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What don't you like about Poland or Polish People?


OP AdrianK9 6 | 364
25 Feb 2016 #31
some Poles have embraced materialism too easily and have forgotten or abandoned tradition and nation.

So true. This was much more prevalent in post-communist Poland. There was of course materialism in communist Poland as wanting to have nice things, envying your neighbors new car, etc. is just human. The people were a bit more equal though than they are now so the materialism wasn't as prevalent. Ah I remember the trouble my dad would go through to get AC DC and Black Sabbath Records, VCRs, Levis Jeans, etc. He was a jeweler in communist Poland and my grandparents (his parents) ran a meat business which they still do. By communist standards they were pretty damn well off and had a lot of foreign currency, especially German, hidden away. I remember when I had my first Holy Communion they gave me $1,000 USD as a present. This was a lot of money at the time in the US let alone in Poland. People were shocked that a young kid could be given so much money as a gift.

The class distinction and inequality is crazy in Poland and I would argue that is just as bad, if not possibly worse than in the US. (Yes there is more extreme wealthy people in the US but at least the poor here have access to things like welfare, food stamps, CHIP, rent assistance, etc. In Poland, the welfare is tiny I believe its like 80 or 100 or 120 Eu a month or something like that. I remember reading an article about 'the only Brit' in Poland on welfare.)

Anyway, I'll use my family as a specific example from both mom and dad's side. They run the whole gambit of poor village dwellers to millionaires. Some are very well educated and others are simply extremely cunning and street smart.

Lower class - Agricultural family in a small village - My great aunt from my moms side lives on a farm outside of Walbrzych. She lives on a large pig farm. Although she does have electricity, she did not have indoor plumbing until the late 80s/early 90s. She is poor but since her and her husband run a farm and have a lot of land they are able to eat a lot of the food that they grow and the animals they raise. However, obtaining even a 10 year old car would unrealistic as would taking a vacation outside the country or being able to retire without working and continuing to run the farm. They own a Maluch which her husband actually won in some raffle or something. No formal education.

Middle class - family in a suburb/small town outside of Wroclaw - My cousins live on a farm in Prusice (outside of Wroclaw) and my uncle works for Dolpasz which I believe is a fertilizer company. They are I'd say middle to upper middle class. They have a large multigenerational home, a decent bit of land with a small amount of ducks, chickens, rabbits, goat, geese, etc. They have an older car and most of their belongings are rather old as well. However, they are a very happy family and they do not have to worry where their next meal will come from. They have enough to survive on but they are unable to afford say like a BMW 3-series or a new 60' Samsung. They are able to afford taking local vacations in Poland but a vacation to like Paris or London would be a bit of out their reach unless they saved for it for a long time. The parents are not educated but all the children have graduated college and are working in entry level post-college jobs.

Middle Class #2 - Major in the military - My uncle is a Major in the land forces. When I was a child he took me to his base and I got to ride in a BMP, shoot the ak-47s, sit in a MiG 29 (on the ground of course), etc. I have a ton of pictures from this and it was one of my best memories as a child. Anyway, he lives with his family in a 1 or 2 bedroom apartment in the bloki. He is a very intelligent individual and invented a revolutionary kidney dialysis machine for which he was awarded quite a bit of money as many of the hospitals in Poland and around the world use it. However, after purchasing this condo in the bloki and supporting his childrens' education he has little left. He is of course happy though but his salary as a major does not allow him much luxuries in life. He has an 'average' car and a clean cozy condo but is by no means living in luxury or wealth. My uncle has a magister degree and his children have gone to colleges in Poland.

Rich Class #1 - My grandparents from my fathers side are very wealthy but they do not display their wealth at all. They began amassing wealth during communism as they ran a meat business and of course meat was rationed out. They were able to sell their meat for foreign currency or trade it for items that were rare at the time in Poland like Japanese stereo equipment, Levis jeans, records from the US, etc. They now own a deli/convenience store, metal fabrication shop, a stall in the bazaar (targ) where they sell meat, a hair salon, and several residential properties. Although they do not really display their wealth and live in a pretty average home in Oborniki Slaskie (outside of Wroclaw), they are able to afford quality foreign items that would be too expensive for an average Pole. For example, they are able to afford to travel to the US and Western Europe whereas most Poles will stick to trips to Ukraine and the Black sea, the Balkans, Egypt, Morocco, and other countries that aren't as expensive. They own a turbo diesel Honda CRV (which is a small suv), an older Mercedes 300TD station wagon and also a Mercedes Vito which is basically like a cross between a minivan and a cargo van. The Honda SUV would be considered a luxury item for most Poles. They would be able to afford a million plus dollar home and the newest Mercedes or Bmw but they like to keep a bit lower profile. My grandma still wears her clothes from the 70s and even pantyhose that has holes in it because quite frankly she doesn't care and is more focused on running the businesses. She is more the brains behind the operation. They do not have any formal education but are very very business savvy.

