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What makes a man a Pole? what does it mean to be a Pole?


Paulina 13 | 3,837
27 Aug 2013 #121
You'd do much better to look at actual source documents (which are banned from use by Wikipedia authors).

How are they banned? There's a link in that Wikipedia article to Chopin's French passport.

I know he was born a French citizen because (and I'm repeating myself here).

That would prove my point even better about him considering himself Polish. Chopin didn't choose French citizenship, he had it since his birth.
Btw, how did he travel around Europe before the Uprising if he got a French passport only in 1837? What kind of passport did he have before that?

Do I really? Perhaps you could be so kind as to quote me saying that. Either that or apologise for yet again lying about what I say.

You question the fact that Chopin considered himself Polish:

As for FF Chopin himself, if he thought himself Polish, why didn't he apply for a 'laissez-passer' for foreigners living on French soil? He instead got the French passport which was his birth-right.

Then you made this silly comment when I wrote that George Sand said he was "more Polish than Poland":

You seem to forget that at the time when she said that, Poland didn't exist, so anything which claimed to be Polish was more Polish than something which didn't exist.

You also dissed the quotes from Liszt, Schumann and Richard Taruskin because I linked to Wikipedia:

Oh, I am sorry: if wikipedia says it, it must be true, right....

Then you wrote to Polonius3:

A life he chose to live in France as a Frenchman

So I'm not lying about what you write, I'm drawing a logical conclusion.
Am I wrong?
Then write that you accept the fact that Chopin considered himself Polish and his contemporaries considered him Polish and a Polish patriot and I will leave you alone and you'll be able to continue to kick Polonius3' ankles.
Harry
27 Aug 2013 #122
How are they banned? There's a link in that Wikipedia article to Chopin's French passport.

What the document says cannot be quoted, only what a published source says the document says can be stated (that is why the lead of the article says that Chopin had a Polish mother while his passport tells us that his mother was French).

Btw, how did he travel around Europe before the Uprising if he got a French passport only in 1837?

Whoever said that? I certainly didn't.

What kind of passport did he have before that?

A Russian one, which permitted him to remain in Paris only 'in passage' on his way to London.

You question the fact that Chopin considered himself Polish:

I question whether Chopin thought himself to be only Polish. He very clearly had no problem in being French when it suited him.
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
27 Aug 2013 #123
passport tells us that his mother was French).

Passports are often bureacratic lies which only heartless bureacratically-minded clerks take seriously. RU12?
Paulina 13 | 3,837
27 Aug 2013 #124
Whoever said that? I certainly didn't.

Apparently his passport said that:
diaph16.free.fr/chopin//chopin7.htm

Lors d'un voyage de CHOPIN a Londres, celui-ci obtint, le 7 juillet 1837. un passeport délivré par les autorités françaises."

A Russian one, which permitted him to remain in Paris only 'in passage' on his way to London.

How could he get a Russian passport if he had French citizenship?

I question whether Chopin thought himself to be only Polish. He very clearly had no problem in being French when it suited him.

No, you clearly wrote "if he thought himself Polish", not "if he thought himself only Polish".
So either you're lying now to "save your face" or you have a very imprecise way of expressing yourself.
Don't act like an a$$hole and be more precise in your comments and I bet you'll have less enemies on this forum, Harry.

And nothing had to "suit" Chopin. He was half-Polish, half-French and he could consider himself both Polish and French and I have no problem with that.
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
27 Aug 2013 #125
Your wasting your breath on a know-all who claims to be an authority on everybody else's ethnic identity and/or nationality but, as far as I know, has never seen fit to identify his own. Is he a Scotsman, Brit, Anglo, Welshman, UK-er, Yank, Dane or Spaniard? Qui sait?
Harry
27 Aug 2013 #126
Perhaps you'd like to quote the part of that passport which says that Chopin didn't have a French passport until 1837? Good luck with that.

How could he get a Russian passport if he had French citizenship?

That's a question you'd need to direct to the Russian authorities in Warsaw at the time.

No, you clearly wrote "if he thought himself Polish", not "if he thought himself only Polish".

