Lack of human rights in Poland?

Yes you can. You have no idea what you are talking about.

The police doesn't have to prove to you the guilt or not of the fans, they have to prove it to a judge.

If you don't like the laws and how they are applied, tough ****.

You don't arrest let alone charge people as a preemptive measure. It goes against all concepts of justice.

Would you arrest all men on the grounds that they are capable of rape?


'Read' being the key word here. But no serious damage to persons or property reported.

I mean what I wrote. You refuse to look at evidence when it doesn't suit your argument.

You don't have any basic conception of 'justice', do you. What is relevant to any case is what the person or persons concerned did, and not the actions of others some years previously.

Yes they do, that the law.

Fair enough. Who knows, you might be a potential Brevik. Better safe than sorry, eh.

Bring the charge against them to the court.


hear hear!


Look who is talking. Why don't you stab yourself three times in your guts with a kitchen knife but no cheating and then came back here and tell us all about laughing it off.


hahahha!

With that said, banning orders, confiscation of passports and mandatory reporting to police stations on certain dates have played a large roll in getting Britain's football hooligan problem under control. I just wish that the Poles would ask for some help with dealing with their problem.

You understand attempted, murder, rape, going equipped for a crime, planning a terrorsit attack, association with criminal gangs are all jail-able offenses

Football hooligans are treated even more harshly


theguardian/commentisfree/libertycentral/2010/jun/17/football-hooliganism-laws

They didn't arrest them straight away after leaving airport or whatever. They arrested them after being attacked by them.


No, but I would arrest a man throwing things at me :)


Yes, "read", szczecinianin, since I wasn't there and, may I remind you - you weren't there either.
I read and you're doing some prejudiced guesswork.


One of the Polish hools was arrested and sentenced to prison for offending a police officer during the Independence march.
It was all over the news.


No, I don't. Plenty of people do that on this forum, but I sure try not to do that at all.
So prove otherwise or stop lying about me and making unfounded, unprovoked, off-topic personal attacks.


I have a basic and even an advanced conception of law and justice. Lazio fans attacked the police. If they didn't, there are courts to decide about this. The court will decide whether the police acted against the law, not me or you. I haven't been there, you haven't been there either and yet you act like you not only been there but even have some access to policemen thoughts.


:D


Me too.


You have absolutely no idea what they knew or they didn't know. Just as I don't.


Probably you're prejudiced. No, wait... I'm pretty sure you are.


You are on the same page with PiS, right-wingers, the Independence march organisers, hools and neo-Nazis then. Just saying :)

You know what...
According to you people the Polish police are lazy, stupid and must be doing everything wrong.
But I remember watching riots in Paris some years ago, cars burning, etc. and basically no police in sight...
Not so long ago - riots in London. Also basically no police in sight, judging by what I saw on BBC World, and I remember a small unit of police backing away from people throwing stuff at them.

Some buildings were burned, I guess we all remember a famous picture of a Polish woman jumping through a window from a burning building.

So, is the French and British police lazy, stupid, must be doing things wrong and can't be trusted to protect the law-abiding citizens and their property?

I'd say that they should start by making it very clear that if a team's supporters are involved with a single incident, then their team instantly has to play the next match behind closed doors at home. A second offence should result in the stadium being closed for the season. Teams would be far less willing to accommodate hooligans if they knew that was going to happen - Polish teams simply don't have the money to be able to play a whole season behind closed doors.

But then - when the links between some hooligans and the authorities go very deep, you have to wonder exactly who is being paid off and how.

Exactly. That way it would be much easier to deal with the ONR scum and other "patriots". Polish police has a poor record in dealing with such animals.

That said and done - anyone thinking that walking with a knife on the street is the norm....is just not normal...


Nope. You arrest them before they can destroy and attack. The legal niceties can be sorted out later on.

Normal fans? Why?

Paulina, all that's lacking in your mountain of irrelevancies is any kind of proof that those arrested had done anything wrong .....

150+ arrests, no damage, no-one injured, no nothing.

If anyone can show me any damage or injuries caused by the Lazio 'hooligans' in Warsaw, then I'll change my opinion that Polish police are a bunch of incompetent cowards.

This is not the first time this week that you've displayed your xenophobia against Poles.


