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Is parity the answer for Polish women?


trener zolwia 1 | 940
21 Oct 2010 #61
We can go on and on in this vein showing the many advantages western society gives women, and yet, the shrill victimology rhetoric continues to pour forth

We could replace "women" in this sentence with "blacks" and this statement would still be true. Women, blacks, gays... they all have it pretty darn good these days. But this doesn't keep them from their eternal complaining... They're all victims of the evil white male somehow, dontchaknow... Ingrates. :s

I hope the Polish peeps are paying attention and learning lessons from the mess that has been created over here...

National Organization of Women (NOW)

In recent times NOW has revealed itself to be little more than another Leftist ideological political group than a true champion for women's causes. They have endorsed Democrats who have called their female opponents "wh0res". If a Repub did this they'd go through the roof. Also, NOW makes no attempt to hide their contempt for this new Rightie brand of feminist that has emerged lately. NOW is all about the Lib now and women second, much as some of us have charged all along.
ZIMMY 6 | 1,601
4 Nov 2010 #62
This professional female poker player is using the old "I'm just a woman" defense for separate competition.

pokerjolt.com/news/poker-news/131/Maria-Ho-Women-are-scared-to-play-men-at-poker
pgtx 30 | 3,158
4 Nov 2010 #63
This professional female poker player is using the old "I'm just a woman" defense for separate competition.

so? what's your conclusion, zimmy?
southern 75 | 7,096
4 Nov 2010 #64
I also never understood the female chess.Why women cannot compete with men in the same leagues?
ZIMMY 6 | 1,601
4 Nov 2010 #65
what's your conclusion, zimmy?

Women want both sides of the coin to come up heads (for them).

I also never understood the female chess.Why women cannot compete with men in the same leagues?

Amazing isn't it?

You bring up a good example, one that is also true in many other venues. Women complain about equality issues yet want favoritism and/or separatism.
No Nonsense 6 | 68
4 Nov 2010 #66
This should be in the hate and discrimination section (haha just kidding). Men and women are not equal in a sense, they are pscychologically/mentally different and because of this are better at certain types of work. Its been proven that men for example are typically better at making business deals than women. Would you want 50% of the teachers, nurses, hair stylists, ect. to be men? That would be ridiculous.
ZIMMY 6 | 1,601
4 Jan 2011 #67
Kurt Vonnegut knew about the world of 'equality' way back in 1961 when he penned "Harrison Bergeron". The opening;

"The year was 2081, and everybody was finally equal. They weren’t only equal before God and the law. They were equal every which way. Nobody was smarter than anybody else. Nobody was better looking than anybody else. Nobody was stronger or quicker than anybody else. All this equality was due to the 211th, 212th, and 213th Amendments to the Constitution, and to the unceasing vigilance of agents of the United States Handicapper General."

Only BigGovernment advocates can dream of such a utopia.
Natasa 1 | 580
4 Jan 2011 #68
Kurt Vonnegut

I read something that was published here. I forgot the title. "A man without a country"
Interesting guy.
ZIMMY 6 | 1,601
4 Jan 2011 #69
Interesting guy.

May I recommend reading the entire short story; "Harrison Bergeron"?
tnellen.com/cybereng/harrison.html

A liberal (communal) vision of utopia"
Natasa 1 | 580
5 Jan 2011 #70
Ok the man is ridiculing the idea of equality. I do not know the circumstances which inspired him to write this story, but it is more than clear that this fantasized equality he doesn't see as charming :)) The problem is that the idea is pushed to the absurd, equality no one imagines in a similar way (maybe i'm missing some valuable information from there). I'm not really familiar with your local events that provoked such a reaction from the writer (it is a protest)

I'm some kind of leftist, but equality that I'm thinking of has to do only something with the distribution of goods. I also do not like equality in each possible aspect not just because its unrealistic but because it's unfair and produces unjust.

To summarize ... great story, beautiful critique of an Utopian system and its ideas, perfectly satirical.
I especially liked the interference of the brain functioning of the gifted ones, because it could really be conducted in a similar way. And it probably is, in many ways.

Thanks for the story!

Why women cannot compete with men in the same leagues?

I think that women have better verbal abilities in average and men logical and numerical. So they could win if they verbally interfere with men logic during a game as they usually do in reality :))

Differences exist. But I really don't see why not.
Olaf 6 | 956
5 Jan 2011 #71
A political party is of course free to submit a 50-50 slate of candidates but they want it to become the law of the land obligating all poltical parites. Do you believe this is the way to go? If not enough good female candidates come forward then the missing places will have to be filled by female mediocrities and also-rans.

