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What makes a man a Pole? what does it mean to be a Pole?


Harry
26 Aug 2013 #91
He almost certainly doesn't qualify for a Polish passport. Oh, and he wouldn't if he wasn't black either.
legend 3 | 664
26 Aug 2013 #92
tzm will go in the same bog of forget as did socialism marxism and nazism

The Zeitgeist movement is another one of those "utopian" ideas that are bad
Most of the points in those movies have been debunked.
OP goofy_the_dog
26 Aug 2013 #93
harry so in your opinion ppl that found themselves in the partition ex-poland werent polish?
was mickiewicz a non pole or Chopin or Kosciuszko?

haha your opinions humiliate you ;)
smurf 39 | 1,981
26 Aug 2013 #94
ex-poland werent polish

Obviously not.
Duh.

How can you possibly be born in a country when it doesn't even exist.

Silly.

Unless their parents were Polish, then you could argue that they were.....at a stretch.
I always thought Chopin was French anyway,.....until I moved here that is...although I find it strange that when he left Poland he never once returned....

and that Maria Curie was French too...until I moved here. What is it with France, eh?

I just googled Kosciuszko, I've no interest in military stuff tbh, so I've no opinion on him...although it was pretty cool of him to leave the money in his will to Thomas Jefferson to continue to fight for the abolishment of slavery in Virginia. Fair play though in fairness.
Harry
26 Aug 2013 #95
harry so in your opinion ppl that found themselves in the partition ex-poland werent polish?

Would you care to quote me saying that?

haha your opinions humiliate you

Your insistence on saying that I've said what I clearly have not said demonstrate that you are nothing but a liar.

was mickiewicz a non pole or Chopin or Kosciuszko?

Chopin was born to French parents. He did not qualify for Polish citizenship under Polish law then in force and would not qualify for Polish citizenship under Polish law currently in force. However, he would qualify for French citizenship under French law then and now, which would be handy for him, considering that he spend the majority of his adult life living in France as a Frenchman.
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
26 Aug 2013 #96
would not qualify for Polish citizenship

Just another pooof that citizenship is yet another bureaucratic invnetion like the sick and skewed EU. The clerks have to have their paperwork to do otherwise they'd be totally usesless. But Chopin's music is so permeated with his Poland's ancestral heritage, they evoke the green meadows of Masovia, the quaint wayside shrines eternally festooned with flowers and the inimitable folk melodies of the Polish people, and that is soemthing no scrap of paper could change.

Besides, Chopin would not have qualified for Polish citizenship because there was no free Poland at that time, only an earlier verison of PRL -- the tsarist-ruled Congress Kingdom. Back to Polish History 101!
Wroclaw Boy
26 Aug 2013 #97
religion exists for the entire human civilization.. i would say that it is a human thing to bdlelieve in something not prploven to or not to exist.

yes, a fairy tale. Its human to have hope, we need to justify our existence and religion is the perfect excuse.

recession is fading away wroclaw boy

recessions are perpetual, i have been an adult for two and im not old.

The Zeitgeist movement is another one of those "utopian" ideas that are bad
Most of the points in those movies have been debunked.

bad LOL. List the points Legend any of them. Your statement proves to me that you don't have a clue what you're talking about, the same as goofy.
Harry
26 Aug 2013 #98
Just another pooof that citizenship is yet another bureaucratic invnetion like the sick and skewed EU.

The concept of citizenship goes back a lot further than the EU.

Besides, Chopin would not have qualified for Polish citizenship because there was no free Poland at that time, only an earlier verison of PRL -- the tsarist-ruled Congress Kingdom. Back to Polish History 101!

Oh dear, yet another fail from you when it comes to Polish history. Chopin was born in 1810, meaning he was born in the Duchy of Warsaw; Congress Poland dates from 1815.

But let me put it another way: Chopin never qualified for Polish citizenship and never would have qualified for it for anything other than naturalisation, the same process which you yourself reject.
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
26 Aug 2013 #99
Duchy of Warsaw

That proto-PRL was a frog-controlled puppet state as everybody knows.
Harry
26 Aug 2013 #100
That's a matter of debate, but there's not much point in debating it with a man whose knowledge of Polish history is so poor that he doesn't even know where Chopin was born.
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
26 Aug 2013 #101
Chopin was born in 1810

Meaning he lived all of 2 years in that pseudo-mini-state. Until he emirgated he was officially a subject of the tsar.
Harry
26 Aug 2013 #102
Meaning he lived all of 2 years in that pseudo-mini-state.

Your display of knowledge just gets better and better! The Congress of Vienna was in 1815, not 1812, as every Polish schoolboy knows!

Until he emirgated he was officially a subject of the tsar.

