Individualism in Polish culture...Is it almost Nonexistant?

Wow we are on page 2 and nobody has launched into a debate about the jews. There might be hope....

Oh c'mon man, that doesn't count and you know it. It's like if I go from one state to another. In reality, all these countries were Soviet republics, we all know it.

High schools !?
Is that wide enough for you?


Because nobody with decent English wanted to work as a teacher !

Did people in the UK (for instance) really go much further than Spain and Italy during the Cold War? Not really.


He won't admit it, it doesn't fit in with his image of Poland being a place full of backwards peasants.

That topic is already elaborated and private opinions are just lay impressions.

Here the quote:
Individualism
The fundamental issue addressed by this dimension is the degree of interdependence a society maintains among its members. It has to do with whether people's self-image is defined in terms of "I" or "We".

In Individualist societies people are supposed to look after themselves and their direct family only. In Collectivist societies people belong to 'in groups' that take care of them in exchange for loyalty.

Poland, with a score of 60 is an Individualistic society. This means there is a high preference for a loosely-knit social framework in which individuals are expected to take care of themselves and their immediate families only. In individualistic societies offence causes guilt and a loss of self-esteem, the employer/employee relationship is a contract based on mutual advantage, hiring and promotion decisions are supposed to be based on merit only, management is the management of individuals.

The Polish culture houses a "contradiction": although highly individualistic, the Polish need a hierarchy. This combination (high score on power distance and high score on Individualism) creates a specific "tension" in this culture, which makes the relationship so delicate but intense and fruitful once you manage it.

Therefore, the manager is advised to establish a second "level" of communication, having a personal contact with everybody in the structure, allowing to give the impression that "everybody is important" in the organization, although unequal.

Geert Hofstede researched that area thoroughly, I opened a thread named cultural dimensions which allows comparisons between cultures on 4 dimension he isolated.

Precisely what I routinely heard from all my older students.

Thanks Fuzzy

I was in secondary school in the eighties and most of my friends had English at school, I did as well. This was in Warsaw though so the percentages might be a bit skewed. Some teachers were good, some brilliant, some unbelievably bad ;-)

Nevertheless, a lot of people got at least a smattering of English, which many then chose to forget the way I chose to forget trigonometry and chemistry. English was also routinely taught at universities of course. There were also private and state-run foreign language courses, and many people went down the self-study route.

So people who tell you they don't speak English because they didn't have the chance to learn are most probably avoiding the truth. I have heard that excuse countless times myself and most of the time I can tell it's not the gospel truth ;-) They are probably embarrassed to admit that they weren't that keen on studying English anyway and then forgot what little they had learnt once they left school.

I spent most of my time from '78 - '85 in Silesia. I just wasn't impressed with how the students, any of them,
could speak. vocab, grammar, annunciation, etc all very weak BUT how they could szprechac' in German and Russian. Now that was impressive!

Very interesting...

I want to know how access to the media makes a culture more individualistic? LOL.

DD, I thought you were smarter than that :-) The answer is, they could go anywhere they wanted, Poles couldn't.

4 eigner, this is not about "could" but about "would". And would they? I met plenty English in 90's that only ever went to France, Spain or Portugal.

wrong, exactly the other way around. When I was in Poland, many Poles were telling me that one of the biggest problems back then was lack of freedom and a part of that freedom was the ability to travel around the world. They would travel much more if they were allowed to. Just look at it now, you see them anywhere you go.

They could still travel to other countries from Eastern Block. I was refering to proximity of the travel average Kowalski or average Smith was likely to undertake. If you are talking about all countries then there is no comparison.

Indeed - Brits went on package holidays to Spain, Poles went to Bulgaria.

no problems with that but ask Poles if they rather traveled to Spain too instead to Bulgaria ;-) (talking back then).

Here's the difference (I can't believe we're even discussing this):

Poles: "Sir, you can go here, here, here, or here."

Brits: "Sir.....you can go anywhere you want."

what is has to do with individualism ?

Bulgaria, probably - Spain was (at the start of the package holiday boom) still very much under the control of the Falangists, and not a particularly pleasant place for people from Communist countries ;)


And what has this got to do with how individualistic Poles are?

As I'm sick of saying - just because your lifestyle in Poland was small flats, kotlet schabowy and no job security doesn't mean that everyone is like that.

