them balance more naturally than 30,000 years of evolution!"

boston.com/news/nation/articles/2010/09/27/are_we_raising_a_generation_of_nincompoops/
Seanus 15 | 19,706
3 Oct 2010 #2
Ah, but the Poles will always question intelligently. Look at 10/04/10. I don't imagine Poles to be like you present them above, richasis. They will eventually catch on to the fact that Tusk and Kommie are taking them off down dangerous paths and they will represent the resistance. They know instantly when they are being swicked. Poles are good with gadgets and systems :)
espana 17 | 937
3 Oct 2010 #3
How Long Before Poland Has Its 'Dumbest Generation'?

OMG more than now ???
...
George8600 10 | 636
3 Oct 2010 #4
I suggest you look at some IQ studies done for nationalism, economic state, and race to see Poland's ranking. You might also want to look into my colleague Richard Lynn. I believe what you mentioned is an exaggeration by the media in finding a few dumb under-nurtured cases as they do in every country and writing and article for work's sake. If these people are truly as as dumb ass you speak, their inferior intelligence is most likely genetic, not nurtured.
guesswho 4 | 1,289
3 Oct 2010 #5
And do we have only ourselves to blame?

Of course not, you can always blame it on us (observed many times on PF) ;-)
loco polaco 3 | 352
3 Oct 2010 #6
What in the hell does tusk and komorowski have to do with this, seanus? seriously man. dangerous path?
Rich is right. all "developed" nations seem to be dumbing down. i believe a lot of this is due nurturing. when we were growing up we didn't have to wear helmets for everything and nothing happened. we had winners and losers and that didn't damage anybody. now everyone is way overprotective.
Barney 15 | 1,500
3 Oct 2010 #7
Or are some of these things simply the result of kids growing up with push-button technology in an era when mechanical devices are gradually being replaced by electronics?

I've just come in after making some barrels and a bolt of felt ;)

Things move on, develop, evolve, I wouldn't worry too much.

There are things I miss that my kids are not in the slightest bit interested in.
Seanus 15 | 19,706
3 Oct 2010 #8
With their efforts to pull cotton wool over the eyes of the public. Poles see right through it and won't sit idly by.
trener zolwia 1 | 939
3 Oct 2010 #9
dumbing down

The intentional dumbing down of society for "inclusiveness" and other dubious PC reasons is much more damning than a little change of priorities due to technological advances. One is the natural evolution of society advancement while the other is a backwards and despicable manipulation designed to serve dubious social ends.
noreenb 7 | 557
3 Oct 2010 #10
Richasis
nincompoops

What is this?
Are we raising a nation of overcritical and overintelligent life observers?
Or a nation of experts?
Maybe a nation of connoisseurs?
Natasa 1 | 580
4 Oct 2010 #11
I suggest you look at some IQ studies done for nationalism, economic state, and race to see Poland's ranking. You might also want to look into my colleague Richard Lynn.

"...Intelligence is always measured relative to a particular culture; "culture free" tests of intelligence do not exist...."
Every psychologist knows that fact. Medical professionals don't know sh1t about creation, usage and possible interpretation of any IQ tests and results that exist and shouldn't deal with something they are not educated for.

Mister Lynn didn't invent anything new, those eugenic psychologists were babbling before about same things. Richard Lynn just follows those...

schonemann.de/eugenics.html

Scientific community sees that as an abuse of science for more political goals (usually it's about supremacy of white race, right wing).

Maybe it is like that, but because it was proven that even MENSA test is failing on city /village as culture free test (also the other like Raven's progressive matrices, Lynn I think is using, or some type of it), today with instruments that are available it is still NOT POSSIBLE to make those conclusions (you can but it has nothing to do with science;)).

psychologicaltesting.com/iqtest.htm

It's already getting boring. Comparisons between cultures ARE NOT POSSIBLE.

Read the article, it's about most reliable and used IQ test in clinical practice.

Each country has it's form of Wechsler's tests (similar, but in few subscales different Q's, and after standardization different norms) so questions are different in Serbia and f.e. Germany. I had an American guy who came for testing, he was raised in USA (born in Serbian family that migrated), spoke Serbian enough to communicate but I couldn't use Serbian version of test, or Serbian norms to categorize him, because he was raised in a different culture, and he can only be compared to his American, not Serbian peers. If I was like Lynn I could say using Serbian norms that he had borderline intelligence, but he didn't, he was compared to Americans (test has different questions) guy with the average IQ.

That is how it is supposed to be done.

