Polish citizenship by petition to the president of Poland?

After more thought, my opinion is that this was likely an arranged marriage, so the marriage records are where she arrived in the U.S. from Europe, i.e, New York or Baltimore. If the groom came for his bride after she cleared the arrival hall, he was required to marry her on the spot if none of her relatives came to meet her. This was the rule to prevent human trafficking as its now known. Look for a marriage record there. If you don't have them, look for the passenger manifest in the arrival records. Those should list each passenger's place of origin, with whom they traveled, and the name of the person (frequently a relative) they came to visit in the U.S. You can also look in the WWI draft registration records for your great-grandfather. If you can't find the marriage record itself (you will need an exemplary copy from a court), then you need to make an argument that your grandmother is a citizen regardless if she was born legitimate or illegitimate, which means proving it through each parent.


I am glad to be of service. Ignore the trolls who have a different agenda.

Hi, I just came across this thread and have seen that you seem really knowledgeable on this subject, so I'm wondering if you'd be able to help me find out if I qualify for Polish citizenship based on ancestry.

My great grandfather was born in 1871 in Poznań, in 1895 he married my great grandmother in Poznań. They immigrated to the US in 1897 and my grandfather was born in the US in 1915. My great grand father never served in the US army and I dont believe he served in the polish army before migrating. My grandfather was drafted into the US army during WW2.

My father was born in 1961 in the US.
I've found the US census records for the 1930's and under the "naturalized" portion it looks like my great grandfather wrote "n/a" dont know if that's helpful.

Thanks in advance!

Yes. The trick will be getting the records of your great-grandfather's birth and marriage from the national archives in Warsaw. Then you will have the pleasure of seeing how the bureaucrats handle these cases.

I may take the suggestion of someone else and set up a blog on wordpress or something to help people with these issues. This forum is of limited usefulness for several reasons.

You absolutely should.

Update on my end: I spoke with the law firm and they told me that the marriage certificate was the holdup with my great-grandparents. Doing some research, I found out that there are local archives in NJ where my great grandfather lived until the next census - it's possible that they got married in his hometown. I asked about whether or not the marriage certificate would change anything about my application, and this is the response I received.

The interpretation of the citizenship legislation by Polish authorities in regards to some documents has relaxed somewhat. The marriage certificate would not be an obstacle as Esther is clearly the mother of Sylvia as stated on Sylvia's birth certificate.

The technicality that the Polish authorities have become a lot more stringent on, is the "jus soli" nationality rules in US. In the past we have argued in some cases that the attainment of the US citizenship has not occurred by choice. Unfortunately, a Polish Court of Law ruling has now closed that option. In your case, according to that ruling, Sylvia has lost her Polish citizenship when she turned 18 in 1935 as she has become an adult US citizen and no longer protected by her mother.

My question is, what if I could prove that William was born in the K.o.P. like you and I discussed?

If that report of the court ruling is true, Tusk's judges revoked the citizenship of everyone born in the U.S. contrary to the law of Second Republic. So then, everyone born in the U.S. lost citizenship retroactively under Tusk's new law. The citizenship of the foreign born has become a political football. Luckily, many of the old commie judges have recently been retired, and new ones will soon be appointed.

Disgusting and a disgrace.

Except it isn't true. The courts in the time of Tusk were independent, no matter how much Americans like "Pan" want Polish citizenship without documenting their claim.

If it's true, then it could be something to write to the president about, but it would likely require a concerted effort.

So I've been in contact with the national archives in Warsaw and the first email reply I received said

"Dear Sir, To start genealogical research You should know at last:
- the name or the version of the name of the ancestor;
- the date of the fact (birth, marriage or death);
- the name of the place, when it happened (parish or community, with the administrative location or unit)
- and the denomination The above mentioned information let the archivist to help You.
Therefore we ask you to send us your updated request once more.
Best regards, Sekretariat"

After replying to that with the info they sent me this

"Dear Sir,
Central Archives of Historical Records in Warsaw would like to inform you, that our archive keeps above all historical records of the central authorities: Crown Archives an Royal chancery registers (from 13th till 18th century) are kept along with the registers of the local tribunals for nobles (from 15th till 18th century) and records of public authorities, offices and institutions from the period of Partitions (1795-1918). We have also public registers only from the four former, before World War II, provinces (województwa) of Eastern Poland - lwowskie, stanisławowskie, tarnopolskie, wołyńskie (today in Ukraine), usually older than 100 years.

