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Polish culture versus rotten West


pweeg3
19 Feb 2016 #151
How was that when you live in Australia

Quite obviously he doesn't live in Australia, unless he's going to claim that he doesn't sleep at night so he can post on Polish Forums.

Its also likely that he lives East of Poland, given his hate of the West (which, as any Pole will tell you, includes Poland) and his Putinist opinions.
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
19 Feb 2016 #152
70 years after independenc

I don't quite follow what independence has to do with this. Are you saying British-occupied Ireland didn't have such problems? Maybe it's pruely statistical and not Ireland-specifc. At one time Eire had more priests per capita than most other countries. I think I saw somewhere that 10% of priests display homosexual tendencies, so 10% of a small number could be negligible but of a large number might become more visible and problematic. Just wondering? Re the treatment of unwed mothers in nun-run workhouses, I don't really know how that problem was handled back when in Poland. Maybe some other PF-er does.
OP Ktos 16 | 440
20 Feb 2016 #153
God Bless Poland. God Bless us all everyone here on the forum and beyond.

Try to keep this attitude when you are about to scratch which happens all to often, otherwise you will come out as a smiling assassin or "look good, do bad" Lech Walesa (UB informant).

This is the kind of attitude I am talking about when I mention the false facade of the westerners versus more straight forward but more confronting attitude of the Polish people. Western people all too often provoke, stab you here and there and then when you rise and openly challenge their perfidy they turn around and ask "what is wrong, what is wrong with you?" and "God bless everyone, don't be so sad nothing happened", and you end up looking like the bad guy where in fact it's the "angel" doing the dirty work only to smile later as if nothing happened.
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
20 Feb 2016 #154
Church finds it so difficult to deal with

Our bad American precedent has spread fear round the globe. Somehow the American Church let itself get roped into collective accountabiltiy for its employees' misdeeds. If a GM exec or assembly-line worker got caught buggering a little boy, no-one would have even contemplated suing the entire corporation. But RC dioceses in the States were taken to court and many went bankrupt as a result. The Polish Church has wisely pre-empted such an eventuality by declaring only the offender is accountable for his transgressions, not his employer.

IMHO any convicted paedo, priest or whatever profession, should be subjected to obligatory chemical castration and/or a minimum 25-year gaol term. Full stop.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,454
20 Feb 2016 #155
The Polish Church has wisely pre-empted such an eventuality by declaring only the offender is accountable for his transgressions, not his employer.

It will be interesting to see what happens in the future - employers are responsible for the safety of people in their workplace, so there's no guarantee that any such declaration will protect them.

IMHO any convicted paedo, priest or whatever profession, should be subjected to obligatory chemical castration and/or a minimum 25-year gaol term.

I don't agree with chemical castration (it can't be reversed, can it?), but we need far stronger controls in Poland. I introduced a lot of American/British best practices into work, but it's still a hell of a battle convincing people that child protection is important.

The RCC here would do very, very well to introduce proper child protection measures based on the British/American model. If they did, they could hold themselves up as being genuinely interested in child welfare, unlike 99% of other people in this country.
dolnoslask
20 Feb 2016 #156
"it can't be reversed, can it?" If they stop taking the drugs and become a danger again, best use the cave man club method to control these people, I am surprised that pol was being so lenient towards them, some genetic mutants are just too much of a danger for society.
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
20 Feb 2016 #157
n their workplace

Paedos don't necessarily limit their misdeeds to the workplace. When a priest buggered a boy beyond parish grounds and premises dioceses were held responsible nonetheless.

Re your depravity project, under Polish law the age of sexual consent is ridiculously low -- 15. If a 15-year-old is mature enough to take the conscious to engage in the adult act of copulation, then he should also be allowed to vote and sign legally binding contracts.

Nevertheless such is the law. But I wonder if agitating and spreading pro-preversion propaganda amongst minors (under 18) without parental consent is explicitly dealt with in the Polish consent law. If not, maybe it should be penalised,
delphiandomine 88 | 18,454
20 Feb 2016 #158
Paedos don't necessarily limit their misdeeds to the workplace.

Well, the workplace is outside the parish too. But what's interesting to me - a lot of the church sex abuse cases have been consensual, there have been very few incidents of priests actually forcing children into sex acts. This tells me that perhaps the problem is rather related to basic human needs - that perhaps it would make much more sense to allow priests to lead normal family lives.

Re your depravity project, under Polish law the age of sexual consent is ridiculously low -- 15.