I have to agree with Paulina on this one. You should try listening to her and not just countering her opinions.
You always try to win the arguement don't you? It doesn't matter whether you're right or wrong, does it?
If 'football fans' are carrying weapons it's usually because they intend to use them.
I don't see a problem with pro-active policing in this case (although I am aware what Paulina has said about the arrests occuring after the Police being attacked).

Yes, I think that is problem here.

Either there is evidence of wrong-doing on the part of those arrested or there is not.

Either the Polish police are competent or they are not.

Or should the Polish police be allowed to just do as they please without being criticised, for fear of offending Poles?

Whether I am right or wrong, or rather whether the Italians arrested were guilty of wrongdoing, is all that interests me.

Why not confine your comments to the facts, which are that 150+ Italians were arrested without any serious disturbances having taken place.


The 'weapons' were allegedly found in hotel rooms. Those allegedly carrying them were deported to Italy before the match. None of the main group of supporters who were arrested on the day of the match were carrying weapons.

I don't trust the Polish police. Do you know about the incident in Gdynia, where a group of Mexican competitors at the tall ships races were attacked by football hooligans? (This was in August). The police didn't intervene, and arrested the competitors rather than the hooligans. The following day they falsely claimed it was the Mexicans who started the violence.

The incident led to the disciplinary proceedings against senior officers.

If you don't believe me I can provide evidence. And if I provide the evidence will you withdraw the allegations of xenophobia?

One thing though- police has the right to keep ANYONE for 48 hours. That's what they did. No laws were broken. If you come to Poland you have to expect to be treate according to Polish law.

Can anyone be kept for 48 hours without charge?
That's ridiculous.

Yes, 48 hours for everyone. After that they have to go to court or release you.
You can go to court and sue for unreasonable arrest.

Let's hope that some of those arrested make use of this right, then.

Why too long? too short? In the UK is up to 96 hours without charge. For terror suspects its 14 days (Lazio fans have been suspected of terrorist offenses in the past and they are neo-Nazi). Asylum seekers can spend years in detention.

gov.uk/arrested-your-rights/how-long-you-can-be-held-in-custody

In the USA you can be arrest, spirited away and deported to a third country without any notification of anyone. Over stay your visa and its straight to jail for days, weeks or months without trial.

What, all million or so of them?

Brits have got form for hooliganism.

Would you therefore lock up anyone carrying a British passport as a 'preemptive measure'?

There is a link to polish Lazio unofficial site. One of local fans also been arrested: sslazio.pl/index.php?s=news&id=2698

I'm sorry, szczecinianin, but you're not a judge and I'm not a prosecutor in this "case" and I'm not obliged to provide you with evidence lol

You're being ridiculous, I wasn't there, I wasn't even a witness of what happened, just as you weren't.

Noone has to get injured to be arrested! All you have to do is to attack a police officer.
In Germany you can get a fine for littering the sidewalk, ffs.

And, excuse me, "the Polish police"? So it's now the Polish police in general, not only the Warsaw police, huh? What's next? Policemen of Polish decent around the world? :D


Szczecinianin, at the very start you have already judged and hanged the whole Polish police without looking at any evidence!
You don't know what happened.
You have no evidence that the police did something wrong, that their actions were uncalled for.


The police should do whatever possible in the frames of law to protect people from harm. Not as you please or as I please.
If the police did something wrong they'll answer before court for this.
I don't find criticism offending, not so long ago you could hear the criticism of the police for how they handled the Independence march from the news presenter at Fakty TVN, that's the biggest private TV station in Poland.

Don't worry, szczecinianin, Poles have brains too, we even have the intellectual capacity to criticise Poles and things in Poland (LOL).
But we also have the intellectual capacity to recognise prejudices and prejudiced people.
And that's what I don't like about you.
No, I'm not only basing my opinion on what you wrote in this thread, there were other times too.
Although, I must admit, what you wrote about laughing off being stabbed with a kitchen knife was really, I mean really pathetic on your part.

I also wonder if you were so eagerly defending Polish football "fans" if it was them who'd claim they're innocent and were doing absolutely nothing?

I somehow suspect you'd be praising the Polish police for dealing with neo-Nazi scum. Who cares about evidence if it's Poles, right? :)


I've already asked you where did you read that knives, brass knuckles and an axe were found in hotel rooms.
You haven't answered.
So I'm asking you again.
Where did you read those things were found in hotel rooms?
I've read in articles that they were found on Lazio fans, not in their hotel rooms.


