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The right to own guns: would you support such legislation in Poland?


PolAmKrakow 2 | 1,998
16 Jan 2023 #1,921
@Lenka
Did I say anything about pleasing any group? I asked why not consider the opposition groups position? Why not at least look at it? The rigidity of the 70% is exactly why any remaining percentage would find them intolerable. It is exactly why the "opposition" hates PiS so much, and vice versa. Can people not even learn from mistakes that their own political leaders make every day? There is no good law or rules where all sides are not considered. Everyone here wants to ignore 23 to 30% of the country, and that is pretty fvcked up thinking.
Lenka 3 | 3,076
16 Jan 2023 #1,922
OK, we look at it and what? How should it look in your opinion?
PolAmKrakow 2 | 1,998
16 Jan 2023 #1,923
@Lenka
I think it looks the same as it does today with the exception that it should be accelerated. 6 months or longer is simply not acceptable in today's technologically advanced world. The fact that it takes a week or more after buying a new car to get license plates and take delivery of the car is also laughable. I am not saying that any of the requirements should change at all. In fact I would propose that when things move more quickly that every firearm purchase be required to also purchase a biometric gun safe for that weapon. Firearm ownership should not be so restricted that people cannot get them in a reasonable time period. A person could even have the option of paying for an accelerated permit as an option. This would not only satisfy those that want to own a weapon, but would probably create more jobs to sort through applications and more income for licensing. There are reasonable solutions to be found on both sides. There is no one sided winner in a gun control argument, only agreements that do not give either side everything and allow both sides to think they got something out of the deal.
Lenka 3 | 3,076
16 Jan 2023 #1,924
Few people could be happy with that but I can't see it making a difference. That falls under bureaucracy not relaxing gun laws.
PolAmKrakow 2 | 1,998
16 Jan 2023 #1,925
@Lenka
While you can't see it making a difference, it at least acknowledges the other sides concerns and gives them something even if it is only a small thing. I have never said to relax gun laws concerning the qualifications for ownership. I think the timelines for processing potential owners are simply insane. Those alone discourage ownership, could encourage illegal purchases, and inhibit people who want to pursue shooting sports, hunting or self-defense training from pursuing those. Making the process easier, and timelier is better for everyone on both sides. Gun ownership is allowed in Poland, anyone meeting the criteria can make the purchase and application. What I suggest is not only reasonable, but really quite overdue. If a criminal wants a gun in Poland he will get a gun, it is the same everywhere. With the age of 3D printers, and spare parts on the internet anyone can make their own gun in a few clicks. A better system will keep that from happening more often.
jon357 71 | 20,799
16 Jan 2023 #1,926
Everyone here wants to ignore 23 to 30% of the country, and that is pretty fvcked up thinking.

So are you suggesting that legislation should reflect minority or majority opinion in a democracy,?

acknowledges the other sides concerns

Does 'acknowledging' a minority opinion on a sensitive issue mean changing the law to reflect that opinion?
PolAmKrakow 2 | 1,998
16 Jan 2023 #1,927
@jon357
Legislation, good legislation, should reflect a consideration of all sides. Good legislation is recognizing that the majority is never perfect in its decision making regardless of which side has the majority. Majority decisions are not always the right way to address a problem.

Maybe PiS would stay in power a little longer if they allowed for some civil agreements between same sex couples to be recognized legally for instance. Maybe acknowledging teachers are underpaid, and meeting them in the middle for a pay raise would make PiS look a lot better and be seen as good legislation? Maybe the opposition acknowledging that 500+ is a program that cant be taken away or reduced now that its in place is a good thing? All kinds of scenarios that can acknowledge the other sides opinion or position and create legislation that is acceptable for everyone.