So we are not able to help you, but we forwarded your case to the State Archives in Bydgoszcz (mail: dz.info@archiwum.bydgoszcz.pl )."

They sent an email to that address with the info and a copy of it to me. So I guess I'm just waiting for the Bydgoszcz archives to get back to me. Is there anybody else I should contact in the mean time? I have been able to find an index for my great grandfather's and my great great grandfather's and all the way up to my greatx3 grandfathers marriage records on Poznań project but I'm not really understanding where they're located or how I can obtain them any help with that would be amazing.

Instead of dealing with the archive in Warsaw, why don't you contact the State Archive in Poznan or Bydgoszcz directly? That's where the documents should be. Or even better: search for his marriage record for free on poznan-project.psnc.pl


How could he? There was no Polish army in 1897.

Sorry, just saw that you already checked the Poznan Project. To find the location of the documents, you have to click on the "Original record" link to the right of the record. A window will pop up with the information you're looking for.

lol my bad, let me revise, I'm fairly sure he never served in the German Empire's army.

Alright so I've got the records up on Poznań project, one from a parish and the other is a civil registry. imgur.com/a/DfGi25t

The part I'm a bit confused about is the parish, it says "the records are held at the respective parish" which I would assume is the Brzyskorzystew Parish of Saint Catherine of Alexandria, however when I click on the Brzyskorzystew link it says

"Brzyskorzystew
(Znin) 5254 1739 BY Birkenfelde
Roman Catholic parish 1415 souls (in 1888) Includes: Brzyskorzystew, Brzyskorzystewko, Górki Dąbskie, Górki Zagajne, Koraszewko, Marienwalde (Wyręba), Obrona Leśna, Pałuczanka, Pawłowo (Paulsdorf), Zielony Gaj Archdiocesan Archive in Gniezno B 1839-1947 M 1844-1939 1945-1960 D 1832 1848-1939 1945-1960 Local Roman Catholic Parish B 1839- M 1844-

D 1832 1848- LDS microfilms B 1839-1947 2272054 #3-6 M 1844-1939 1945-1960 2286823 #1-2 D 1832 1848-1939 1945-1960 2286823 #3-4
"
So does it mean it could be at any of the parishes listed or is it just listing all the parishes in the district? Sorry if it's a stupid question but I'm unsure.

If its stored in the national archives in Bydgoszcz should I still look into the parish or would it just be the same record transcribed?

It gives you the number of the microfilms. Why don't you go to an LDS Family History Center near you and order the relevant films or microfiches? Costs only a handful of bucks and you can make copies once the films arrive at the center.

Since the records are needed to gain the rights of citizenship as the descendant of Plish citizens, they need to come from the archives with the proper stamp. It is clear that they exist, but the game is where to find them. Nothing in this process is easy.

So as I understand, since that my great grand father never served in the military in Poland or any where. I might be eligible?

Yes, but you need to get the documents from the archives, and it can be quite expensive. Consider hiring a genealogist to get what you need to document the claim, and then look for a competent lawyer to file the petition for citizenship.

I have a good lawyer. My wife's cousin is adwokat in Turin Poland. Any recommendations on a genealogist?

Not really. Polish state archives are actually quite reasonably priced provided that you give them enough details and don't let them search for you through the records. It's the Civil Registration offices that rip you off big time. Despite: many records are already online for free.


That I don't know.

archiwa.gov.pl/pl is the right place?