COMPARING WITHIN A CULTURE HE STEMS FROM AND WITH PEOPLE OF HIS AGE. THAT IS THE DEFINITION OF IQ.
southern 75 | 7,096
4 Oct 2010 #12
IQ is real stuff.It has to do with academic intelligence.When I was in Germany I felt that Germans had high IQ on average much higher than Greeks.In Sweden they have a bit lower IQ than Germans,in Netherlands they have the same but Italians are definitely dumber.The same French did not impress me.Poles have obviously high IQ but lack in practical common sense.They also lack in management skills where Germans excel.Greeks have very high EQ( emotional intelligence) which helps them in small business(commerce) and service business.Germans are a lot better in construction,English in trade,Poles in manual labor,Italians in labour,everybody excels in different areas.
alexw68
4 Oct 2010 #13
Take away the intercultural controversy and the dumbing down view is STILL wrong. Adult literacy in Poland 50 years ago vs today, anyone?

OP: the plural of anecdote is not 'statistics'.
Natasa 1 | 580
4 Oct 2010 #14
IQ is real stuff.It has to do with academic intelligence.When I was in Germany I felt that Germans had high IQ on average much higher than Greeks.In Sweden they have a bit lower IQ than Germans,in Netherlands they have the same but Italians are definitely dumber.The same French did not impress me.Poles have obviously high IQ but lack in practical common sense

that is your personal observation, i guess?

It has again nothing to do with the fact that today it is IMPOSSIBLE with tests that exist to make those comparisons.

Or you know some test I'm not aware of?

different cultures value different skills, or competences. In western societies skills that are related to technological field are higher ranked than f.e. social skills.

Most of the tests originate from West, and you are using that as a measurement too. It's one of the many possibilities, it has to do with culture that's directing ppl to develop different for that community important skills.

I noticed that Russians f.e. value verbal skills more and creativeness (which is not measured in those tests at all), so their more successful ppl are good at that f.e.
southern 75 | 7,096
4 Oct 2010 #15
IQ exists.It is like physical power.For example Blacks have more fast speed muscle fibers which allow them to be better in sports requiring short distance running while Whites have more isometric muscle fibers so they are better at weight lifting,spur throwing etc.IQ is much higher in Whites and Asians.For example if you had to pass a test where you needed to get top grade in class,would you prefer the other students taking the test to be Germans,Asians or Blacks?This is the practical form in which IQ presents.
SidWolf 2 | 34
4 Oct 2010 #16
I have no idea about Poland, all the Poles I've met have been pretty switched on and indifferent to the modern technology addiction that's virtually zombified Britain. Over here we probably are experiencing our "dumbest generation" though.

EDIT: I also agree with Southern that IQ is a valid concept, while remaining agnostic about IQ testing methods.
southern 75 | 7,096
4 Oct 2010 #17
Dumbing down is a political tool of control.The dumb is unbeatable in every case.You just have to dig the earth under his feet but when they collapse they usually scream like mice.Burn mthfck,burn!

Here in Greece the dumb have taken every position through nepotism and they have the demand that we will help them to cope up with the crisis.Why should I help the dumb?I will help him to be destroyed and then I will hang him because I am superior Balkan.In fact if I give him advice I will tell him to do the opposite of what he should do in order that he crashes for sure.
Barney 15 | 1,500
4 Oct 2010 #18
COMPARING WITHIN A CULTURE HE STEMS FROM AND WITH PEOPLE OF HIS AGE. THAT IS THE DEFINITION OF IQ.

I agree with the point you are making but would also go a step further and say that IQ tests only measure your ability to complete IQ tests. ie they measure nothing significant.

If they were measuring intelligence why does IQ get recalibrated every decade or so.

Edit: If they (the tests) are measuring intelligence how is it that the same individual gets improved results with practice.
SidWolf 2 | 34
4 Oct 2010 #19
I agree with the point you are making but would also go a step further and say that IQ tests only measure your ability to complete IQ tests. ie they measure nothing significant.

That's exactly what I was trying to say, but I can't be sure whether they don't, only that there is no conclusive proof (and hence it is best to take it with a pinch of salt).
Natasa 1 | 580
4 Oct 2010 #20
IQ exists.It is like physical power.

Perfectly wrong.
What are you measuring? What power, where is it, what is it depending on, how much of that concept is given by nature, how much is developed, and what are the consequences of having some IQ score in your personal achievements?

and say that IQ tests only measure your ability to complete IQ tests. ie they measure nothing significant.

I said the same thing in some previous posts.
The best operational definition of IQ is that is the thing IQ instruments are measuring. The end.
It's a sh1tty and pretty empty concept. Based solely on comparison beetween people your age in your culture. that number is giving just your position in your age group in your country, where instrument was previously standardized.

If they were measuring intelligence why does IQ get recalibrated every decade or so.

I know that, learned that in studies.

Look above. there are few explanations for that, but for me it's one more proof not to take it to seriously.

Southern, to me it looks like you are putting the equal sign between brightness and IQ. They are different. One is an amateur concept, we all feel that some people are smart, but what will the instrument say can be problematic because it includes knowledge we got through education, so person who maybe ( not measurable still) has better given abilities will score less than somebody educated and maybe not so fast in processing inf.

How much is persons IQ depending on early development circumstances, how much on biological traits?
It's a thin ice, nobody can give you solid answer still.

GIVE UP IQ!