The whole winner take all position is bull$hit baby politics. It is what gets countries in trouble, like the US, like Poland. And make no mistake Poland is in trouble for a lot of reasons that you and I would likely agree on. Eliminating this issue, with improved action planning is smart politics because it will not get in the way of negotiating other issues. The control freaks on both sides need to wake TF up.
jon357 71 | 20,799
16 Jan 2023 #1,928
Legislation, good legislation, should reflect a consideration of all sides

It does already

The core of democracy however if the wishes and well-being of the majority. And there is no significant call in Poland for changes to the law

some civil agreements between same sex couples to be recognized

That also is a minor issue in Poland, and like weakening gun control laws, the majority are not lobbying for this

The whole winner take all position

That is not the current position with the law. The present situation has evolved to fit the needs of a safe society with very low levels of violent crime.
PolAmKrakow 2 | 1,998
16 Jan 2023 #1,929
@jon357
Your definition and my definition of "significant" are different. Any time 25% of people are not happy, that is a large enough group to recognize and try to keep satisfied.

You asked me a general question about legislation and I answered it. You did not ask me about this particular legislation.

Not once have I called for lowering standards of gun ownership. Streamlining the process is not weakening the process. Just like streamlining the car purchasing process is needed. Buy a car in the US or Canada and you drive away with new plates, registration and insurance in less than two hours if financed, less than an hour if paid in cash. Try buying a gun in US or Canada and have a criminal record and you will be denied in less than 15 minutes in 99% of the cases. This can be the same way in Poland through the new ETIAS starting up this year. The whole EU on the same background check network makes this possible and simply smart. Dont get through ETIAS and no need to continue the process, simple. Get through it and you move on to the psyche portion. Get that done, go file the documents and get your license. Shouldn't take more than a few weeks that way. Doesn't weaken the laws on the books at all, and it may make them stronger.
johnny reb 40 | 8,625
16 Jan 2023 #1,930
Majority decisions are not always the right way to address a problem.

We saw that happen in the U.S. when all the gun grabbers banged away (pun intended) that if the gun laws were relaxed that the U.S. would turn into the Wild West which turned out to be not true. In fact many areas the crime rate dropped.

The five Democratic cesspool big cities in the U.S.that are so poorly run gives the rest of the country a bad name.
Of course those five cities will be used for an example by the Liberals to speak for the whole country.
Poland will eventually relax it's gun laws as the Meth heads vicious crime starts to grow.
Lenka 3 | 3,076
16 Jan 2023 #1,931
it at least acknowledges the other sides concerns and gives them something even if it is only a small thing.

Hmm, to me it looks more like virtue signalling (isn't that the term?). You don't actually change anything but make it look like you do...

And I think you base it on what affects you and not necessarily what that group wants.
PolAmKrakow 2 | 1,998
16 Jan 2023 #1,932
@Lenka
It's called modernizing. You don't think that streamlining the process is change? Wouldn't it be nice if you could open a bank account in Poland without having to wait a few days? It's called modernizing. Maybe being able to drive away in a new car after you pay for it instead of waiting for someone in some office to process paperwork who might be on holiday or call in sick? Maybe the appearance of change is in fact change.
Lenka 3 | 3,076
16 Jan 2023 #1,933
I did open a bank account without waiting if my memory is not failing me but that is not the point.

People wanting easier gun access want change in the requirements not how long they will wait to get processed.
PolAmKrakow 2 | 1,998
16 Jan 2023 #1,934
@Lenka
Change in which requirement then? As for the bank accounts, I have opened three here and there is always a delay of a day or two. It is just another example of slow and tedious restrictions that everyone has to deal with needlessly. Delays for anything are simply needless especially with how much more tech savvy Europe is when it comes to banking and security.
Lenka 3 | 3,076
16 Jan 2023 #1,935
The one most commonly mentioned, I think, is the green light from local police chef, another the mention in law that to get gun for self protection you have to be able to show how you are in danger:

W przypadku ubiegania się o broń palną bojową w celu ochrony osobistej należy wykazać się realnym i potwierdzonym przez organ Policji zagrożeniem życia lub zdrowia wnioskodawcy;
PolAmKrakow 2 | 1,998
16 Jan 2023 #1,936
@Lenka
If a green light from a local police chief is a problem, then that should only realistically take place in major metropolitan areas. If I am in Sanok for instance it should be a same day procedure if everything else is in order. Warsaw or Krakow or another large city it would likely take more time, and that is reasonable.