Agreed. I'm not much of a fan of the 15 year old limit. 17 would be more acceptable in my view, particularly as it's not uncommon for 19/20 year old men to go after 15/16 year old girls. I know one case where a friend's daughter is 16 and her boyfriend is 20 - every time I see him, I can't help but think "...can't you get someone your own age?".

But I wonder if agitating and spreading pro-preversion propaganda amongst minors (under 18) without parental consent is explicitly dealt with in the Polish consent law.

As far as I know, it's an absolute no-no to do it.

Having said that, a conviction for child abuse (be it physical, mental or sexual) should be an immediate life ban from working with children again.
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
20 Feb 2016 #159
actually forcing children into sex acts

Is a 5, 10 or even 14 year old capable of consenting? If the paedo strips, regardless if he's a priest, postman or teacher of English, fondles the child or asks "wanna play a little game?", how many kids who look up to an older person will say "no"?
InPolska 11 | 1,821
20 Feb 2016 #160
@Pol3: they sure know how to talk to kids, to brainwash them, to threaten them if they dare talking.... Parents and society (through school and through official campaigns) should make kids aware that no one is to "touch" certains parts of their bodies. Since I have been in Poland, I have never seen any such official campaign.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,454
20 Feb 2016 #161
Is a 5, 10 or even 14 year old capable of consenting?

I don't remember how it works, but I think there's an age in which it's assumed that a child cannot give consent. But the law also distinguishes between ages - someone aged 45 that has consensual sex with a 16 year old is also breaking the law. I seem to recall that if you're in a position of authority over the child, the punishment is also more severe.

But you're right - I agree with you that it should simply be a blanket ban on any adult doing anything with a child under 18 and that it should be automatic prison with a lengthy sentence for doing so.

InPolska - there are some campaigns, but the problem is that there's a lack of widespread awareness of child protection issues. My written Polish isn't good enough, otherwise I would start a campaign to deal with it :(
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
20 Feb 2016 #162
official campaig

Someone influential should alert the education ministry to this.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,454
20 Feb 2016 #163
I wish I had the contacts at a high level there to do something about it.
InPolska 11 | 1,821
20 Feb 2016 #164
@Delph: where? on tv? (I admit I don't watch Polish tv ;)). I have never seen posters in the streets. As you expect, in a religious society, it is not so easy to talk about sex ;)). I can't imagine a poor Polish kid returning home in and telling his/her parents that a priest has molested him/her ;)). In school, I don't think it happens as often as it does in the Church but wherever it happens, it must be condemned and punished.

Does the Ministry of Education feel concerned about it? Or is it ... taboo? I know that in our "goldless" countries, officials are really concerned about issue and deal with it but in Poland? Is it another thing to hide under the carpet?
johnny reb 33 | 7,310
20 Feb 2016 #165
I can't imagine a poor Polish kid returning home in and telling his/her parents

that their tacher told them that homosexuality was normal and that they must accept it.
Might raise an eyebrow with a parent with any brains.

wish I had the contacts at a high level there to do something about it.

Contact Pigsy as I think he does.
InPolska 11 | 1,821
20 Feb 2016 #166
@Johnny: do you have personal experiences or do you just copy-paste what you have found in the net? I have personally never heard a teacher telling kids that homosexuality was normal or even talking about it. Do you personally know some teachers who do or some kids who have/had such teachers? If you consider the real meaning of the word "normal", homosexuality is (obviously) not but however some people for some reasons of which they are not responsible are homosexuals and they should have the right to live.

Can you give us concrete examples?
delphiandomine 88 | 18,454
20 Feb 2016 #167
Or is it ... taboo? I know that in our "goldless" countries, officials are really concerned about issue and deal with it but in Poland?

It's a lot more complicated than that. The problem mainly lies with a lack of qualified teachers - such things tend to end up being discussed by class teachers, who are frequently not qualified or able to talk about such issues with children. Some are, but many aren't. Others simply don't want to for religious or personal reasons, so you end up with campaigns that end up being quite ineffective.

The Ministry of Education now - who knows. They are ideologically opposed to sex education, but about child abuse - I really have no idea. All I know is that the existing controls are ineffective and need to be strengthened considerably. Ziobro has some proposals, but they do nothing to address the core problem that children are not encouraged to speak about it.

