Individualism in Polish culture...Is it almost Nonexistant?

Are we talking about individualism in the political sense (as opposed to collectivism), or rather individualism being used as a synonym of eccentricism? These are not exactly the same thing, just as their antonyms (collectivism vs. conformism) aren't.

Poles tend to be clearly anti-authoritarian, and this is why I describe them as individualistic. Diversity, IMO, has little to do with individualism (the latter being concerned with the ability of making individual decisions, not with the final outcome).

that's individualism if there ever was one :-)

The Polish people have the freest society on Earth that I have experienced. They also enjoy the most individual liberty. And the society appears to be relatively "flat" rather than hierarchical like the Anglo and Germany societies. In Poland a bar may have people ages 16 to 50. This would NEVER happen in Anglo or Germanic societies for a variety of reasons.

I just don't see how one would think that. How can a society be individuals with no diversity? It seems quite counter-intuitive.


but it's not if so many people are arguing the same point, or even just arguing just to argue. there's no genuine uniqueness to just "disagreeing".


Just saying, "I don't like it when people tell me what to do," very often is completely disconnected to being an individual. Most of the time, it's just a natural reaction to suppression. It's human nature to not want facism but those that feel that way are not suddenly individuals because they think so.

Let's look at say North Korea. A completely controlled society, totalitarian, and surely there are plenty of people that hate living there for that reason. Does that make them individuals?

I think much is overlooked when it comes to individual liberty. Things that seem small are actually quite significant when considered in aggregate. What I saw in Poland:

No leash laws for dogs
Low drinking age
Low age of consent
People seem to drive and park however they want
I'm told there's no property tax on residences
Very liberal society compared to the prudish West (girls handing out fliers to strip clubs around families and nobody minds)
Police were often unarmed and I saw little harassment of citizens (compare this to the automatic weapon touting cellar cad steroid fueled thugs of the West)

Oh, and I didn't even get molested or irradiated at Chopin international.

I don't know exactly what kind of "individualism" you're referring to, but I'll take real freedom over superficial expressions of choice any day.

But it's not just about saying it - it's about living it! :-) And doing your own thing.

Poland used to be a socialist country, just like North Korea. Now think how that turned out in Poland. ;-)

again, totally off topic.


Off topic but.....Poland IS a socialist country and North Korea.....are you kidding? Try totalitarian.

Now I get the jist of the thread.

Let's just say that the core family structure (husband, wife, children) is the root of tribalism and that tribalism is itself the root of societies. The campaign to destroy the family is a campaign to destroy nations and cultural identity. Disconnected, isolated individuals are much easier for central government bureaucracries to dominate than tightly knit communities of like minded individuals that share a common culture.

One of the causes of massive divorce rates in the West is that government is always there to step in and play the role of Patriarch for a woman and her children. This undermines the male role in the core family and encourages woken to bail on a whim rather than tough it out through good times and bad.

But ultimately, if you read the Communist Manifesto and more modern works by the hard Left you can easily discern their disdain for the family and religion as obstacles to their totalitarian vision of how society should be managed. Luckily for them, in the "West" at least it has been enough to indoctrinate the youth via the compulsory pubic schools and mind destroying TV and film media.

So insofar as Poland may lack what you call "individualism ", I say good. At least Poland has a culture and identity whereas the people in the West are automatons within systems they neither chose nor understand, ultimately distrustful and paranoid of their neighbors to whom they rarely, if ever, speak.

Poland is not a socialist country - but the UK definitely is. Off topic, I agree.
Please bear in mind that North Korea and Poland started their adventure with communism / socialism in exactly the same way. Poland used to be a totalitarian country, too (Stalinism, anybody?)

Can you spot the differences in their further development?

it is the question, and title, of the thread. it's not about whether individualism is good or bad in Poland, it was asking if they are individualistic.....or not.


I still can't agree with this. Communism, as hard core as it can be at times, is still not North Korea. I mean.....have you seen any documentaries on the place? Footage of how they live? It's siiiiiiick.

North Korea still considers Kim Jong Il's dead father as the ruler of the country which is a perfect opportunity to literally do whatever they want with their people because any decision those in power decide to make can be accredited to a dead person's wishes, and who could argue with the supreme being? Starting to sound dangerously religious, isn't it. I'm not the first person to make that suggestion about North Korea, but i digress.


again, why are you talking about, and comparing Poland to, the West. totally off topic again, dude.

merriam-webster.com/dictionary/individualism

In my earlier posts, I have been referring to the first meaning. As for the second meaning, indeed, in terms of "individual peculiarities" and "idiosyncrasies" Poles are not very much diversified.

I'm sure this is a big deal for Poles living in their home country, but when I say the smothering influence of the family is bad, I'm talking about immigrants living in contemporary America. It creates a culture clash and the customs are totally unnecessary. Not to say families shouldn't stick together, but many take it to an irrational, extreme level.


