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Lack of human rights in Poland?


szczecinianin 4 | 320
6 Dec 2013 #91
Here you are showing some ability to 'debate'. :)

Yes, very often the evidence comes only from the police themselves.

However, we are talking about a hundred-and-fifty arrests, at a high profile match, in the centre of a capital city. It stretches credulity that a major incident could have taken place without anyone other than the police witnessing it.

I'd also point out that I have personally seen some football related disturbances, both as a fan and as a photographer, which gives me some insight. I have also seen the first hand accounts of those arrested, and they strike me as being plausible.

szczecinianin:In fact your argument have been based on assumption that Lazio fans would get serious weapon (presumably swords and pistols) to mean business.

No, I'm not. You're off into strawman land again. Try harder.
Ironside 53 | 12,420
6 Dec 2013 #92
Not being mentally retarded was certainly one of the criteria,

Nicely done

he majority of the neo-Nazi scum who 'marched' in Warsaw on Nov 11 would fail to satisfy.

There is no need to insult decent patriotic people and their families.

I have also seen the first hand accounts of those arrested, and they strike me as being plausible.

so basically the police told you that is not your business and arrest Lazio fans have cooked up story you believed in.

t stretches credulity that a major incident could have taken place without anyone other than the police witnessing it.

Could be a preventive action so you don't need a major incident.
Harry
6 Dec 2013 #93
The decent patriotic people went on the march led by the president of Poland.
Ironside 53 | 12,420
6 Dec 2013 #94
No those were government employees.
Do not insult people you know nothing about Harry.
Paulina 16 | 4,373
6 Dec 2013 #95
As you might say, 'a good friend told me'.

Oh no, no, no, I'm not going to get you away with this so easily.
I provided a BBC link in some of our previous discussions, you provide a reliable link too.
If you don't, it will mean you're talking out of your ass, as you people say.

You didn't want to look at the evidence the last time we had a discussion, despite repeated requests to do so, so why this time?

Again, prove that I didn't want to look at some evidence you provided or stop lying.
And whatever you think I did or didn't do in previous discussions, this doesn't give you the right to give false information to people on this forum.

So, I won't let you weasel out of this.
Provide links.

That's why I don't take you seriously as a poster.

Szczecinianin, I really don't care whether someone who claims being stabbed with a kitchen knife is a laughing matter takes me as a serious poster or not, let's put it that way :))

You've compromised yourself to such an extent that I don't consider you as an equal debater anymore, yet I'm ready to continue debate. And I have arguments, unlike you, I guess.

I must say I'm disappointed, with every discussion you seem to show your true colours more and more.

I am reasonably confident about what I have written, as I have researched it all thoroughly.

Really? Have you researched stabbings with the use of kitchen knives too? Probably also "thoroughly"? lol :)

But I think attempting to convince an 'Ironside light' type poster such as yourself would be a waste of my time and energy as you don't appear to have an open mind in such matters.

:D Are you kidding me? You're not even willing to provide any link! It's laughable.

I believe that's what most of them did.

You "believe"?

However, we are talking about a hundred-and-fifty arrests, at a high profile match, in the centre of a capital city. It stretches credulity that a major incident could have taken place without anyone other than the police witnessing it.

It depends at what time it happened, where, and how do you know there were no other witnesses anyway?
And how come was it a "high profile match"?

According to this article:

300 Lazio fans came to the capital. Half of them arrested now

Although Lazio players on the field did not give any chances the Warsaw Legia, most of fans with the Eternal City will not return to their homes in good spirits, for now anyway is not even clearly known when they will return, because they stay is slightly extended.

To the capital came almost a 300-man team of Roman fans, but more than half of them do not reach the stadium. The result of thursday's match they learned from the police.

As we reported yesterday, police detained three groups of hooligans from Lazio. Today we know more details. Including, as it turned out yesterday morning, there were as many as 149.

warszawa.gazeta.pl/warszawa/1,34862,15049427,Do_stolicy_przyjechalo_300_fanow_Lazio__Polowa_zatrzymana.html

300 Lazio fans came to Warsaw, and half of them was detained.
The first gruop of Lazio fans was arrested on Wednesday evening in front of a hotel where there was some kind of brawl. My guess is that the hotel staff called the police.

17 people were arrested and most of them had knives, brass knuckles on them, and one guy even an axe.
And that's the charge - carrying dangerous tools in public places.

Two other groups were arrested on Thursday afternoon (one group - 50 people, the other - 80). They were throwing rocks, bottles and dust bins at the police. Some of them started putting balaclavas on their heads.

One police car was damaged.

I'm not sure what's so unbelievable about this?