Rich Class #2 - My uncle owns a large hotel in Tychy called Hotel Piramida. It is I believe 9 stories and is shaped like a glass pyramid. This family is definitely in the 1% of Poland. They have a variety of foreign cars like a Land Rover Range Rover and a Porsche Carrerra as a summer car. The uncle was able to afford to send his children to London for a better education. They are able to afford just about anything whereas for an average Pole sending their kids to a private school in London would be a thought that doesn't even occur. My uncle is not educated but his children are.

So there's the whole gambit. I have more examples but you get the point. Like in every society, there is rich and poor. In Poland the inequality is very high when compared to the Nordic Countries or even some of the Baltic Countries. Poland is kind of that middle ground where the people tend to make lower income than say like in England, Germany, and Sweden but are more equal and make more of an average income than say those in Ukraine, Albania, or Russia. We are classified by the CIA as an 'upper middle' income country. Here is a small chart of average GDP per capita - I personally think this is rather high but then of course a person like my uncle who owns a hotel probably makes as much as like 100 people like my poor great aunt.

data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.CD

dolnoslask what city are you from? I am from Wroclaw and have family in Oborniki Slaskie, Trzemnica, Prusice, and Walbrzych.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,163
25 Feb 2016 #32
Adrian, just a small suggestion : this forum is pretty much united by a common loathing of Party members that took advantage of their connections during Communism to amass considerable wealth. Posting constantly about how your grandparents cheated the system by selling meat for hard currency is not a good way to endear yourself to anyone on this forum.
dolnoslask
25 Feb 2016 #33
"dolnoslask what city are you from?"
I live between Boleslawiec and Jelenia Gora, I would never give too many personal details out here on the forum, there are one maybe two known stalkers here , so if you don't want to have to shake the bushes before you go to bed it is best not to give out too much detail.

This i what I don't like about some people who claim to be Polish here on PF

But to be fair the mods are quick to react to any breach of personal information here, sadly they get trolled sometimes when applying the rules and protecting members.

And no I am no angel here either, but I don't go around following people at night because of what they post on the forum.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,163
25 Feb 2016 #34
I live between Boleslawiec and Jelenia Gora

I made the mistake of driving that road once in the middle of winter. Wasn't the wisest of choices...
Luke84 7 | 114
25 Feb 2016 #35
Hey Dolnoslask,

Stalkers? Really, need to watch out for these.. Or maybe just virtual ones...
OP AdrianK9 6 | 364
25 Feb 2016 #36
Adrian, just a small suggestion : this forum is pretty much united by a common loathing of Party members that took advantage of their connections during Communism to amass

No one in my family was in the Communist party and the only person with any contacts in the government is my uncle who is a Major.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,163
25 Feb 2016 #37
No one in my family was in the Communist party

Adrian, I don't know how to break this to you, but anyone owning a meat shop and selling meat for hard currency in those times was almost certainly in the Communist Party. There's no way that the authorities would have allowed such obvious behaviour to exist under their noses without them being very well connected.
OP AdrianK9 6 | 364
25 Feb 2016 #38
You are correct, that is unless a bribe was paid or meat was given to them. Also, this was done in secret and not in the open. Bribes were very common in those times and would range from a small bribe of several dollars (or the equivalent) so that the doctor sees you right away or writes a note excusing you from work to a 'medium size bribe' of perhaps $50, $100 or so to allow for goods from Western Germany to be brought in without being confiscated, to a substantial several thousand dollar bribe to obtain a visa to leave Poland.

It is kind of like the cinkciarzy - the individuals who openly traded and sold dollars and marks. The authorities knew what they were doing but would usually look the other way, especially if a small bribe was paid.
Ktos 16 | 440
25 Feb 2016 #39
Adrian, anyone owning a meat shop and selling meat for hard currency in those times was almost certainly in the Communist Party.

Not quite right, some people had business licences and so on, some people occupied high positions and were not part of communist party either.
OP AdrianK9 6 | 364
25 Feb 2016 #40
Another thing that I dislike about Poland...

the business bureaucracy and all the rep tape!
delphiandomine 88 | 18,163
25 Feb 2016 #41
The authorities knew what they were doing but would usually look the other way, especially if a small bribe was paid.