The self-protection one doesn't make sense to me. If you are in danger, chances are you would already be a victim of some kind of crime by the time you got to the application process. So I might agree with changing that part. Proof, is subjective. What I see as danger, someone else may not, what someone else see's as danger I may see as a nothingburger. Only if there are standards set for proofs can there be a process like that. Admittedly I do not know if there are standards or not. Frankly anyone using that reason is only attracting unwanted attention to themselves anyway.
jon357 71 | 20,799
16 Jan 2023 #1,937
it should be a same day procedure

Why would we need to make such a procedure quicker?

Poland's gun control laws and procedures for obtaining a gun licence are effective and appropriate.

People wanting easier gun access want change in the requirements not how long they will wait to get processed.

Very much so; and there is no great appetite to change the status quo.
PolAmKrakow 2 | 1,998
16 Jan 2023 #1,938
@jon357
Who are you? You are no legal authority to make that opinion. If it takes 6 months its neither effective or appropriate. What if a person who wanted one for protection and was waiting for 5 months, a woman, was then stabbed to death by her ex boyfriend before getting her permit. Most violent crimes are crimes of passion. Most victims are not random. I went to law school. I studied both prosecutorial procedure, and defense procedure. I had a full year of education on violent crime defense, prosecution, and investigation. You want to talk like an authority and all you are is an opinionated activist. And you probably wonder why people tell you to FO all the time.
Paulina 13 | 3,328
16 Jan 2023 #1,939
inhibit people who want to pursue shooting sports, hunting or self-defense training from pursuing those.

That's simply not true, imho. If someone really wants to take up shooting as a sport or get a gun license for hunting, etc. they will get it in Poland. Apparently there was a significant increase in the gun permits being given in Poland in 2021 - 19 939 people got them in 2021 alone. Majority of them were for collectors (9 233), sports (6 tys. 806), hunting (3 676) and training related (113). Only 81 people got gun permits for self-defense.

If you want a gun for self-defense then that's different - you have to give a good reason to the police for that and I think it's better if it doesn't change.

Legislation, good legislation, should reflect a consideration of all sides.

I think it should first and foremost take into consideration common sense and situation in the country. Poland is a safe country, but there are, of course, situations in which I think getting a gun permit for self-defense should be fast-tracked - when someone's life is really in danger - if someone is persecuted by a stalker or is getting serious death threats, for example.

A person could even have the option of paying for an accelerated permit as an option.

No way. That would create a pathology - the rich would be getting the permits fast and not those who need it the most.
jon357 71 | 20,799
16 Jan 2023 #1,940
Who are you? You are no legal authority to make that opinion

Who are you for that matter?

This is a discussion forum not a courtroom.

The danger in making the procedure for obtaining a gun quicker is that it risks making it easier.

There are other safeguards that are important, like mandatory training in use and care of a firearm, membership of a state-regulated gun club, regular inspections of the weapon in question, quotas of ammunition for each user as well as psychological checks by a state-employed psychologist, not just prior to obtaining temporary permission to hold a firearm but annually.

As for your paranoid and hypothetical 'what ifs', firearms in Poland are for sport and for hunting; not for self-defence.

I went to law school. I studied both prosecutorial procedure, and defense procedure

It didn't do you much good, did it...

I had a full year of education on violent crime

Wasn't it 5 years?
PolAmKrakow 2 | 1,998
16 Jan 2023 #1,941
@jon357
No Jon violent crime studies are specialized. They are only one year in most cases. And clearly you do not read what others post. You just defend your uneducated position with more babble that's already been covered. You do not address the facts of violent crimes that are universal regardless of country. Your opinion, not based in fact, is all that matters, much like the radical left in the US. This is divisive, and not constructive. Not even wasting more time responding to this, it is not conversation, it is simply steadfast protection of opinion.
Barney 15 | 1,508
16 Jan 2023 #1,942
You just defend your uneducated position with more babble that's already been covered

That is exactly what you are doing, there is no desire as far as I can see to turn Poland into the US.