Nope, he was, from the moment of his birth until his death, a citizen of France (the empire, the kingdom and finally the republic, if my French history serves me correctly).
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
26 Aug 2013 #103
Chopin was born to French parents

His motehr was Justyna Krzyżanowska, or maybe it was really Christine Crisané? His father was a 'naturalised' Pole, a Frenchman by blood but a Pole by choice.

Since some people attach importance to bureaucracy and paperwork, one could say that
both Chopin's parents were Polish.
OP goofy_the_dog
26 Aug 2013 #104
citizenship is bs.
what matters is whats in your heart.
as i said blood only accounts for a one percent of the polishness of an individual.
Nile 1 | 154
26 Aug 2013 #105
feeling Polish and actually being Polish are not the same thing.

If "we" exclude mental illness and a lie feeling X and being X would amount to the same thing.
Harry
26 Aug 2013 #106
His motehr was Justyna Krzyżanowska, or maybe it was really Christine Crisané?

She acquired French citizenship when she married her husband. I refer you to paragraph 12 of chapter 1 of the 1804 French civil code. She was French.

His father was a 'naturalised' Pole, a Frenchman by blood but a Pole by choice.

Really? Got any sources for that particular gem? Care to explain why FF Chopin's baptism certificate says the exact opposite?

Since some people attach importance to bureaucracy and paperwork, one could say that both Chopin's parents were Polish.

One could, if one wanted to be a liar. However, the priest who filled in Chopin's baptism certificate was not a liar. And neither were the people who gave Chopin his French passport.

As for FF Chopin himself, if he thought himself Polish, why didn't he apply for a 'laissez-passer' for foreigners living on French soil? He instead got the French passport which was his birth-right.
OP goofy_the_dog
26 Aug 2013 #107
i referred to the more poetic version of the heart.. as a soul would an old poet say.
pam
27 Aug 2013 #108
The year is 1850. A person is born in Krakow. Poland is off the map. Polish or not?

It's hardly a run of the mill question is it?
Galician Pole :)
Paulina 13 | 3,837
27 Aug 2013 #109
As for FF Chopin himself, if he thought himself Polish, why didn't he apply for a 'laissez-passer' for foreigners living on French soil? He instead got the French passport which was his birth-right.

Harry... lol
Judging by his letters (which I could read because I know... Polish language) he considered himself Polish.
His friend and lover, George Sand, said he was "more Polish than Poland".
When he left Poland he took a goblet of Polish soil with him.
Even his contemporaries (like another composer and pianist, Liszt) considered him as not only a Polish artist but a Polish patriot, and even a nationalist, it seems lol:

Nationalism

Schumann acknowledged the strength of Chopin's strong feelings to his native Poland in his 1836 review of Chopins' piano concertos, when he wrote that "Now that the Poles are in deep mourning [after the failure of the 1830 rising], their appeal to us artists is even stronger ...

Quote from: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fr%C3%A9d%C3%A9ric_Chopin
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
27 Aug 2013 #110
Only someone with the limited mentality of a 'bezduszny służbista' (heartless letter-of-the-law clerk) would split hairs over what paperwork Chopin had completed or failed to complete without reocgnising the unquestionable Polish soul reverberaitng throughout his works and his life. It's like the little boy who couldn't see the forest becuase the trees got in the way.
mochadot18 17 | 244
27 Aug 2013 #111
what matters is whats in your heart.

And who are you to tell others what is in their own hearts?????
Harry
27 Aug 2013 #112
His friend and lover, George Sand, said he was "more Polish than Poland".

You seem to forget that at the time when she said that, Poland didn't exist, so anything which claimed to be Polish was more Polish than something which didn't exist.

One does wonder why if Chopin was so Polish he chose to live in France as a Frenchman. Perhaps you can explain that?

Quote from: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fr%C3%A9d%C3%A9ric_Chopin

Oh, I am sorry: if wikipedia says it, it must be true, right....

his life.

A life he chose to live in France as a Frenchman, a bit like somebody who we all know who claims to be Polish but instead chooses to be American and refuses to become Polish.
smurf 39 | 1,981
27 Aug 2013 #113
And who are you to tell others what is in their own hearts

+1
Archyski - | 45
27 Aug 2013 #114
I'm born and raised in denmark, but my parrents are both polish.. And my father taught me the language, I don't speak it fluently though. He also taught me the history, the battles, WW2 and all the movies we saw togehter, were polish.

So even I don't speak polish fluently and never lived in Poland, I do feel polish.
legend 3 | 664
27 Aug 2013 #115
Good, you are Polish, but do visit Poland.
Archyski - | 45
27 Aug 2013 #116
I did visit PL, many times. And I do feel home, meanwhile I'm there.
Paulina 13 | 3,837
27 Aug 2013 #117
You seem to forget that at the time when she said that, Poland didn't exist, so anything which claimed to be Polish was more Polish than something which didn't exist.