Where did your ancestors live? If you just want to look up some old documents without getting an official stamp, try:

szukajwarchiwach.pl

Use Polish place names!

I want to find official records but am happy to just look at them for now.
They came from all over Poland.
GG-Father came from Rutkowskie near Wizna, near Lomza.

Those are scans of the originals.

Not having too much luck so far. :-(

@PanTK The archives in Bydgoszcz have sent me a scan of the marriage record which is in German, which I can thankfully read and I've sent an email to the parish where the birth record is kept so I guess I'm just waiting on that, are there any other documents that I should try to acquire? Thank you so much for the help so far.

Hey!
I found this thread and it seems that you are very well informed about polish citizenship.

My great grandfather was born in 1897 around Zamość.
When he was 14 years old, he immigrated to Brazil with his parents and siblings(in 1911). I have his parents' birth and marriage records. They all came from Zamość area.

In 1926 g-grandfather married in Brazil.
In 1937 my grandfather was born in Brazil. He acquired brazilian citizenship because of jus soli.
In 1963 my father was born. Married my mother in 1987.

The ancestors(both g-grandfather and gg-grandfather) never naturalized as brazilian citizens nor served brazilian army.
I have Birth/Baptism/Marriage certificates from 'Polish' ancestors.

I don't have a document to prove ties to Poland in 1918 or afterwards.

Some lawyers told me I don't have right to the citizenship, others said otherwise.

I was told that if I am able to prove that family members stood in Poland in 1918 or after, I can be eligible.
I'm sure GG-grandfather siblings didn't leave Poland.

Any thoughts?

It is a long and difficult process as the Third Republic enforces neither the letter of the law of the Second, nor its spirit. Ultimately, it becomes a legal issue due to Tusk's government having created ex post facto presumptions that those living abroad somehow must have lost their citizenship rights because they did not recognize the Third Republic as the legitimate government of Poland. These presumptions likely violate several articles in the present Constitution of Poland since they discriminate against tens of thousands, and potentially millions, in Polonia. Another forum has been created for those prejudiced to share their experiences. See above.

Well from a purely legal point of view it was legitimate since every other country recognized it as such (as did international bodies such as the UN) and the current government is seen as a continuation of the country formed in 1944 rather than some completely new entity (or a continuation of the interwar republic).

Notice I'm not talking about morals or ethics (since the governments from 1944 to 1989 were generally terrible in all sorts of ways) but purely legal.

If your argument for citizenship is based on legal grounds you need to understand and follow the legal system in place (and not the one you wish was in place)

The legal issues with Tusk's ex post facto presumptions of loss of citizenship conflict with Poland's present constitution. Citizenship cannot be lost this way under the constitution, nor can people living abroad be discriminated against in such a way for political beliefs. Poland now has a reformed judiciary that will decide these issues.

Hey I wonder if you're still active in here. Anyways my great grandfather was born in Lodz in 1896 and left for Germany I'd say between 1916-1918. He married my German great grandmother and my grandma was born 1926. They were all registered in Germany as Polish citizens. Years later they were then stateless and I found a letter saying they were because my great grandfather didn't chose Poland (ie. Polish citizenship) based on Article VI of the Treaty of Riga which you mentioned earlier. I think most likely he didn't know he had to chose a citizenship? Because I find it hard to believe he'd want his family to be stateless. Either way I don't think I'd be able to get Polish citizenship because my mom was born before 1951 and my grandma married earlier so if she had Polish citizenship would have lost it anyways. Do you think i may have a chance writing to the President? I've seen it recommended in situations like mine but not sure.

If your great-grandfather had been born in Lodz in 1896 and had acquired no other citizenship by the time of the 1920 Citizenship Law, then he should have been recognized as a Polish citizen thereby. It sounds strange that he was stateless if he had not acquired another citizenship. When was the letter to which you refer? Possibly he had chosen Russian/Soviet citizenship then renounced it? If the matter was already decided , then writing to the President is your only option for citizenship absent a three year residency in Poland.