You want a gun on demand go live in the US... Poland love it or leave it
Miloslaw 14 | 4,912
16 Jan 2023 #1,943
, there is no desire as far as I can see to turn Poland into the US.

And no need either.
We don't have the level of violence and crime that the US has.
JR Jim repeatedly refused to answer my question "why does the US have so many violent drug addicts?" I can't answer why they have so many drug addicts, but the violence is purely down to their accessibility to guns.....
jon357 71 | 20,799
17 Jan 2023 #1,944
And clearly you do not read what others post.

What yuu actually mean here is: "disagree with what certain others post".

Not quite the same thing.

You ..... You .... You ... You ...

We, as inthe voters of Poland.

There is no need to make it easier to possess firearms. Crime levels are low, gun crime levels are very low.

We like it this way.

That is exactly what you are doing, there is no desire as far as I can see to turn Poland into the US.

Very much so. One look at the gun crime stats shows which place is getting it right and which isn't.
Paulina 13 | 3,328
17 Jan 2023 #1,945
You want a gun on demand go live in the US... Poland love it or leave it

YES! THIS!

Yesterday I somehow stumbled upon YouTube videos of courtroom proceedings in the case of Nikolas Cruz who killed 17 people in Parkland high school and I'm still reeling from it. He killed them with legally bought AR-15 rifle. There were so many of those mass shootings in the US that I don't even remember which one was it - whether I watched news coverage about it or not. I've watched those kids that survived, parents of victims, the sickening lawyers of the killer...

Who in THE RIGHT MIND would wish THIS upon Poland???

@PolAm, I was being polite, because I have nothing against you, but you must be detached from reality if you think you can lecture Poles on gun laws. FIX YOUR country first and then lecture us, because you people FAILED your kids. You FAIL your kids every time one of those school shootings happen. You FAIL your fellow citizens every time one of those mass shootings happen in malls, churches, concerts or wherever.

And don't tell me that guns don't kill people, because they clearly do kill them in American schools. And don't tell me that it's because of mental health service crisis in the US, because we have it in Poland too. The difference is though that our kids don't get SHOT DEAD in schools in freaking mass shootings.

At this point I don't care anymore why it came to this insanity in the US, how it got to be so bad, I don't care about your conviction that you have some kind of "God-given right" to bear arms, I don't care about your gun history, I just know that I DON'T WANT THIS in Poland:

youtu.be/YOTX-CCoLtU
Alien 12 | 2,675
17 Jan 2023 #1,946
the sickening lawyers of the killer...

Are you sure they are sickening? They are often public defenders. What are they supposed to do, propose the death penalty? Or what?
johnny reb 40 | 8,625
17 Jan 2023 #1,947
They are often public defenders.

These are the lawyers that can't get clients because they suck or are ordered by the court to take a court appointed case or two a year.

How confident would you feel with someone representing you like that on a murder charge?
We call them, "Public Pretenders."
They get their money for shuffling papers and that's it as in 'worthless'.
Meanwhile no one seems to be able to come up with how they would hypothetically defend themselves with a knife wielding person high on drugs or drunk out of their mind.
jon357 71 | 20,799
17 Jan 2023 #1,948
The US, like its parents England and Scotland, has an adversarial legal system.

That leads to lawyers saying some shocking things. It's par for the course and we're used to it there.
johnny reb 40 | 8,625
17 Jan 2023 #1,949
Meanwhile how they would hypothetically defend themselves with a knife wielding person high on drugs or drunk out of their mind.

I wonder if Paulina would use a gun, if she had one in her hand, on a rapist while he was raping her little sister ?
Paulina 13 | 3,328
17 Jan 2023 #1,950
Are you sure they are sickening?

Yes, those particular lawyers are, not because they were defending him, but because of the manner in which they were doing that and how they were behaving in the courtroom, towards the judge, parents, victims. One of those lawyers is under investigation by Florida Bar for showing a middle finger to the camera at that courtroom.


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