Szczecinianin, you wrote that the Polish police are a bunch of incompetent cowards and that you doubt whether the Warsaw police are the brightest. What kind of thorough research gave you the right to make such sweeping and offensive generalisations about so many people?

I'll ask you a simple question.

If the Polish police are in general such lazy, stupid and incompetent cowards then how come Poland is a safe country?
Why do I read quite often here on PF what a safe country Poland is. It's the Westerners who often write that Poland is safer than their own city or town back home.

Why prisons are so full that people sentenced to jail time have to wait in line to get into prison?
Who's catching all those people, who's providing the evidence?
Leprechauns? Invisible elves? Fairies? Aliens? lol
Maybe you've caught them all by yourself?
Come on...

Considering that Poland is a poor country in comparison to the West and the Polish police is poor in comparison to the Western police, underfunded, unstaffed, not as well equipped as their Western counterparts, and not as respected as the police in the West, they must be doing something right if I feel safe in this country.

Taring with the same brush so many people doing hard, not well paid and often dangerous work is simply unfair.
szczecinianin 4 | 320
6 Dec 2013 #96
Again, prove that I didn't want to look at some evidence you provided or stop lying.

I'm not lying though, am I. I asked you time and time again to actually watch the documentary you were complaining so bitterly about, I even provided you with a link to enable you to do so, but you refused, and kept writing, "a good friend told me, over and over and over again."

Therefore, I have good reason to believe you are not seriously interested in 'evidence'.

What interests you is whether you believe someone has said something 'good' or 'bad' about Poland, and this is how you go about forming your judgements.
Paulina 16 | 4,373
6 Dec 2013 #97
I'm not lying though, am I.

Yes, you are. Or you simply don't remember what I wrote.

I asked you time and time again to actually watch the documentary you were complaining so bitterly about, I even provided you with a link to enable you to do so, but you refused,

No, I didn't refuse! lol I even wrote that I'll probably watch it some time :D I never wrote that I don't want to watch it or that I'll never watch it.

and kept writing, "a good friend told me, over and over and over again."

No, I didn't keep writing about it "over and over again".

Therefore, I have good reason to believe you are not seriously interested in 'evidence'.

Well, szczecinianin, I have good reasons to think that you're not objective and that you're prejudiced.
Still, I believe there's still hope for you and that you can change :)

What interests you is whether you believe someone has said something 'good' or 'bad' about Poland, and this is how you go about forming your judgements.

You're talking nonsense. I form my judgements based on people's comments. Sweeping, unfair generalisations are sweeping, unfair generalisations. Talking nonsense is talking nonsense. Not providing links is not providing links. Giving false information is giving false information. And if you must know, you're the author of one of the most shocking comments for me personally coming from Westerners I've ever read on this forum. No, not in this thread. Although you bewildered me here with your comments too.

Again, whatever you think I did or didn't do in previous discussions is not a reason to give people here on PF false information.

Provide links to back up what you wrote.
szczecinianin 4 | 320
6 Dec 2013 #98
is not a reason to give people here on PF false information.

The information isn't false. You refused to watch the links I posted and relied on what a friend had told you. You even admit this in the post above.
Paulina 16 | 4,373
6 Dec 2013 #99
The information isn't false.

Then provide links.

You refused to watch the links I posted and relied on what a friend had told you.

No, I didn't refuse to watch any links you posted. And I simply repeated what Lenka's friend told her about destroyed door.

You have admitted this in the post above.

What on Earth are you talking about? What have I admitted?
szczecinianin 4 | 320
7 Dec 2013 #100
No, I didn't refuse to watch any links you posted.

You did, and you admitted having done so. Imho. any further interaction with you is pointless.

A first hand account from one of the Lazio fans arrested:

We were surrounded by a police cordon, who checked our identity cards and took our pictures. This all happened in a relaxed manner, without any shouting or bad language. There were around 100 - 120 people (8 Poles, 2 Danes, the rest Polish) and we did what the police told us to do.

sz-n.com/2013/12/detained-by-the-police-in-rome-a-lazio-fan-tells-his-story/
Paulina 16 | 4,373
7 Dec 2013 #101
You did,

No, I didn't. Prove otherwise (a link and a quote).

and you admitted having done so.

No, I didn't! LOL I wrote that I didn't refuse to watch any links you provided. Are you blind?

Imho. any further interaction with you is pointless.

LMAO

You have no shame, do you? :D

As I already wrote, I won't let you weasel out of this so easily :)
Provide a link to back up what you wrote - that knives, etc. were found in hotel rooms, not on Lazio fans.
sobieski 106 | 2,118
7 Dec 2013 #102
A first hand account from one of the Lazio fans arrested:

Why do you keep on going defending a gang of knife-carrying Lazio kiboli? And why do you think carrying a knife in public is perfectly normal?