If you look for individualism you have to look at art and music.

And I'm sick of asking the mods to do something about your constant personal attacks. It's getting pretty ridiculous.

Make your point. No, seriously....why did you just say that. Make your point.

I doubt you have ever been in any of KDL countries then why do you post like you know anything?It wasn't like going from "state to state" and Soviet republics were a different cup of tea.Seriously, don't talk about something you have very little idea about.


I can't believe you are discussing it as you didn't live in PRL either and what you are saying has very little to do with the truth.There were 2 kinds of passports 1 only for KDLs the other for the rest of the world.The KDL one you could keep at home but the other one was kept by Milicja.Anybody could buy a tour with Orbis,Juventur or Gromada travel agents for dewizy.Then you had to go to Milicja and ask them to give you your passport (which you had to later return to them).You were also allowed to buy a small amount of dewizy at official rate.My parents were never refused passport and in the years 1983-1987 they travelled to countries like Denmark,Sweden,Germany,Greece,Turkey,Thailand and Columbia.

Grubas, I talked to many Poles when I was there and I've been repeatedly told that there was no freedom in Poland "za komuny" whatsoever and that the decisions were made in Moscow. If you deny that, then you have a very little idea about it, my friend. It wasn't just one or two people who told me that but just about anyone I've met there (whoever lived there as an adult before 1989).

What do you mean "whatsoever"?As for freedom,there is no true freedom wherever institution of state exists.I am not saying it to defend komuna but like any system it had its pros and cons.


I am denying this:


I travelled (za komuny) to Czechoslovakia,Romania,Hungary and East Germany and I can tell you there were differences because I have seen them with my own eyes.

that was exactly my experience. unanimously they said that they had no freedom, couldn't travel, couldn't afford to even if they were able to, stores were empty, etc.

Howard Hughes chose to live like a recluse.

Spain was just an example. What I basically meant was that Poles would rather travel to any country outside the iron curtain.


Well, of course you had to have a passport but other than that, the whole system was run from Moscow and we both know it's true.

+ They had no freedom: One had a freedom to do almost anything but plotting against "komuna". Theater, Philharmonic, student cabarets with political subtext, western movies, kayaking, trekking, sport, dining out, visiting, getting drunk and talking politics with your friends.[ The latter would be very risky in Soviet Union and East Germany.]

+couldn't travel: One could travel West if he/she was not considered a threat to the system. In DDR no - unless one has reached the retirement age. They could travel to Poland though, to meet their friends from Western Europe. I know such cases by heart.

+ couldn't afford to even if they were able to: There was a limit how much hard currency one could officially exchange. If I remember well, it was $100 limit per person max. So Polish tourists were dirt poor then. But then some would trade goods, some would work for few weeks a time then continue travelling

+stores were empty: True. But then there was a second circuit. A peasant woman would bring a good choice of mutton or veal, from illegal home butchery. So once every two weeks there was some meat on the table...

Do not tell me you know better. I lived there. I travelled. I worked to travel (doing vendange in Beaujolais, Roussillon). I travelled through Pyrenees, visited hippie communities. I spent my best ever cross country skiing - two weeks in Vercors, French Alps. But I also participated in international conferences where I met a lot of international friends. I participated in international postdoctoral school in Italy - 45 days altogether. I went to Finland, Austria, crossed the DDR, visited picturesque towns of Baden-Wurttemberg, West Germany, Switzerland, France, Spain. I slept in open fields or in apartments of good people who had offered me not only a ride but also a meal, good drink or a party in town. My best German buddy lived in Stuttgart, and we had been in touch for many years. He visited me in Poland several times and he enjoyed sailing Masurian Lakes and trekking Bieszczady Mountains with me and my family.

And I did not have to live in an apartment bugged by STASI, as some of my East German friends had to. Was the life tough in Poland? Sure it was. But it was paradise compared to East Germany. I hated many things there, but that's quite a different story. One day I had enough and emigrated.

P.S. I am going out now...

They did have some good stuff in East Germany eg.Simson and MZ motorbikes and kichen robots and I think they had more stuff on the stores shelves but their preserves were substandart (freaking jelly with no fruits at all).

Praktica cameras with the Zeiss lens!


yes


yep


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