The right to own guns: would you support such legislation in Poland?

@jon357
I call it a train station, where I grew up that is what it is called. Your attempt to "correct" me using (sic) and then calling it a railway station is just another stupid attempt to make yourself look like you are some intelligent being. Your discourse is twisted and simply based on limited life experience and your own far left agenda.

@Paulina
Thank you for those poll results. While I generally do not trust polls, example the last two US presidential elections, the numbers you present are at least ground for discussion. While 70% do not want gun laws liberalized, 30% is not a number that can be ignored. 57% feeling less safe also means that 43% feel more safe of have no opinion. My point being, that while in a poll there is always one side that looks stronger than another, it is ignoring the other sides thinking and position that leads to trouble later. Every side's opinion needs to be considered. People who oppose gun laws being changed have a right to their opinion, as do people who support change.

The problem is when people say things like there is no appetite for change, when there clearly is if 30% say so. While not a majority, that would represent millions of people. Drilling down numbers needs to be done. How did men respond, how did women respond, what are the age and income demographics. Where are the yes and no responses coming from, what are the beliefs behind these responses.

Maybe the term "liberalized" is the wrong term to use concerning this issue. Maybe the term should be "expedited" or something along those lines. Because you also make a great point about the gun ranges and how many there are now. While I actively go in Krakow I had no idea how many there were. 450 gun ranges is a lot for a country the size of Poland. That is a lot of people who are interested in shooting and or training how to shoot. In the US the gun laws require a background check, that is electronic and very fast. In Poland there is a background check and mental health assessment. I like the mental health assessment component and think it should be universal. That said, it should not take 6 months or more to get through the process in Poland.

Centrist if anything, and on the matter of gun proliferation in Poland, entirely mainstream.

The right to own guns already exists in Poland. Strict controls exist. The strict and effective controls should never be weakened.

For those alienated by modern life and who can't fit into a religion drugs fill up some of that void....

You might not be able to believe in the resurrection but you'll sure beliieve that hit of dope drank that makes you fall asleep while standing up....

And all human activity at the margins tends to turn toward violence....

Why does this happen in the UK and not the US?

twitter.com/Tim_jbo/status/1426555962702196736

It doesn't happen much.

If anything, it's the way working class young men let off steam and without the fear of getting shot.

@jon357
You have no clue.

@mafketis
Look up Football tailgating in the US. You will see tens of thousands of fans from both teams in the parking lot of huge stadiums drinking, eating and enjoying the game day atmosphere together. Fights do happen, but not like hooligans. These are for the most part the most working class, blue collar people in the USA. Sport fans in the USA do not operate drug, gambling and other illegal operations like in Europe. We leave that to the mostly European criminal organizations.

You make a great point about religion, and I would extend that to family and other elements of a solid culture. If the foundation is not there, then chances are what is built on just loose stones will eventually crumble.

me too,but always holstered never did I see a person carrying one in a hand,front or back pocket,most Americans notice guns while there euros cant even judge who is packing.I have also seen security bringing cash to the bank also dont have there guns out unlike in the States.

Eloquent of you.

Do you really think that there is a need in Poland to weaken the strong gun laws?

At least twice it was somebody showing someone else a gun (both at night in public places). One instance freaked out a friend who wanted immediately to run away...


yeah.... It's a bit like sharks... when people see one they freak, not realizing they're all over the place in the sea/ocean just mostly not interested in eating people....


Exactly.... sports aren't an occasion for mass violence in the US (apart from world series/superbowl victory parties getting out of hand), even college football (the closest in fan spirit to European soccer leagues) there's no need to keep fans separate, even in really long rivalries...

@jon357
There is a need to streamline and modernize them yes, absolutely. It should never take six or more months for any able minded and body human being to get an approval regardless of what their reasoning is. Now, if Poland were invaded like Ukraine was, do you think Poland will just be giving away arms to everyone who wants one, or will everyone have to wait six months for approval? And once you cross that bridge, how likely will it be that people turn their weapons in after finding them useful in defending their lives and property?