They got their head and butt kicked pre-emptively by Warsaw police - whose duty is the protection of the Warsaw citizens (which they did not do during the Nazi invasion on 11.11, but that is another matter).

In Belgium we had no hooligan violence since many years (at least no home-grown). Preventive arrest is the clue here and zero tolerance.
szczecinianin 4 | 320
7 Dec 2013 #103
Why do you keep on going defending a gang of knife-carrying Lazio kiboli? And why do you think carrying a knife in public is perfectly normal?

Why do you think normal fans should be arrested at random?

I don't think any of those arrested on the day of the match were carrying knives.

If all you have to go on is prejudice, there is little or no sense in debating with you.
sobieski 106 | 2,118
7 Dec 2013 #104
Think. The duty of the Warsaw police is to protect its citizens.
szczecinianin 4 | 320
7 Dec 2013 #105
From people who weren't actually threatening its citizens? It's your turn to 'think'.

The action of the Polish police had nothing to do with crime prevention.

It was a cheap propaganda exercise to make the public believe the police were doing their job effectively, by arresting a harmless group of normal fans, and portraying them as something they were not.

They don't have either the bravery or the competence to take on the real thugs.
sobieski 106 | 2,118
7 Dec 2013 #106
You keep on defending knife-carrying. Google "Lazio" and "violence". And see what comes out.
And think. Why in democratic countries with a policy of pre-emptive arrests, zero tolerance, hooligan terrorism has been routed?
szczecinianin 4 | 320
7 Dec 2013 #107
You keep on defending knife-carrying. Google "Lazio" and "violence". And see what comes out.

Google just about any major football club and violence and see what comes out.

And think. Why in democratic countries with a policy of pre-emptive arrests, zero tolerance, hooligan terrorism has been routed?

That's a very good question.

I think that kind of thing has worked very well in the UK.

It was achieved by the UK police targetting the UK's own thugs, and not by looking for scapegoats from abroad.
sobieski 106 | 2,118
7 Dec 2013 #108
That's a very good question.

Nope. That came from zero-tolerance, massive pre-emptive arrests.
Belgian police btw take a very dim view of people carrying knives, and regard them as a threat.
szczecinianin 4 | 320
7 Dec 2013 #109
Belgian police btw take a very dim view of people carrying knives, and regard them as a threat.

Good. But none of the hundred-and-fifty Lazio fans arrested on the day of the match were carrying knives.
Paulina 16 | 4,373
8 Dec 2013 #110
Szczecinianin, are you friends with Macierewicz? :D I assume you have some kind of crystal ball at your disposal? :D
OMG...

If all you have to go on is prejudice, there is little or no sense in debating with you.

The pot calling the kettle black :D
As we see here:

It was a cheap propaganda exercise to make the public believe the police were doing their job effectively, by arresting a harmless group of normal fans, and portraying them as something they were not.

And you know that how? :D
How do you know they were harmless, how on Earth do you know they weren't carrying knives?
You simply don't know that.
szczecinianin 4 | 320
8 Dec 2013 #111
Szczecinianin, are you friends with Macierewicz?

I'll humour you for once. Supposing the Polish president and his entourage had disappeared in Russia, without any evidence of a plane crash, what should we believe then?

Would you just accept the word of the Russians that a plane crash had happened?
szczecinianin 4 | 320
8 Dec 2013 #113
True. And no-one need be arrested just for trying to go to one.
Szczerbaty 4 | 49
8 Dec 2013 #114
I was rather thinking that people don't need to take a knife/weapon to watch a match.
szczecinianin 4 | 320
8 Dec 2013 #115
Very true. I also think the police shouldn't arrest those not carrying knives for no reason at all. I think the police should arrest criminals and not ordinary citizens.

What do you think?
Szczerbaty 4 | 49
8 Dec 2013 #116
What do you think?

Well of course.

I find football fans truly fascinating. What is it that drives a person to take a weapon to a football match? And what drives people to use them there?
szczecinianin 4 | 320
8 Dec 2013 #117
What is it that drives a person to take a weapon to a football match? And what drives people to use them there?

And why do the Polish police not arrest the real thugs? Well that's something of a 'no brainer'. I know who I'd feel more confident about arresting:





Ironside 53 | 12,420
8 Dec 2013 #118
And why do the Polish police not arrest the real thugs?

Who are real thugs according to you.

I=S( I think you should start a thread "Poland According to szcze")
szczecinianin 4 | 320
8 Dec 2013 #119
Who are real thugs according to you.

The images in my previous post should provide a few visual clues. ;)
Ironside 53 | 12,420
8 Dec 2013 #120
aha so fans of soccer in Poland are thugs contrary to soccer fans in Italy. Splendid, now I know.


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