Very good point here. If - for any reasons - there are less women interested in politics, or successful in it enough to emerge - then how this law will work on the quality of election lists? Mediocre candidates without any good education and/or experience are already huge problem in Poland. I wish there was more women in politics but this isn't the solution.
ZIMMY 6 | 1,601
5 Jan 2011 #72
Thanks for the story!

My pleasure:)

I think that women have better verbal abilities in average and men logical and numerical. So they could win if they verbally interfere with men logic during a game as they usually do in reality

Men are such softies that they just let the women prattle on. Men hate arguments but many women seem to thrive on them thus getting their way. If men nagged as often as women then, and only then would so many women realize how disgusting that 'attribute' is.

If - for any reasons - there are less women interested in politics, or successful in it enough to emerge - then how this law will work on the quality of election lists?

Of course but our societies seem to lack logic when it comes to such 'affirmative action'.

Sweden and Denmark have embarked on a quota system for women in political leadership. (note; "Harrison Bergeron" story). That's how feminized their culture has become. What happened to the Viking spirit?

Interesting isn't it that these same feminist programs (equity pograms?) don't demand the same high percentages for women in professions such as long-haul trucking; firefighting, auto mechanics, refuse work, fishing, oil rig working, crane operations, hazmat work, bomb technicians, powerline installing, etc, etc, etc. What I don't understand is why men don't demand this sort of real equality just to be consistent instead of the feminist pick-and-choose careers.

It would seem that women don't want the 'dirty jobs'.

Related to the above is womens hypergamy.

the-spearhead.com/2011/01/10/implications-of-the-apex-fallacy/

From the link: "women generally only consider men for potential mates who are least equal to them, and preferably above them, on the wealth/status pyramid. They are always "looking up", never down, so men at their own level and below are simply invisible and women do not even realize that they exist - except to the extent that such men annoy them by actually seeking their attention."

"...as women entered the workforce en masse, their fixation point on the wealth/status pyramid drifted upward. With each increase in her income, the number of men at and above her own level shrank geometrically."

...and gentlemen, this is where much of the problem lies. This of course adds fuel to womens constant (and tiring) complaints about men. they always are looking for 'a few good men'; problem is, as women age they have fewer to choose from.

Finally, a judicial victory for men, and the judge was female.

From the link: "The Tennessee Supreme Court ruled unanimously that the lifetime alimony was inappropriate because Johanna Gonsewski held a stable job, earned considerable income and was awarded a significant amount of assets in the property settlement."

Now, if only we can get women to pay alimony as well.

Even 6 year old little boys are not safe from our feminized western culture.
carrie65 2 | 40
20 Nov 2011 #73
Why should women have 'legislated parity'? how patronising! In most countries we have equality of opportunity and it's all we need, if we are good we'll make it to the top, if we aren't we won't,end of. I've done well in a very male orientated workplace but I will never reach the top because I have 4 kids and their needs are more of a priority for me.The choice to put them first was my choice, this has nothing to do with sexism or inequality, I don't want to get a nanny or househusband so that I can be the boss, so I accept that I won't be the boss! In Britain we'd be better off looking at some of the financial inequalities that prevent equality and an education/exam system that is geared

towards females (to the detriment of males) and does not really test true knowledge.

Parity for females in Poland??? I couldn't give an educated opinion because apart from my mother in law/sister in law, I only know expat women. What I can say though, is that apart from 2 very nice ladies, the polish women in my part of Cardiff are total airheads. My sister in law has just spent a couple of weeks here and the majority of the women we know were down right rude to her. Most called round on some excuse just to get a look at her and then were rude about her looks and the fact that she was talking about books,politics etc..... needless to say they were kept away the rest of the time along with their dopey husbands who should point out that looks aren't everything!

All this parity stuff, it's rubbish, use your brain and you'll go places!
skysoulmate 14 | 1,297
20 Nov 2011 #74
Why should women have 'legislated parity'?

Truer words couldn't have been spoken. Logical, to the point and accurate.

Parity for females in Poland?

So "most" Polish women are airheads based on your personal experiences??

All this parity stuff, it's rubbish, use your brain and you'll go places!