I also agree with Southern that IQ is a valid concept, while remaining agnostic about IQ testing methods.

Without being at least a little bit familiar with the instruments, you don't have basis for supporting the concept of IQ.
Again, the score is showing your position within your age gruop in your country. That' s it.

There are many theories of intelligence, what is it made of, it's all more or less bla, bla.

We all have our implicit theories of what it is, so don't hold on just to the official story.

We can all share here our ideas about what it is, but it doesn't have anything to do with IQ from scientific standpoint, as it is conceptualized and used now.
zetigrek
4 Oct 2010 #21
How Long Before Poland Has Its 'Dumbest Generation'?

some says it has right now.

They will eventually catch on to the fact that Tusk and Kommie are taking them off down dangerous paths and they will represent the resistance.

Are they a part of jewish concpiracy, Sean?
SidWolf 2 | 34
4 Oct 2010 #22
Natasa, I know what you're saying, but there's a huge difference between saying that no such thing as "intelligence quota" exists, and saying that such a thing does exist but that it is beyond human capability to absolutely measure it accurately and fairly.

Following your rationale, it can actually be broken down far more than just to age categories, in theory it would depend upon an almost infinite number of variables. The whole concept of age as an indicator of social mores, scientific truths et cetera, is an artificial human construct of loose reliability too, since it ignores natural variation. It's basically a human way of understanding and controlling ourselves, serving a worthy purpose, but ultimately not standing 100% to truth.

Um, yeah, a bit of a tangent, but while I'm being skeptical about the absolute reliability of IQ tests, I might as well apply it to your version of the test too.
zetigrek
4 Oct 2010 #23
Natasa, I know what you're saying, but there's a huge difference between saying that no such thing as "intelligence quota" exists, and saying that such a thing does exist but that it is beyond human capability to absolutely measure it accurately and fairly.

Is there really? I've always thought that intelligence is undefined term and we just measure the ability of logical thinking by the iq test.

Btw to the op - do you know that human iq is growing? they have to change the way of counting it to make the avarage always 100 p.
SidWolf 2 | 34
4 Oct 2010 #24
Yeah, that's true, but just semantics really. If we're to define "IQ" as "logical problem solving ability", or whatever, it's still (in my opinion) near impossible to quantify.
Natasa 1 | 580
4 Oct 2010 #25
Natasa, I know what you're saying, but there's a huge difference between saying that no such thing as "intelligence quota" exists, and saying that such a thing does exist but that it is beyond human capability to absolutely measure it accurately and fairly.

I'm using IQ tests, but taking results with caution.
It is useful for what and how it was made, again comparing ppl same age, same culture. Those instruments were not made to do anything MORE than that, and they can't do more. Still.

So, my basic complain here is abuse of it, using the instruments for purposes they were not made for.

I believe there is some biological foundation, some environmental (family) influence, education influence, and so on.

People here are trying to use some EXACT measures ( like IQ 78, IQ 150) comparing for example Chinese with Albanians in a way it is not possible yet. It's not a measure like meter or kilogram.

That is the problem.
Also, because of the fact that underprivileged ppl, born in families with low incomes, hence less close to good education will score less and maybe they have more potential than most, I don't have high opinion about whole idea.

It's helping the system in a way that those who are on the bottom keeps there, privileged ones getting again via organizations like MENSA or obligatory testing again more.

Hey good example are test for job applicants, if HR takes the score as a unquestionable measure of abilities he will maybe miss hiring somebody who scored less because of bad life circumstances , but who could be faster learning and more valuable worker.
guesswho 4 | 1,289
4 Oct 2010 #26
If they (the tests) are measuring intelligence how is it that the same individual gets improved results with practice

Because the tested individual remembers more and more questions and answers quicker and more efficiently.
southern 75 | 7,096
4 Oct 2010 #27
Society has accepted IQ differences silently and tries to flatten their influence.For example why Blacks in USA score consistently under the Asians in standardized tests despite them coming from similar socioeconomic backgrounds?Why society enforces affirmative action?If IQ differences do not exist why do they adopt the affirmative action?It is like a confession from their side that IQ differences do exist.Otherwise the Blacks and Latinos would not have more than 1% of students in US universities( which would happen in case only scores were taken into account for admissions).
SidWolf 2 | 34
4 Oct 2010 #28
Yep, Natasa, I agree with you, and that's basically in line with what I was trying to say, it's like basing intelligence measurement on the standard of one particular cultural background, it's impossible to seperate from cultural influence, and very difficult to get to testing innate intelligence.
Barney 15 | 1,500
4 Oct 2010 #29
Because the tested individual remembers more and more questions and answers quicker and more efficient

They dont use the same test:)
southern 75 | 7,096
4 Oct 2010 #30
It is easy to separate from cultural background.Take black children for example who were adopted by white parents.Their IQ continued to be low in the same levels with the average of black children raised by black parents.So it is genes which determine intelligence a truth that teachers know very well.


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