What makes a man a Pole? what does it mean to be a Pole?

How are they banned? There's a link in that Wikipedia article to Chopin's French passport.


That would prove my point even better about him considering himself Polish. Chopin didn't choose French citizenship, he had it since his birth.
Btw, how did he travel around Europe before the Uprising if he got a French passport only in 1837? What kind of passport did he have before that?


You question the fact that Chopin considered himself Polish:


Then you made this silly comment when I wrote that George Sand said he was "more Polish than Poland":


You also dissed the quotes from Liszt, Schumann and Richard Taruskin because I linked to Wikipedia:


Then you wrote to Polonius3:


So I'm not lying about what you write, I'm drawing a logical conclusion.
Am I wrong?
Then write that you accept the fact that Chopin considered himself Polish and his contemporaries considered him Polish and a Polish patriot and I will leave you alone and you'll be able to continue to kick Polonius3' ankles.

What the document says cannot be quoted, only what a published source says the document says can be stated (that is why the lead of the article says that Chopin had a Polish mother while his passport tells us that his mother was French).


Whoever said that? I certainly didn't.


A Russian one, which permitted him to remain in Paris only 'in passage' on his way to London.


I question whether Chopin thought himself to be only Polish. He very clearly had no problem in being French when it suited him.

Passports are often bureacratic lies which only heartless bureacratically-minded clerks take seriously. RU12?

Apparently his passport said that:
diaph16.free.fr/chopin//chopin7.htm



How could he get a Russian passport if he had French citizenship?


No, you clearly wrote "if he thought himself Polish", not "if he thought himself only Polish".
So either you're lying now to "save your face" or you have a very imprecise way of expressing yourself.
Don't act like an a$$hole and be more precise in your comments and I bet you'll have less enemies on this forum, Harry.

And nothing had to "suit" Chopin. He was half-Polish, half-French and he could consider himself both Polish and French and I have no problem with that.

Your wasting your breath on a know-all who claims to be an authority on everybody else's ethnic identity and/or nationality but, as far as I know, has never seen fit to identify his own. Is he a Scotsman, Brit, Anglo, Welshman, UK-er, Yank, Dane or Spaniard? Qui sait?

Perhaps you'd like to quote the part of that passport which says that Chopin didn't have a French passport until 1837? Good luck with that.


That's a question you'd need to direct to the Russian authorities in Warsaw at the time.


Did you miss the sentence after the one you quote from? Or are you now engaging in selective quoting to go along with your habit of being highly economical with the truth as regards what people say?


Precisely what I think.


I never had you down as a supporter of unchecked immigration to Poland.
Personally I find that passports contain no lies, for example your passport states that you are American (status confirmed by the documents issued to you by the Polish government).

lol
Harry, what are you talking about now? You wrote yourself he was using a Russian passport before in his travels.
On that page it is written: "celui-ci obtint, le 7 juillet 1837. un passeport délivré par les autorités françaises." So according to this French site he received his French passport issued by French authorities in 1837. I'm not able to decipher what is written in the passport itself, but I can see a date "1837".

Have I misunderstood something?


In other words - you don't know?


No, I didn't miss anyhting, and I'm not being "highly economical with the truth as regards what people say" (prove that with quotes or apologise for lying about me :)) I quoted that sentence before already. And? How does that sentence change anything? o_O

As I wrote before, you wrote "if he thought himself Polish", not "if he thought himself only Polish".
That is often the problem with your comments, Harry.
You accuse people of lying about what you write, about your intentions but you yourself provoke people to draw such conclusions because of the way you word your comments and the way you behave (I even wonder sometimes if you do it on purpose to provoke people).

Instead of accusing me of "lying" etc. couldn't you simply accept a little criticism? Will you die from it? lol Will a crown fall from your head? Are you perfect?

You give the impression that you're on a constant war with everyone who dares to disagree with anything you write (no, I'm not lying, that's my impression about you).

"Leave the trenches!" as my Russian friend used to write to some Poles ;)

That isn't his first French passport.