I think I'm going to have to agree with you here. Individualism is not a "refusal to cooperate." I tend to think of cultures in which you see the same distinctive traditions and customs of a nation, and same personality stereotypes as more collectivist rather than indvidualist. I think a lot of this is probably from the influence of the catholic church. Although I will say that Magdalena is right in saying that MOST people aren't stubborn and uncooperative . Polish culture isn't really individualist, Poles just have to process ideas through their own head and follow their own will, whatever it may be. They will never take someone's word for something. Being stubborn and opinionated is different from being individualistic in which you are influenced by your own unconventional ideas rather than tradition. There may be very individualistic Poles, but as a whole their culture is not very individualistic IMO.

I wanna tell you what them Polish reminds me of. Them Polish reminds me of them punks, like not the derogatory punk, but them fo' real PUNKS, of the late 70's, early 80's, what had that DIY, "Do It Yourself" attitude. They know **** is ****** up. They know nobody is gonna help they ass but them. They roll up they muffuckin sleeves and do what needs to be done. And that is as "individualistic" or whatever the hell you wanna call it, right there.

And that's NOT individualistic. Riiiight. :->

Nope. It's a brain naturally processing information proceeded by logical action. Never taking someone's word for it, that's stubborness, fear, untrustworthyness, survival instinct, or some combination of those things.

Crows are very weary and careful birds, always on the lookout and they spook very easily and they act that way to protect themselves from predators. And every single one is the exact same way.

And you know this how, exactly?

This Pole is quite individualistic:

youtube.com/watch?v=n4yppiNhDKU

It's not hard to tell just by observing it in general. Let me repeat myself for clarity, I am not saying Polish people are not individualistic necessarily, I'm saying the culture isn't. Culture is gradually influenced by the masses over time and as things change. If a culture even has stereotypes at all, it usually can't be very individualistic. For example, I can't really make out a clear stereotype of a Brit or a Frenchman or an American. Most Western European countries are pretty individualistic, but there were times when they weren't.


eeew, sick, why did you post a link to that. You ruined my day.

PF MEMBERS, DO NOT follow the link, it is sickening and you will be sorry you did.

But what do you know about the culture, living in America?

I know because I hear about it from my family, and I study history. But when I assume to know something about Polish culture, I'm talking about Polish-American culture in their communities. Some of these things I just know because I subconsciously follow them, even though I wasn't raised in Polish culture. I never said I knew anything about a country I've never been too, but one can get a pretty good idea from studying history from books and on the internet.

Which has precious little to do with Polish culture these days.

Please don't mix up the two.

It was you who was doing that all along. I always insinuated that I was talking about Polish people in America. Yes, I am aware that "these days" globalism is taking over and every corner of the earth is slowly turning into a hell hole.

I'll try to make it short: you are a relative newcomer here, so you may not realize that you are not the first one to come up with one of the statements like this: "All Poles are X", where X are usually derogatory, rarely neutral, and sometimes laudatory. But they all have something in common: logically, they are all false.

All Polish women are pack rats. False, some are.
All Polish women are beautiful. False again, some are.
All Polish woman have big tits. False again, some have.
All Poles are conservative. False again, some are.
And here comes your own statement: "Poles are collectivists at heart". [You did not use the quantifier "all" but you implied such.] So guess what? You statement is as much worth as the other statements, including the one about the tits.

And here is where I should really stop and conclude, since I assume you are a reasonable person, ready to recognize you own errors in judgement.

==========

But in case you are still prepared to fight the battles, I am willing to provide some extra "ammunition" here:
+ I assume that your research in this topic is very amateurish: you are not a scientist specializing in some field of social science or anthropology. You do not spent countless hours in some gloomy libraries researching the subject, you do not write scientific papers and you do not go through devastating peer reviews. You have nothing to stand on here. You are just an opinionated person, as anyone else here. In case I am wrong here, I am ready to apologize and revise some of this.

+ I do not know what kind of historical books you read. There are books and books. Some are really debatable. I also read tones of historical books, and papers. But that does not make me an expert. I am still an amateur.

+ Internet? You know as much as I do, that every Internet topic has both proponents and opponents. Not much help here.
+ How many people do you really know well enough to categorize them as individualistic vs. collective types? 100 maybe? 1000 at most. 10,000 impossible. So granting you these 1000 people, and making them accessible to you for yor research: what kind of methodology you have used to collect and analyse your data, compute statistical errors, and go through all these estimates in order to present us with your sweeping observation. If you did not do any of this, than again your conclusions are worthy exactly ZERO.

Here is you opening post:


I am going to ignore that bit about Jews because it sounds like a strange agenda. Other than that:
+ You do accept that Polish nation have produced some great leaders over centuries: political, military, cultural, scientific. Where did they come from, if not from very "individualistic attitudes" per se.