Did you miss the sentence after the one you quote from? Or are you now engaging in selective quoting to go along with your habit of being highly economical with the truth as regards what people say?

He was half-Polish, half-French and he could consider himself both Polish and French and I have no problem with that.

Precisely what I think.

Passports are often bureacratic lies which only heartless bureacratically-minded clerks take seriously.

I never had you down as a supporter of unchecked immigration to Poland.
Personally I find that passports contain no lies, for example your passport states that you are American (status confirmed by the documents issued to you by the Polish government).
Paulina 13 | 3,837
27 Aug 2013 #127
Perhaps you'd like to quote the part of that passport which says that Chopin didn't have a French passport until 1837? Good luck with that.

lol
Harry, what are you talking about now? You wrote yourself he was using a Russian passport before in his travels.
On that page it is written: "celui-ci obtint, le 7 juillet 1837. un passeport délivré par les autorités françaises." So according to this French site he received his French passport issued by French authorities in 1837. I'm not able to decipher what is written in the passport itself, but I can see a date "1837".

Have I misunderstood something?

That's a question you'd need to direct to the Russian authorities in Warsaw at the time.

In other words - you don't know?

Did you miss the sentence after the one you quote from? Or are you now engaging in selective quoting to go along with your habit of being highly economical with the truth as regards what people say?

No, I didn't miss anyhting, and I'm not being "highly economical with the truth as regards what people say" (prove that with quotes or apologise for lying about me :)) I quoted that sentence before already. And? How does that sentence change anything? o_O

As I wrote before, you wrote "if he thought himself Polish", not "if he thought himself only Polish".
That is often the problem with your comments, Harry.
You accuse people of lying about what you write, about your intentions but you yourself provoke people to draw such conclusions because of the way you word your comments and the way you behave (I even wonder sometimes if you do it on purpose to provoke people).

Instead of accusing me of "lying" etc. couldn't you simply accept a little criticism? Will you die from it? lol Will a crown fall from your head? Are you perfect?

You give the impression that you're on a constant war with everyone who dares to disagree with anything you write (no, I'm not lying, that's my impression about you).

"Leave the trenches!" as my Russian friend used to write to some Poles ;)
Harry
27 Aug 2013 #128
That isn't his first French passport.

In other words - you don't know?

I have no idea as to what Russian policy in the 1830s was with regard to giving passports to people born in what had recently become (in their eyes) part of the Russian empire.
Nile 1 | 154
27 Aug 2013 #129
The Zeitgeist movement is another one of those "utopian" ideas that are bad
Most of the points in those movies have been debunked.

Most but not all.

religion is the perfect excuse.

I hope zeitgeist movement is not anti-religious.
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
27 Aug 2013 #130
I never had you down as a

I've heard of the foot fetish, but this is the first time I've heard of a passport fetish. I reckon that's how some people get their jollies off. Learn something new every day! The bureacrats will always try to force scraps of paper down your throat, but you don't have to like it, or worship it turn it into a fetish!!! Or try to strip Poland's gretaest composer of his national identity on the basis of some paper some tin-horn clerk did or did not issue. Who cares? So what? Big deal! A waste of breath. Picking one's nose would be more worthwhile than hitting the keyboard to type such twaddle!
mochadot18 17 | 244
27 Aug 2013 #131
+1000!

+1

THANK YOU SO GOOFY STOP! You're wrong i'm right end of story.
Wroclaw Boy
27 Aug 2013 #132
I hope zeitgeist movement is not anti-religious.