You deliberately use the word weaken, when no one else has. You deliberately twist words and situations to fit your agenda and beliefs. And if you ever have to face an invading force, will likely be one cowering in the basement while your neighbors are killing soldiers to keep you safe. You know how many sane, able minded and able-bodied men and women in the US kill people in an unprovoked situation or a situation not requiring self-defense? Less than one tenth of one percent of legal gun owners. Legal gun ownership should not be something you have to wait for a bureaucrat to get off his a$$ walk across the room, get a stamp, and put a stamp and set of initials on 50 sheets of paper. It should be a process that is easy to understand, and easy to complete while maintaining safety standards acceptable to all people, not just people who have no education or experience with weapons.

Why not?


Gun crime statistics show that American fun control (or lack of it) doesn't work there. Why would people want lower standards in PL?

Because it works in switzerland?

Besides after the ukraine-russia war, like guns and grenades from bosnia in sweden, there will be even more guns aplenty in poland, but only the ukranian and some polish mafia will have them. best to get ahead of the curve now and regulate it properly.

Poland would dearly love to be like Switzerland in oh so many ways, however it isn't.

About weapons floating round Europe illegally after the war is over, perhaps it's time to tighten gun laws further.

As in London?

twitter.com/markwhiteTV/status/1614340181674319872

The idea of 'tightening' laws is an admission of defeat... once you have to legislate against something you've already lost...

Or a sign of victory in addressing a problem. Like weapons proliferation.


Child abuse, financial fraud, drunk driving, car theft; robust legislation is how these social ills are tackled.

And the current laws in Poland work well.

This is not about a plot for a bad movie. Any one dreaming about when they would want and use a gun should be barred from ever having one.

Safety laws should be tightened,

@Barney
What if someone wants to take up skeet shooting? Bird hunting? Game hunting? Maybe they tried it in another place and would like to continue at home.

@jon357
Thanks for making my point in your #1900 post. You are completely incorrect when you say gun control does not work. Because it does. Background checks are almost instant, and never more than 72 hours. 99% of all illegal shootings are performed by people with illegal or illegally obtained weapons. It is extremely rare that a legally obtained weapon is used in a criminal act when you look at the overall population. That said, I agree there are too many careless gun owners, and that is a big problem which is why I said from the beginning any gun purchase should accompany a mandatory smart gun safe purchase.

Amiga makes a great point. The number of guns available on the black market in the future in Poland will be astronomical, and they will be cheap. So when the criminals have them what do you think will happen?

Except it doesn't.


They aren't. In countries with developed gun laws, an assessment by a psychologist is often necessary; this should be a minimum.

Plus of course, criminal records checks aren't 'almost instant', especially id the individual has committed felonies and been imprisoned in a different country.


Hopefully a mandatory 5 year gaol sentence for illegal ownership of guns. It works elsewhere.


If a NATO state were ever invaded (presumably by r*SSia) do you think pistols at home would make the slightest difference?


Agreed.

Cut down on your quoting please

@jon357
A records check in the US literally takes less than an hour in most cases. For the 100th time, I think the psych checks are good and should be done for everyone. My point it 6 months to process is just stupid. You have a point with background checks in Poland though, they do take months, they check every EU member database, they do check Interpol, and they are extremely thorough.

If a NATO member is invaded it will take an average response time of 6 weeks to 2 months before NATO troops arrive in numbers enough to help. September 12, 2001 Article 5 was unanimously activated. It was not until October 7th that the first bombs began falling on Afghanistan, and the US military was already in the area for several years when it took nearly a month to respond. I wouldn't be counting on Article 5 to save anyone in a time frame that would make anyone feel safe at night.

I concur.
How can anyone voice their opinion in this thread without it being walk on IMMEDIATELY by the same person echoing the same exact words over and over and over to try to control the narrative with their shallow opinion to discredit all posts that bring light to this issue.