Seems like you're using your own advice in the first part of your post and not so much when you write about your perception of Polish women. What you described here are your perceptions, hardly any "facts".
aphrodisiac 11 | 2,444
20 Nov 2011 #75
I couldn't give an educated opinion

right.

Truer words couldn't have been spoken. Logical, to the point and accurate.

yep, you are really concerned since you are a Polish woman and you live in Poland.

So "most" Polish women are airheads based on your personal experiences??

very limited experience, but she def has an opinion.

Back to the topic. Yes, Polish women need that parity and it will happen in the future. Polish women are as capable to be in the government as Polish men.
carrie65 2 | 40
20 Nov 2011 #76
To skysoulmate

Sorry if that sounds like I'm casting all polish women as airheads, I only know 2 who live in Poland, it's the women who I meet in my area of cardiff that I who I was writing about, who are expats anyway.

There are a couple of really nice women but the rest of the expat women in my area , I find difficult to relate to. I am pretty angry about the treatment of my sister in law, so maybe I am being especially critcal today. My partner is friendly with these women's menfolk, the women, however, rarely visit my house,usually we have contact if my partner is invited to a social event by the men , all of a sudden the women are turning up to say hi and have a look at my sister in law, then being rude to her or behind her back. My sister in law is a lovely woman,obviously Polish herself! I have been upset by this. I get cross when these women criticise my two polish female friends as well. Any way UNRESERVED APOLOGIES, if I sounded as though I was calling ALL/MOST Polish women airheads, I didn't mean to suggest this.
skysoulmate 14 | 1,297
20 Nov 2011 #77
yep, you are really concerned since you are a Polish woman and you live in Poland.

I see, as a man I'm totally clueless and have no right to express my opinions. Additionally I don't live in Poland and therefore I know even less. Frauen über Alles, femi-nazism has gotten to your head.

-------

To skysoulmate

Sorry if that sounds like I'm casting all polish women as airheads, I only know 2 who live in Poland, it's the women who I meet in my area of cardiff that I who I was writing about, who are expats anyway.

No need to appologize. Besides, as a man apparently I know nothing anyways.

My point was that discrimination is wrong. Any government enforced quotas are a form of legalized duscriminatiin based on past wrongs. That's why i agreed with the first part of your post.

The second part, well, you simply know two airheads. They're Polish but could've been British, Germans or Americans. That's all you had to say.

No apology needed. Especially to me, I'm not even a woman and as such I know nothing.

Btw., "legalized duscriminatiin" = "legalized discrimination"

Wasn't quick enough to correct.
aphrodisiac 11 | 2,444
20 Nov 2011 #78
I see, as a man I'm totally clueless and have no right to express my opinions. Additionally I don't live in Poland and therefore I know even less. Frauen über Alles, femi-nazism has gotten to your head.

you have the right to express your opinion, which you did, so I am not sure why you are putting words in my mouth? However the truth is that you have not visited Poland in a long time- things have changed a LOT.

I am not a femi- nazi, what is wrong with you lol

The parity is a serious business here in Poland and I am a lil surprised that you treat it lightly. Freuen uber Alles has nothing to do with parity, but you must have attended some meetings I am not aware of lol therefore the vocabulary lol

If you fancy some strong women it is none of my business;)
skysoulmate 14 | 1,297
20 Nov 2011 #79
you have the right to express your opinion, which you did, so I am not sure why you are putting words in my mouth?

I am not a femi- nazi, what is wrong with you lol

I know you aren't, I've followed you long enough to know that (no, I'm not a"stalker" :))

Yet your sarcastic comment about me not being able to understand because I'm a man is a typical femi-nazi argument. I don't have to steal to know that theft is wrong. Discrimination, whether on a personal level or on a government sponsored level is ALWAYS wrong. Two wrongs don't make a right.

I don't believe in "parity", I believe in equality. Government sponsored "equality" via forced parity will always fail. It might look equal on paper but it'll never be where it really matters, in people's hearts.

Ps. ...and what's wrong with strong women btw? :-)
aphrodisiac 11 | 2,444
20 Nov 2011 #80
I know you aren't, I've followed you long enough to know that (no, I'm not a"stalker" :))

so why do you even use those words? I see the reason for parity in the Polish government, you don't. You talking it way to personally Sky.

Yet your sarcastic comment about me not being able to understand because I'm a man is a typical femi-nazi argument.