Harry, don't be a petty a$$hole, please.
Your denial of facts really makes me wonder.
Chopin considered himself Polish, he was a Polish patriot and he was viewed a Pole and a Polish patriot by his contemporaries.
Why do you have such a problem with that? Only because Polonius3 writes that Chopin was Polish? Do you see anything else around you besides your conflict with Polonius3? Don't you think it went too far already?

Or maybe it hurts your Western soul that some great composer considered himself Polish? lol
What the hell is wrong with you?

One does wonder why if Chopin was so Polish he chose to live in France as a Frenchman. Perhaps you can explain that?

Chopin was travelling around Western Europe when the November Uprising of 1830 broke out. He was with Tytus Woyciechowski in Vienna when the news reached them. Woyciechowski returned to Poland to enlist. Chopin stayed. From what I've read his friends and family told him not to go because they didn't want for such a talented man to die in an uprising. Chopin wrote to a friend '"I curse the moment of my departure."

The November Uprising was crushed. Chopin arrived in Paris in late September 1831. He would never return to Poland, thus becoming one of many expatriates of the Polish Great Emigration. He got the French citizenship in 1835 and travelled on a French passport.

Paris was a cultural and artistic centre of Europe, many artists went there, including Poles. Olga Boznańska, a Polish painter, was one of them.

Some Poles emigrated to further their careers. Maria Curie-Skłodowska, unable to get accepted into any Russian (Poland was partitioned) universities (due to her gender and the anti-Polish repercussions of the January Uprising), pursued her studies in Paris from 1891.

Also Chopin was half French, since his dad was French, so it's only natural, considering the situation in partitioned Poland, that he chose Paris which was sympathetic to the Polish cause and had already become the home of many Polish émigrés.

You know about dany_moussalli, a PF user from Syria? Because of the situation in Syria his parents are sending him and his brother to study in Poland. Those boys have some Polish roots and they have Polish passports already. Do you think they aren't Syrians anymore? lol

Oh, I am sorry: if wikipedia says it, it must be true, right....

Oh, ffs, you are like kondzior now? lol Wikipedia is no good as long it doesn't fit your views? You have never linked to Wikipedia on this forum?

If Wikipedia says it, it doesn't mean it isn't true either.

Sources are given there, if you haven't noticed:

Schumann (1988), 114.
Franz Liszt, Chopin, 1852, p. 163.
Taruskin (2010), 344–5.
Taruskin (2010), 346.
Rosen (1995), 361-3.

And who are you to tell others what is in their own hearts?????

+1000!
Harry
27 Aug 2013 #118
He got the French citizenship in 1835

That very simply is not true: Chopin was born a French citizen.

Your denial of facts really makes me wonder.

Would you care to quote a single fact which I deny? Or is that comment just another of the untrue things you love to say about me?
Paulina 13 | 3,837
27 Aug 2013 #119
That very simply is not true: Chopin was born a French citizen.

I just quoted the English version of Wikipedia (the source for this is Szulc (1998), 69 but maybe it's a mistake and it was only about passport). I can't find anything about his citizenship in Polish Wikipedia and in Encyclopedia Britannica.

Btw, how do you know he was born a French citizen? Did his father retain French citizenship?

Would you care to quote a single fact which I deny? Or is that comment just another of the untrue things you love to say about me?

You deny the fact that Chopin considered himself Polish and his contemporaries considered him Polish and a Polish patriot.
No?
You don't deny that?
Then I'm all ears.
Write that you accept the fact that Chopin considered himslef Polish and his contemporaries considered him Polish and a Polish patriot.
Harry
27 Aug 2013 #120
I just quoted the English version of Wikipedia (the source for this is Szulc (1998), 69 but maybe it's a mistake and it was only about passport).

Wikipedia is often wrong when it comes to subjects related to Poland. You'd do much better to look at actual source documents (which are banned from use by Wikipedia authors).

Btw, how do you know he was born a French citizen? Did his father retain French citizenship?

I know he was born a French citizen because (and I'm repeating myself here) I know what the 1804 French civil code says (i.e. a woman who marries a Frenchman acquires French nationality upon marriage and a child born to French parents is French at birth) and I know what it says on FF Chopin's baptism certificate (Chopin snr is listed as being French) and what it says in FF's French passport ("né de parents français", i.e. born to French parents).

You deny the fact that Chopin considered himself Polish and his contemporaries considered him Polish and a Polish patriot.

Do I really? Perhaps you could be so kind as to quote me saying that. Either that or apologise for yet again lying about what I say.


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