You honestly think they were anything other than SB agents?

You are correct, that is unless a bribe was paid or meat was given to them.

Bribery wouldn't be enough in this case. It's perfectly true that a bribe was enough to help get you out of some situations, but it's highly unlikely that they would've been allowed to carry on freely without having connections. It's not fashionable these days to admit it, but either they were someone or they had a political patron that protected them.

Bear in mind that if someone owned a successful business that was taking in hard currency without being in the Party/without having a patron, it's likely that someone political would have found out about it and taken it under their control so they could enjoy the profits instead.
OP AdrianK9 6 | 364
25 Feb 2016 #42
You honestly think they were anything other than SB agents?

Yes, I think I know my own family pretty well. It was not just my family. However, yes I do not dispute that you had to have political connections to have a good job, get a visa, etc. or at least give up a pretty substantial bribe. They have known some local politicians maybe at like the equivalent of alderman but it's not like they were on a first name basis with Gomulka or something.
kpc21 1 | 763
25 Feb 2016 #43
expensive gasoline

Not really for European standards. Maybe you tried to compare them with the prices in the US... In Poland it's still cheaper than in most western European countries, in some central European countries it's also more expensive.

expensive electronics

Prices comparable with the whole Europe. Maybe again you are trying to compare them with the US.

Although when you take into account that people in Poland earn less than in Germany, France or in the UK, then these things will be indeed more expensive.

Drivers are crazy, but not so crazy as in the south-east of Europe. Some of the roads are in a bad condition, but they are improving. People wearing socks for sandals... Because it's just more comfortable? Only for some time it's considered bad and totally against the fashion.

People who are really religious Catholics are quite a big group, but I think that there is more of those, who declare to be Catholics, but in fact they haven't been to church for a Holy Mass for many years.

Also, they will use the word 'Russian' to frequently describe something as 'low quality' - i.e. ten samochod chodzi jak Ruski traktor - this car is running like a Russian tractor.

Hearing such a comparison (also "ruski czołg" is a popular one) I have rather a feeling that the described object is old and noisy, but also robust. In this case - just noisy.

This comparizon "Russian = of bad quality" comes from that before all the cheap and poor-quality stuff started to come from China, you could buy such things on local markets, where they were brought by east-European guys. Now you also often call such products "Chinese", even if they come from other east-Asian countries like Vietnam, and even though also many good-quality products are produced in China.
whocares
25 Feb 2016 #44
I agree with some of the above posts.
Some drivers and business related things need improvement.
porky pok 2 | 127
25 Feb 2016 #45
many good-quality products are produced in China.

like I-Phone?
polishinvestor 1 | 361
25 Feb 2016 #46
Chinese make want the West demanded. We wanted cheap so we got cheap. But they are just as capable in making high quality products to compete on that front with the West. The whole package. Lenovo is a case in point. We just stereotype Chinese products as cheap and of low quality.
JackieS - | 1
25 Feb 2016 #47
I think the matter of folks in Poland thinking those who go to the US as instantly rich goes back many years. My grandfather came to the US in early 1900s. He saved letters from his family who remained in Poland who assumed he had a lot of cash and was constantly writing him to ask for him to send money back to them. These letters date from the early 1900s through the 1920s.

One thing I don't really have an opinion about, but certainly an observation is complaining. I am of Polish ancestry in the US. I know many folks in the US of Polish ancestry. I also know a fair number of folks who immigrated here from Poland. Their dates of immigration have been from the 1980s through the 2000s. They all, we all, seemingly love to complain about anything & everything. This seems to be one unifying factor of Polish people that I've observed.
OP AdrianK9 6 | 364
25 Feb 2016 #48
Yes I am comparing the cost of gasoline and electronics in Poland to that in the US - it is much more expensive. I believe in Holland gasoline is the most expensive out of the EU countries.

I laughed when I read 'ruski czolg' lol. Yes that certainly would imply that an item is strong. Some of the Polish contractors in the US will use the term '.... zrob/zrobonie po Rusku!' Meaning that something was done to cut corners, perhaps not as quality but with lots of ingenuity nonetheless. One particular example I can think of is 'lanie cement po Rusku' which I guess is an easier quicker way to pour concrete? I don't know, I'm not an expert contractor but I'll ask my dad next time i see him.

Another thing that I'm not a big fan of in Poland is paying for things I'm not use to paying for like using the bathroom and pokrzywa aka nettle. That crap is everywhere!

And yes, Polish people loooove to complain but I think that is just a human thing.