It wasn't sarcastic. I merely pointed out that most men are not able to relate to parity issue because they are not women. Simple. That said I am sure you are an expert on many things.

I don't have to steal to know that theft is wrong.

parity and stealing are two different things, there is no comparison, how could there be. I don't see parity as a negative, but a positive thing.

Discrimination, whether on a personal level or on a government sponsored level is ALWAYS wrong.

Parity in my view has nothing to do with discrimination, why would you even think that?

Here. This is the place where women belong anyways:) (sarcasm)
skysoulmate 14 | 1,297
20 Nov 2011 #81
"so why do you even use those words?"

- Because the argument you used is a femi-nazi argument. "You're not one of us, thus you don't understand.". It's an elitist, sexist argument, a flawed argument.

"I see the reason for parity in the Polish government, you don't. You talking it way to personally Sky."

- it means we disagree, NOT that I don't understand because I'm a man. I'm not taking this personally at all, it's just a message board.

"It wasn't sarcastic. I merely pointed out that most men are not able to relate to parity issue because they are not women. Simple. That said I am sure you are an expert on many things. "

- Well, is it possible there were white men and women who knew slavery was wrong even when it was still legal? How come? How could they relate? After all, they were white?? Now change the color of one's skin to one's gender and tell me how this is any different?

"parity and stealing are two different things, there is no comparison, how could there be."

- They're exactly the same. Theft. You award a person with a position (money, benefits, etc.) based on what's between his/her legs and not his/her knowledge and experience.

"I don't see parity as a negative, but a positive thing.... Parity in my view has nothing to do with discrimination, why would you even think that?"

- If parity is achieved simply because there were just as many talented and experienced men as women then yes, it's a great thing.

- Today however, parity is a government tool of reverse discrimination, or revenge discrimination. In the US it's achieved via the so called "affirmative action", a term created by the politically correct crowd. In Sweden until very recently the affirmative action was called "positive diskriminering", or "positive discrimination", positive for some (women and minorities) and negative for others (primarily white males).

- Recently the Supreme court struck down several affirmative action laws, for example they can't use it any longer as a school admission criteria. Until recently if a man and a woman applied to a university and both had the exact same grades, let's say a GPA of 3.89 and they scored the same on the entrance exam, the woman would be admitted before the man simply because she was a woman. For years the affirmative action controlled school entrance policies but fortunately it's now been overturned.

- Note, I'm not saying our society is equal, or perfect or that discrimination doesn't exist. It does and it needs to be changed. However, government sponsored discrimination is just as wrong.
southern 75 | 7,096
20 Nov 2011 #82
Slavic women have achieved a state of ueberparity and why should they degrade themselves to men's state?
aphrodisiac 11 | 2,444
20 Nov 2011 #83
It's an elitist, sexist argument, a flawed argument.

it is not. I will tell you why. I have read this thread and I have been observing what is happening re parity in Poland and most men don't want it. I am just making an observation. Why would men want to decide what it good for women and for that matter why would anybody decide what is good for another person, eh?

- Well, is it possible there were white men and women who knew slavery was wrong even when it was still legal? How come? How could they relate? After all, they were white?? Now change the color of one's skin to one's gender and tell me how this is any different?

OK, relating and being in someone else's shoes are two different things. There are limits to relating to things imo.

- They're exactly the same. Theft. You award a person with a position (money, benefits, etc.) based on what's between his/her legs and not his/her knowledge and experience.

in your opinion, not mine. We are talking about parity in the Polish government- a direct representation of the society.

- If parity is achieved simply because there were just as many talented and experienced men as women then yes, it's a great thing.

that would be my understanding. I will not have it any other way.

- Today however, parity is a government tool of reverse discrimination, or revenge discrimination. In the US it's achieved via the so called "affirmative action", a term created by the politically correct crowd. In Sweden until very recently the affirmative action was called "positive diskriminering", or "positive discrimination", positive for some (women and minorities) and negative for others (primarily white males).

perhaps based on what has been happening it the US. Poland has a different make up of the society and I don't see the correlation.

Isn't is a result of what happened in the past re admitting more men then women? Is has not been overturned. It is just the natural reaction to the number of admitted white males. It will balance itself eventually.

However, government sponsored discrimination is just as wrong.

How would you implement the changes if they would not be imposed by the government then? How would you secure equality to people, women? I am curious.