I have no idea as to what Russian policy in the 1830s was with regard to giving passports to people born in what had recently become (in their eyes) part of the Russian empire.

Most but not all.


I hope zeitgeist movement is not anti-religious.

I've heard of the foot fetish, but this is the first time I've heard of a passport fetish. I reckon that's how some people get their jollies off. Learn something new every day! The bureacrats will always try to force scraps of paper down your throat, but you don't have to like it, or worship it turn it into a fetish!!! Or try to strip Poland's gretaest composer of his national identity on the basis of some paper some tin-horn clerk did or did not issue. Who cares? So what? Big deal! A waste of breath. Picking one's nose would be more worthwhile than hitting the keyboard to type such twaddle!

THANK YOU SO GOOFY STOP! You're wrong i'm right end of story.

The main problem i have with religion is the fact that so called religious people believe God has a master plan, even if that plan includes the destruction of our planet then so beit as far as they are concerned. Raping the Earths resources, climate change, war, extreme poverty all these things exist in a largely religious world.

Don't blame God for human stupidity and greed. All these things exist because people are abusing their God-given free will. The most blame is on the movers and shakers -- the corporations, bankers, media and entertainment industry which are pandering to the big-money interests at the expense of our planet, our children and human lives.

But he made man in his image, ergo, we are a copy of the bearded one. If we're stupid and greedy it's only because the apple doesn't fall far from the tree.

No, Poland was divided and occupied which is a very different thing to not existing.

Poland wasn't occupied, it was annexed. We had this argument before - Poland was not occupied by any reasonable definition of the word. I forget which Congress it was (Vienna?) - but as far as practicalities go, Poland was off the map.

Was Vilnius occupied by Poland after they snatched it from the Lithuanians? Nope.

Poland was occupied by foreign powers, they didn't bow the knee to their occupiers

The Targowica Confederation might want to discuss that with you.

As for not bowing the knee - at least in the Austrian and German sectors, we saw Poles owning businesses, going to universities, etc etc. I believe they enjoyed relative freedom in the Austrian sector too - Lwów and Kraków certainly flourished under Austrian administration.

Poor oppressed Poles enjoying freedom and prosperity in Austria and Prussia/Germany? That must be a quote from the wrong history book... ;)

Never heard of the Kulturkampf, the Hakata, Drzymała's wagon, the school protest in Września? Back to Polish History 101!
The Austrian partition zone was the most permissive becuase the German element was in the minority. They had no choice.

A colonial view of history is never a good place to start.

Absolute BS, people do these things in the name of profit....PERIOD. So the guy who started off as a helper on an oil rig and then became an oil tycoon should simply say hang on a minute perhaps i'll stop pulling this vital resource from the ground as its against Gods will to destroy the planet.

Abuse free will my @ss, its environment every time.

Precisely, the pusuit of profit at all cost and to the detriment of others is evil. Producing kinder prn and selling heroin can produce large profits, so do you endorse such activity?

Obviously i don't support that specifically but i would like to analyze the underlying principles which would cause a man to behave in such a way. You can take the most profound examples to some of the more *supposed* ethical ways to profit and it doesn't change the fundamentals much. Do you know what im saying polonius?

Unbridled greed and the lack of ethical principles; catering exlcusively for 'me, myself and I' -- my profits, my advantage, my selfish interests is all that counts and to hell with the rest. Let them fend for themselves. Wherever such attitudes become prevalent, in a family, community or country, the resutls are always the same: widespread injustice and misery.

And thats what makes a man polish

No, it was in reply to someone asking about an oil-drilling tycoon robbing our planet of tis resources. Not too too many such people in Poland.

But on a smaller scale its every polish guy I have had the misfortune to deal with financially

Poland was annexed and subsequently wiped off the maps, that's a historical fact. The picture of an oppressed people suffering under a cruel Prussian occupation is (commie) propaganda, and you know that.

A colonial view of history is not a good place to start