If this issue were to be put to a public vote in Poland (God forbid) it would answer this question clearly and put this Liberal propaganda to rest.

It takes longer in Poland, and of course has to be international if the person (as many Poles have) has spent time outside the country. And there's no reason at all to follow a non-European model; if anything regulations such as records checks etc. in EU member states are moving, for better or for worse, towards standardisation..

As for police checks, they can take longer than just searching databases. For my last job, I had to have either a DBS or a certifykat niekaralnosci from every country I'd spent more than three months in. This was reasonable given the nature of the job and took a very long time.


That's a very weak example. And Poland isn't about to be invaded.

If they were, domestic gun ownership would be neither here nor there. I take it you are aware of the usual punishment for francs-tireurs.


Will do. Normally I take care to keep it to max. three but forgot that time. On a roll today due to some very good news.

@jon357
francs-tireurs? Really? You want to take an antiquated WW2 term and use it in a modern discussion? Thats a stretch to say the least. The punishment for a guerilla fighter from who exactly? NATO? Poland? France? It is not even applicable in this discussion.

If September 12 is a weak example, which is the only example of Article 5 being activated in history, then you need to find a safer option. I hope no other country has to experience a September 11 type of attack, you have no idea what it was like to watch and live through it. Your grandparents might know something, but Poland has not been attacked now in more than 80 years. Imagine Warsaw being lit up by Russia and it taking a month or more for NATO and primarily the US to respond. Its a terrible thought.

As for record checks, all that is about to become instant with the new ETIAS program. I have gone through the process myself twice in the last five years. I understand the complications of cross border checks.

I don't see where the application of rigid safety laws would impact upon that one bit. The other examples you gave are in fact an argument for maintaining Polish safety laws ie no hand guns no automatic/semi automatic weapons and no adaptors.

I knew a man from the bar nicknamed Pidgin who was shot on two, possibly three separate occasions so naturally he was re-nicknamed Clay. He could have been armed to the teeth and it would have made no difference.

Only because most people aren't interested in in acquiring guns.... if they were then whatever the law said would be irrelevant.

Culture trumps laws every time... this case could come straight from the US (a bunch of shots and random victims is a calling card of party shootings which are specialty of US Blacks and Latinos.... and the shots here took place at service for a couple of women from.... Colombia - an extremely violent society, bring in Colombians and the violence will follow them....).

twitter.com/markwhiteTV/status/1614340181674319872

Since it is not allowed by the Polish government to be put up for a Democratic popular vote I guess we will never know will we.

Tell me you don't understand Poland without writing "I don't understand Poland"......

That's what we have police for. I doubt it can get any worse than in the 90's.


But we do know - I gave you a link to recent poll results (the poll was commissioned by a conservative newspaper) according to which 70% of Poles don't want the gun laws in Poland to change.

Here's the link in case you missed it:

wiadomosci.onet.pl/kraj/sprawdzili-czy-polacy-chca-dostepu-do-broni-wyniki-badania-zaskakuja/g95yg4l


23%, not 30%. There's no society where 100% of people agree on everything, but we live in a democracy and laws are usually made according to what majority wants. And 70% is a big majority.

Why don't you care about what majority of people in Poland want? Why do you guys try to impose your mentality on Poles? There's a different reality in Poland than in the US. Our laws reflect that. Poland isn't the US. It isn't Switzerland either...

How many times has this happened in America ?
It's a first in my lifetime as far as I know.
Maybe instead of teaching six year olds how to have sex the teachers should be teaching them about gun safety.
That's how old I was when my grandfather taught me about gun safety and to shoot one.
I never pointed a gun at or shot anyone in the U.S. yet and I am almost 50 years old. :-)

@Paulina
Why dont you care what some people in Poland want? Why ignore any percentage of the people's wants? 23% is still a few million people, but if only 70% do not want change, then potentially 30% could. I thanked you for that poll, but you didn't read my post.

Because it is in contradiction to what 70% wants?
You can't please both groups.