PS. I am turning in. Long day:)
tbc.
Foreigner4 12 | 1,769
20 Nov 2011 #84
50/50, why not? It's not as though the status quo isn't ailing.
southern 75 | 7,096
20 Nov 2011 #85
Women usually do not claim equal numbers in truck driving front soldiers battling or participating in mining explorations.
skysoulmate 14 | 1,297
20 Nov 2011 #86
"it is not. I will tell you why. I have read this thread and I have been observing what is happening re parity in Poland and most men don't want it. I am just making an observation. Why would men want to decide what it good for women and for that matter why would anybody decide what is good for another person, eh?"

I'm not saying your observations are incorrect, frankly I don't know what most Polish men want. However, if I understand you correctly you feel that a majority of Polish men are pigs and therefore f@&k them, let's discriminate against them, an eye for an eye, correct? Yeah, that'll really bring out equality in your society. lol

"OK, relating and being in someone else's shoes are two different things. There are limits to relating to things imo."

Fortunately (for me and for other men) that's irrelevant when it comes to voting. My voice counts as much as yours does (not in Poland but generally speaking). I'd never try to discount your opinion on testicular cancer just because being a woman you "don't really understand."

in your opinion, not mine. We are talking about parity in the Polish government- a direct representation of the society.

How about parity in coal mines? Why don't you force at least 50% of the miners to be women? Construction workers? Farmers? Trash collectors? Direct representation, right?

"that would be my understanding. I will not have it any other way."

If you wouldn't have it any other way than you're agreeing with me. Yet I'm against government imposed quotas which you support and therefore you don't agree with me at all and would indeed have the "other way" or ANY way to achieve your goal of this fake equality.

"Isn't is a result of what happened in the past re admitting more men then women? Is has not been overturned. It is just the natural reaction to the number of admitted white males. It will balance itself eventually."

Not sure what you're saying here. Yes, it was overturned. In 2003 to be precise. It's a slow process and the race/gender law still exists in many areas of our lives but at least the law is now being confronted.

Women who in the past supported this reverse discrimination realized that their own sons were chance-less when faced with lesser performing females (and/or minorities) when applying to good universities simply because they had the "wrong" gender or the "wrong" skin color. The minority/female quota had to be filled no matter what. Those same women changed their mind on what affirmative action really is. Slowly the society rebelled and the Supreme court struck down parts of the law. It still stands but has more restrictions.

"How would you implement the changes if they would not be imposed by the government then? How would you secure equality to people, women? I am curious."

One way is to create interest for male dominated fields with the young girls (similar to "take your daughter to work" program) and likewise take the boys to hospitals, restaurants and other female dominated fields. True interest, curiosity is how you attract future talent. Implement severe penalties for anyone who discriminates based on gender (or skin color). I'm talking multi-year long prison sentences for those who are found guilty. Punish those who discriminate, not the entire male population. My approach would take longer to implement. Those are just some ideas, I'm sure there are many more ways to achieve that.

PS. I am turning in. Long day:)
tbc."


Ok, nite nite.
southern 75 | 7,096
20 Nov 2011 #87
How about parity in coal mines? Why don't you force at least 50% of the miners to be women? Construction workers? Farmers? Trash collectors? Direct representation

I see you gravitating towards communist ideals.
skysoulmate 14 | 1,297
20 Nov 2011 #88
If that's what you "see" then check your vision, prompto.

Besides, this wasn't truly a suggestion of mine, I simply highlighted the fallacy of forced gender (and race) quotas in workplaces.
carrie 65
21 Nov 2011 #89
No need to appologize. Besides, as a man apparently I know nothing anyways.

My second point was badly written so an apology was needed, as a man you are entitled to an opinion on the subject, the proposed 50/50 parity affects you alongside other men and women.

As a woman I do not want an inefficient government for the sake of absolute equality on paper! The move to reserve seats for female/or ethnic candidates has not worked in Britain in as much as the running of the country was appalling, why would it be any better in Poland?

I cannot understand why any woman would want enforced parity? It's degrading to be told that seats in a parliament have to be saved for women, if wish to become politicians and we're good, we'll achieve this.

For those that are interested in women's right's they should look at some of the countries that deny women the most basic rights and try to help make changes there, women in europe/uSA/Austrailia have it easy these days.
southern 75 | 7,096
21 Nov 2011 #90
If by parity they mean equal sponsorship opportunities I am ready to accept.


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