Another thing that kind of bothers me is the poem murzynek bambo... really? you're going to tell make a kid's poem about a black kid in africa running up a tree and scared to take baths so his blackness doesn't wash out lol. at least though they do call him a 'koleszka'
dolnoslask
25 Feb 2016 #49
" pokrzywa aka nettle" when we were exiled in England we used to go picking nettles, it used to make a nice cup of tea it would also make a ounce of tea last longer when mixed. To be honest I have not seen this done in Poland, can anyone tell me if pokrzywa is also used as a tea substitute in Poland?, errm not sure if i am off topic.
OP AdrianK9 6 | 364
25 Feb 2016 #50
Yes, I believe I saw some nettle in my mom's tea cabinet. I think it's used for like upset stomach.

There is also a great shampoo made out of nettle that they sell in the US but is a Polish product. Makes your hair feel great and only costs $4-$5 for a 1 liter bottle.
terri 1 | 1,663
26 Feb 2016 #51
Re: nettles. I was advised by my doctor to have nettle tea as nettles contain a lot of IRON necessary for good blood.
OP AdrianK9 6 | 364
26 Feb 2016 #52
That's another thing we can add to the likes and dislikes of Poland...

I love how Poland and Polish people (especially the older generations) have so many natural and homemade cures. A lot of these are in tea form.

However, sometimes this can go a bit too far as many Poles (again, more so common with older generations) have pseudo-scientific beliefs especially when it comes to health.

For example, many older generations of Poles state that you will get sick if you go out in the cold, you can get sick if you don't dry your hair completely. Stuff like that. Perhaps, yes if you go out in the cold without proper clothing or go to sleep without totally drying your hair it can lower your immune system making it more easy to catch a bug. However, I highly doubt that just being cold will make you sick.
Ktos 16 | 440
26 Feb 2016 #53
I highly doubt that just being cold will make you sick.

Are you stupid or something? I am not old but I have respect for elderly wisdom unlike in USA where older people are thought of as useless waste of space. Yes, you can get sick if you go out in the cold and you feel cold, that is what the elderly Polish mean. Also, Iin Polish weather if you don't dry your hair completely you can indeed get not just sick but very sick, even slightest miss can create serious problems if prolonged exposure to cold endures and hair is not completely dry.
OP AdrianK9 6 | 364
26 Feb 2016 #54
Are you stupid or something? I am not old but I have respect for elderly wisdom unlike in USA where older people are thought of as useless waste of space.

It is my fault then for not using better examples. I was merely stating that oftentimes the elderly will be gung ho about psuedo-scientific beliefs especially about health even if there is science to prove that their ideas are false. Nonetheless, resorting to name calling and making an assumption about such a diverse nation with over 300 million people and their treatment of their elderly is stupid. Yes, the nursing home industry is very large here and many people do unfortunately put their parents in a nursing home to make it easier for themselves. I think this is terrible. My parents are the 2 most important people in the world to me. I would rather hire a nurse to stay with them and the only way I would put them in a nursing home is if they wanted to go to one which would most likely only be because their health is so bad that they need to be under constant medical observation. I pray to God that this never happens.

Yes, you can get sick if you go out in the cold and you feel cold, that is what the elderly Polish mean.

Being cold and feeling cold will not directly make you sick. However, there is a strong correlation between being cold/feeling cold which CAN lower your immune system (again not automatically WILL lower your immunse system) and also CAN creates an environment more hospitable to the rhinovirus which will then make you sick as the rhinovirus tends to prefer dry nasal passages.

In my statement I wrote that they believe you 'WILL GET SICK' while in yours you wrote that you 'CAN GET SICK.' Well, yes that is obvious that you CAN get sick if you go out in the cold and are cold because your immune system is lowered. However, many (again, not all) elderly Poles believe that going outside and feeling cold WILL automatically make you sick.

webmd.com/cold-and-flu/features/cold-and-flu-iq
smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/there-scientific-reason-cold-weather-could-cause-colds-180953817/?no-ist

'If you'd like to get technical, a cold can be called nasopharyngitis, rhinopharyngitis or acute coryza. Often, it's an infection with rhinovirus, but more than 200 other viruses can cause the coughing, sore throat, runny nose and sneezing that we call the common cold.

Also:

Cold weather also does not cause colds -- at least not directly. Despite its name, the common cold is not caused by cold. "It doesn't have any effect at all," says Tallman. "There's no correlation." In fact, you may be more likely to "catch your death of cold" indoors

Also, Iin Polish weather if you don't dry your hair completely you can indeed get not just sick but very sick, even slightest miss can create serious problems if prolonged exposure to cold endures and hair is not completely dry.