[The quotes in the sentences below are your own words]
+ So in your opinion, Joseph Conrad was "a collectivist at heart" or "an individualist" influenced by his "own ideas"? If the former, justify your claim based on his life and his literary works.

+ In your opinion, Maria Curie-Skodowska "was just stubborn and opinionated", or "just had to process idea through her head and follow her own will, whatever it may be?".

We could go on and on: for every single "collective" person from your pool of 1000 I could present you with a real life figure that strongly qualifies and individualistic: rebellious poets, vanguard theater directors, composers, mathematicians, painters, etc. Soon you would run out of your cases, believe me.

I rest my case.

I do not claim to be a social scientist or anything other than an opinionated person, but I am confident in the inferences I make based on what I observe. You are totally misinterpreting what I said. I tried to explain it a thousand times. Let me quote myself. [Let me repeat myself for clarity, I am not saying Polish people are not individualistic necessarily, I'm saying the culture isn't. Culture is gradually influenced by the masses over time and as things change.] These are not just things I've observed in Polish people, but all cultures. Although this varies quite widely in America and other western countries like it, people of a certain group tend to automatically inherit and absorb cultural personality traits of their kin. I can look around me and observe these things and see for myself that it is fact, I don't need to conduct sociological experiments or read scientific journals to know this is the case. I am merely stating my opinion for it to be heard, I have never understood why people on the internet are so hung up on members posting "scientific proof" for their beliefs, which is about as "debateable" as the history books and sources you point out. Anyone with an agenda can try to cherry pick their way into proving their hypothesis.

OF COURSE there are individualistic Poles who contributed to the culture, I was never saying that POLISH PEOPLE can't be individualistic like anyone else. Just from what I can see in traditional Polish culture is that individuality is not naturally encouraged through that culture. I am not saying this because I know a lot of Polish people, I'm saying it because I can tell that what is considered the cultural mainstream is not individualistic, because of history and religion. I know what individualism is, and I know on my own terms that cultural traits are absorbed into the next generation, further strengthening the cycle of what it promotes. Nothing is so black and white like you are making it out to be. On one hand someone could be very individualist and contribute something very original, but on the other they are absorbed into a culture that is altruistic/collectivist and they can't see anything else, so they are not an individualist in the pure sense. All cultures are collectivist to an extent, otherwise they wouldn't even be a culture. It is a very complex and abstract issue.

Hi! Elephant in the room here, nice to meet you.

Clears his throat (or trunk I guess).....drum roll......Hey Delph, what do you know about Polonia..........living in Poland?

I'll take a step back for a second, let me help you out. We'll take it slow:

Here's what PolkaTagAlong wrote:


That's her opinion/observation. Do you have a rebuttal? Do you agree/disagree? Make your point. If you have one.

While you're at it, construct a new thread titled "Why I hate Polonia in the USA" so that instead of routinely derailing perfectly good threads on this forum to continuously spread your never ending agenda to trash Polonia in the USA, you'll have somewhere to default to. Just remember, every time you post something on that thread, you're commenting about a culture you've never actually seen.......ever. Because they live in America. And you've never been there.

PolkaTagAlong,Very well put.I agree with your cultural references;when it comes to all cultures.

Issue 1:


I am sorry, but you actually misquoted yourself. In the first post you clearly said:


Those are not the same things. Ignoring your logical lapse here (you actually reversed the meaning of your intentional statement), your original statement actually implies this: there can hardly be individualistic Poles, because the Polish culture prevents them to becoming ones.

Changing horses in midstream is fine, but at least admit to it.

Issue 2:
So according to you, it is fine just to ramble you opinion, without regards to historical truth, social data, reality or scientific principles. Well, this is fine with me but forgive my lack of enthusiasm to your methods of the type: "because I know", "because I sense", or "because I can tell the difference". Yours is just one person's opinion, to which you obviously have full rights, but which means actually nothing to me or to general population as a whole - until hypothetised and then proven either by social experiment, or at least by a theory.

While your statement:


makes sense but then you have not discovered America here. Of course they are, nobody contests that. But the collectives are not static - as you seem to be implying by invoking YOUR national/religious generic model of Polish society, based on your observation of American Polonia - but they change dynamically. You were given countless examples here of adaptation of unruly individualistic Polish societies into very cooperative organisms working well together in emergencies. That's the dynamics.

Boletus,she's asking if Polish cultural mindset allows for individualism,had she said Polish cultural mindset doesn't;She's asking not stating,at least from what you quoted.Big difference where you put doesn't.

I thought it was a rhetorical question, which in fact is.
But touché, in formal terms. :-)

boletus,I see what you mean,I thought you meant she actually had stated,my bad.Touche lol.As I had said,I was just going on what you had quoted.I will have to read this thread to establish if it was strictly rhetorical.