The main problem i have with religion is the fact that so called religious people believe God has a master plan, even if that plan includes the destruction of our planet then so beit as far as they are concerned. Raping the Earths resources, climate change, war, extreme poverty all these things exist in a largely religious world.
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
27 Aug 2013 #133
Raping the Earths resources, climate change, war, extreme poverty

Don't blame God for human stupidity and greed. All these things exist because people are abusing their God-given free will. The most blame is on the movers and shakers -- the corporations, bankers, media and entertainment industry which are pandering to the big-money interests at the expense of our planet, our children and human lives.
smurf 39 | 1,981
27 Aug 2013 #134
Don't blame God for human stupidity and greed

But he made man in his image, ergo, we are a copy of the bearded one. If we're stupid and greedy it's only because the apple doesn't fall far from the tree.
Barney 15 | 1,520
27 Aug 2013 #135
Poland didn't exist

No, Poland was divided and occupied which is a very different thing to not existing.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,454
28 Aug 2013 #136
Poland wasn't occupied, it was annexed. We had this argument before - Poland was not occupied by any reasonable definition of the word. I forget which Congress it was (Vienna?) - but as far as practicalities go, Poland was off the map.

Was Vilnius occupied by Poland after they snatched it from the Lithuanians? Nope.
Barney 15 | 1,520
28 Aug 2013 #137
Poland wasn't occupied, it was annexed. We had this argument before

Poland was occupied by foreign powers, they didn't bow the knee to their occupiers
delphiandomine 88 | 18,454
28 Aug 2013 #138
The Targowica Confederation might want to discuss that with you.

As for not bowing the knee - at least in the Austrian and German sectors, we saw Poles owning businesses, going to universities, etc etc. I believe they enjoyed relative freedom in the Austrian sector too - Lwów and Kraków certainly flourished under Austrian administration.
TheOther 6 | 3,692
28 Aug 2013 #139
Poor oppressed Poles enjoying freedom and prosperity in Austria and Prussia/Germany? That must be a quote from the wrong history book... ;)
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
28 Aug 2013 #140
German sectors

Never heard of the Kulturkampf, the Hakata, Drzymała's wagon, the school protest in Września? Back to Polish History 101!
The Austrian partition zone was the most permissive becuase the German element was in the minority. They had no choice.
Barney 15 | 1,520
28 Aug 2013 #141
Poor oppressed Poles enjoying freedom and prosperity in Austria and Prussia/Germany?

A colonial view of history is never a good place to start.
Wroclaw Boy
28 Aug 2013 #142
All these things exist because people are abusing their God-given free will.

Absolute BS, people do these things in the name of profit....PERIOD. So the guy who started off as a helper on an oil rig and then became an oil tycoon should simply say hang on a minute perhaps i'll stop pulling this vital resource from the ground as its against Gods will to destroy the planet.

Abuse free will my @ss, its environment every time.
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
28 Aug 2013 #143
do these things in the name of profit

Precisely, the pusuit of profit at all cost and to the detriment of others is evil. Producing kinder prn and selling heroin can produce large profits, so do you endorse such activity?
Wroclaw Boy
28 Aug 2013 #144
Producing kinder prn and selling heroin can produce large profits, so do you endorse such activity?

Obviously i don't support that specifically but i would like to analyze the underlying principles which would cause a man to behave in such a way. You can take the most profound examples to some of the more *supposed* ethical ways to profit and it doesn't change the fundamentals much. Do you know what im saying polonius?
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
28 Aug 2013 #145
the underlying principles which would cause a man to behave in such a way

Unbridled greed and the lack of ethical principles; catering exlcusively for 'me, myself and I' -- my profits, my advantage, my selfish interests is all that counts and to hell with the rest. Let them fend for themselves. Wherever such attitudes become prevalent, in a family, community or country, the resutls are always the same: widespread injustice and misery.
fookalf
28 Aug 2013 #146
And thats what makes a man polish
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
28 Aug 2013 #147
No, it was in reply to someone asking about an oil-drilling tycoon robbing our planet of tis resources. Not too too many such people in Poland.
fookalf
28 Aug 2013 #148
But on a smaller scale its every polish guy I have had the misfortune to deal with financially
TheOther 6 | 3,692
28 Aug 2013 #149
A colonial view of history is never a good place to start.

Poland was annexed and subsequently wiped off the maps, that's a historical fact. The picture of an oppressed people suffering under a cruel Prussian occupation is (commie) propaganda, and you know that.
Barney 15 | 1,520
28 Aug 2013 #150
A colonial view of history is not a good place to start


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