Any links?

And what do you mean by that "the police didn't intervene"? Policemen were standing there and watching Mexicans being beat up?
The police didn't come despite someone called them?
You know it took place on a beach? There was no police there. And that was the main allegation against the Gdynia police, that they didn't secure the beach despite they knew there was going to be a match. I guess noone thought that kibole can go to the beach and make trouble.

And that's why, as far as I can remember, the head of police in Gdynia resigned.

As you might say, 'a good friend told me'.

You didn't want to look at the evidence the last time we had a discussion, despite repeated requests to do so, so why this time?

That's why I don't take you seriously as a poster.

I am reasonably confident about what I have written, as I have researched it all thoroughly.

But I think attempting to convince an 'Ironside light' type poster such as yourself would be a waste of my time and energy as you don't appear to have an open mind in such matters.

Lazio is a club whose "fans" are known for their extreme violence. The obligation of the Warsaw police was to protect the city and its people from this kind of animals.

Wearing any knife in public is idiot. People who mean well do not carry knifes. If the police would not have intervened and these "fans" would attack ordinary bystanders and start destroying the city, then there would have been a problem.

After all, they could have gone peacefully to the stadion and back to their hotel.
Why do you keep defending such scum? I simply do not understand this.

I believe that's what most of them did.

I don't unquestioningly accept the police's version of events.

There is no third party evidence, apart from that of the police themselves, of the fans having caused serious disorder on the day of the match.

Btw, I don't like your use of words such as 'scum' and 'animals'. Lazio are a big club with literally millions of supporters. They may have a lunatic fringe, but most of their fans are normal people.

Quite right, they were actually Nazi collaborators.

Personally I'd say that the fact people are allowed to openly display in Warsaw the banners of an organisation which worked closely with the Nazis and organised a pogrom against Warsaw's Jews in 1940 shows that people here have excellent human rights (in particular the right to display their stupidity).

They were never Nazi collaborators, that Soviet lies.


That is nonsense Harry Germans organized pogroms in occupied Poland especially in 1940.


Like people who believe in Soviet lies and propaganda about their victim.

What is the difference between them burning the rainbow and waving Polish flags in front of them...and the Hitlerjugend burning books?
Btw...you as an expert on Polish patriotism (of course not living in Poland, not paying taxes here), what is your opinion of the Brigada Świętokrzyśka?

Er, the first reports about them collaborating with the Nazis come from 1940, i.e. while the Nazis and Soviets were still the best of friends (officially).


The reports from the Jews who lived in Warsaw and were the targets of the Easter pogrom are very clear that the people who committing the crimes were Poles and that German participation was pretty much limited only to filming the events.


Most of the scum who trashed Warsaw during the neo-Nazi march wouldn't have been let into the Hitlerjugend.

Who told you that they burned that rainbow rubbish? Not at all, any evidence to the contrary?


I don't know, you tell me. You are making those connections. Are all Belgian schooled in Soviet rhetoric since the young ago or only you.]


Why is with you connecting patriotism with taxes? I avid taxes as I can because nobody ask me for my consent on what those taxes are gonna be spend or how big taxes are gonna be. i don't wont some bureaucrat making away with my money. I don't agree with Polish government and its policy and I would be glad not to get conned by their money extortion scam.


Patriotic brigade which have done a great job in protecting local populations against Soviet bands and Germans. Unfortunately they have been forced to withdrawn in the face of overwhelming Red Army and NKVD divisions activities. That saved a few thousand of people from being exterminated by the Soviet occupier.


yes


Sometimes it come across as a prejudice.


I see you like them. I know nothing about the case or reasons. That means there maybe reason the police didn't want to publicise or maybe that evidence is true. After all most of the times in such cases evidence comes from the police. Everything is possible even your claim. Yet you act as if you were in possession of an unique ability to see across time and distance


In fact your argument have been based on assumption that Lazio fans would get serious weapon (presumably swords and pistols) to mean business. That is an example of straw-man argument, it is obvious to everyone but you that one can do harm armed in a kitchen knife( you can harm people with your fists) that such arsenal would be clear indication of their intent.

You are making unstained and unprovable claims.