Yes, if you don't dry your hair and go outside in the cold weather you CAN get sick and you CAN get hypothermia. Again, doesn't necessarily mean you will get sick but the chances are higher. I wrote about not drying your hair before bed - not being outside. Yes, you CAN get sick from not properly drying your hair indoors because it creates an environment more hospitable to bacteria/viruses that cause the common cold making it harder for the body to fight back, but again it does not mean you automatically will get sick like many elderly Poles believe.

Even my mom tells me 'Adrian nie siedz na zimnym betonie bo zachorujesz'

Tale: You'll get sick if you go out in the cold with wet hair. The truth: Exposure to viruses-not skipping the blow-dryer-causes cold and flu. "Scientists have studied this really well," says Vreeman. "They've put cold viruses in the noses of two groups of people.Nov 6, 2011

health.com/health/gallery/0,,20306931_5,00.html

abcnews.go.com/Health/ColdandFluQuestions/cold-flu-wives-tales-debunked/story?id=14884135

webmd.com/cold-and-flu/features/cold-and-flu-iq
This article even argues that you catch colds once your immune system is lowered. Yes, the cold is caused by a virus, most commonly rhinovirus but of course there are others. By giving a virus, or bacteria like in the case of influenza, a hospitable environment i.e. a lowered immune system, dry nasal passages, etc. increases the chances of your body not being able to fight off the virus/bacteria and hence getting sick. It doesn't necessarily mean it will always happen - your immune system can be weakened and you can still fight it off just like you can be perfectly healthy and rested and still catch a bug and get sick. However, creating a hospitable environment for the bacteria/virus increase your chances of getting sick and your body being unable to fight.

I am simply saying that many times elderly Poles believe that being cold/having wet hair/etc. will automatically make you sick. That is not the case, but it does raise the chances of getting sick.
porky pok 2 | 127
26 Feb 2016 #55
As someone said in past, people who traveled and worked in US back in 70/80's even 90's made a little fortune,

Still they make that little fortune. working 12 hr 6/7 days living in a shared apartments saving?Infact even now I see people doing the same and saving around 2000$ a month living/doing the same.Where in the world can you be doing a unskilled job working illegally save that much?And Polish women taking care of the elderly even save more,I know some who come here on 6 month visa once a year and take home 10k$ plus presents.I am sure no other country could they do that.
terri 1 | 1,663
27 Feb 2016 #56
A man who has never been hungry, will never understand a hungry man.
Kezcaisim 1 | 37
27 Feb 2016 #57
I dislike the Polish youth being fascinated with degenerate Western (specially American) culture.
Ktos 16 | 440
27 Feb 2016 #58
This is my problem too, there few positives about western culture like human rights and animal rights agenda but most of it just sucks and in Poland we tend to absorb all of it like a sponge without filtering.

but again it does not mean you automatically will get sick like many elderly Poles believe.

No, but the chances in Poland are high of getting sick if one does not dry hair while being indoors, especially if it is older person or a child, so its a precaution and elderly people are correct, are you getting it once and for all or you are going to be arguing with Polish people about it forever? Same people who know their environment better than you or maybe you know better? Maybe you will tell me how it is in Poland professor?

However, there is a strong correlation between being cold/feeling cold which CAN lower your immune system (again not automatically WILL lower your immunse system)

You know what? You sound like a nit picking try-hard and when you do that you begin to sound stupid, you are trying to overthrow a perfectly good precautionary method of staying safe and warm and free of cold which in Poland is an absolute must and you are trying to twist and make it so scientific to make yourself sound clever where in fact you just made it sound idiotic. Nothing is 100% certain, one child out of ten may even stay outside with half the clothes others are wearing and not get sick, wow what a discovery you made! We are not talking absolutes here but general precaution and I just refrained from yet again calling you that name that you call someone who is ignoring the knowledge right in front of them.
Agreatergood
27 Feb 2016 #59
As the OP stated there are many wonderful things about Poland and Polish people. If I have to choose two things about Polish society that irks me it has to be the negative attitude which many Poles adopt by default. Number two would be the low esteem of many Poles who accept the opinion of foreigners on all things Polish. Stand up and be proud, Poland has many Positives going for it, the problem is many Poles just dont see it. Absurd the future.
goofy
27 Feb 2016 #60
One thing that i really deslike is the amount of people that look at everything coming to us from the West as "progress that we need to adopt".

We have our own traditions, moral code and history. We should accept eveyr new fanabery of the western "elités".


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