Still, it's an idea to put together a proposal for the Ministry. It has nothing to do with sex education, so perhaps, just maybe...someone will listen.
InPolska 11 | 1,821
20 Feb 2016 #168
The probem, Delph, is that when sex is taboo, when nobody is able/willing to talk about it, we end up with a lot of screwed up kids and adults.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,454
20 Feb 2016 #169
Exactly, it's a huge problem. It's one thing having strict punishments for offenders, but you also need to find out when they are offending - and that requires sex education so that they can talk about it freely.
nothanks - | 640
20 Feb 2016 #170
EU nations with "Far-Right" in power could be suspended: Hollande

brecorder.com/world/europe/279802-eu-nations-with-far-right-in-power-could-be-suspended-hollande.html

When is the next French terrorist attack? Ha-ha
Wulkan - | 3,243
20 Feb 2016 #171
HAHA what a lunatic, another proof that liberal progressiveness is a mental illness.
whocares
21 Feb 2016 #172
Hollande is an idiot. Just like Merkel.
Honest Pole
21 Feb 2016 #173
are still Slavs, let it not be forgotten!!! We are not westerners and thankfully we never will be, however, we are altering our identity too much to adjust to the culture of the West.

There aren't that many differences between westernized slavic countries like Poland and actual Western countries. Actually it's worse in many ways because Poland has negative traits of both West and Russia all in one.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,454
21 Feb 2016 #174
EU nations with "Far-Right" in power could be suspended: Hollande

I wish Hollande would say it how it really is - these countries won't get suspended, but there might just be problems with CAP payments and structural funds. I'm sure the EU could find...problems.
mafketis 34 | 11,898
21 Feb 2016 #175
And this is what I hate about the EU and western European leaders. There's no slightest effort made to address the concerns (quite legitimate) of tens of millions of voters - just mandarin pronouncements of what is acceptable and not acceptable.

There are reasons that far right parties are gaining in support across Europe and the out of touch technocrats running the EU think that if they ignore them then everyone else will as well.

I'm not actually against the EU in principle but if it falls the blame will fall almost entirely on cack-handed "leaders" like Merkel and Hollande....

And while the reactive fossils are wondering about what to do about the migrant crisis 11,000 just crossed over into Greece in the last three days.

Can anyone imagine what will be going on in May? Merkel and Hollande and a host of other members of the EU elite apparently can't.....
OP Ktos 16 | 440
21 Feb 2016 #176
There aren't that many differences between westernized slavic countries like Poland and actual Western countries.

The differences are narrowing but all can be reversed and Polish Slavs could go yet return to the old ways, even predating Christianity. Of course, not everything would look as it once was but Poland has the capacity to turn around its declining culture, all in the hands of thinking people of Poland and brave enough to take certain steps.
pweeg3
21 Feb 2016 #177
What, like invite Putin to occupy Poland again?

After all the Russians claim to be our Slav brothers, even though their blood was Asian for hundreds of years
InPolska 11 | 1,821
21 Feb 2016 #178
@Nothanks: When would Hollande have said this? No track whatsoever in French media including those CLOSEST TO FN ;). As to extreme right parties, I suppose you don't know that they are financed by Putin. French FN OFFICIALLY recognizes it and these days, le pen's (meaning "the head" in Gaelic) daughter publicly admits that her party (= family sect) is to seek help from Russia for 27 million euros. Even The Times has reported it.

I'm not crazy about EU but better EU than ... Putin ;).
Atch 17 | 4,087
21 Feb 2016 #179
Are you saying British-occupied Ireland didn't have such problems?

No, my own grandfather was sent to a very harsh orphanage run by nuns, during the years of British occupation. What I mean is that after Ireland gained independence in the 1920s the Church was accorded a very special place in Ireland, the Church and the State being almost one. It was a long time, probably only in the 1970s, before people began to feel that they could speak out and criticise the Church and indeed the media would have been reluctant to publish or broadcast such stories.

the false facade of the westerners

I'm just teasing you, you daft moo. It's called a sense of humour. That's how I am with my friends ( I don't have any enemies!). It's a common form of social interaction in Ireland and often in England too, sending each other up and slagging as it's called. Here's an article from an Irish newspaper that explains it. It's worth reading if you really want to understand someone else's culture which is very different from yours.

independent.ie/lifestyle/slagging-is-so-much-part-of-what-we-do-that-we-find-it-odd-when-someone-objects-26469553.html

I really do wish you well Ktos. You won't like to hear this from me, because nobody likes to be pitied, but I do feel quite sorry for you because you seem to be a very unhappy person. I hope you'll manage to get over that. You seem to be a bit better lately. That's good. All the best.
dolnoslask
21 Feb 2016 #180
run by nuns, Atch you take me back to my infant school in the uk, I still shiver when I see one in the street , luckily my faith was stronger than their violence towards me.

Don't get me wrong I was no angel., but these days they would be locked up.

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