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Verbal nouns and past-tense adjectives from imperfective & perfective verbs..when to use which aspect?


OP ForumUser
6 Mar 2020 #31
@Lyzko
Gerund are nouns derived from infinitives, indicating specifically the process of those infinitives (at least according to the rules of English grammar), and therefore "Widzenie" and "Zobaczenie" are the Polish equivalents of gerunds. "Widząc" and "Zobaczywszy" are adverbs (not nouns, therefore not gerunds) derived from infinitives
Lyzko 25 | 7,139
6 Mar 2020 #32
Thanks, ForumUser!
I see now that the analogy of mine in this instance was false.
OP ForumUser
7 Mar 2020 #33
@Lyzko
OK no prob. Adverbials derived from infinitives basically explain how something is/was/will be done, hence describing a verb...more specifically, describing an immediately preceding phrase in the Polish sentence format of "Subject + Participle/Verb Tense + Object (optional, depending on phrase) ending with comma + imperfective adverbial" (at least most of the demonstrative Polish sentences I've seen use that same sentence format with mostly imperfective adverbials). If I'm not incorrect, then the adverbials of the infinitive "to see" basically means "(by way of/when/while) Seeing" = imperfective "Widząc" and "(after already) Seeing" = perfective "Zobaczywszy". I'm not 100% sure if adverbials derived from infinitives can be used in first-word position in Polish sentences. Shown below are a few demonstration sentences beginning with perfective "Poznać":

Imperfective "Widząc"--->"Poznałem Adama, widząc jego/swoje zdjęcie" = "I recognized Adam (by way of, when, while) seeing his photo"
Imperfective "Widząc" (unsure if proper grammar)--->"Widząc jego/swoje zdjęcie, poznałem Adama" = "(By way of, When, While) Seeing his photo, I recognized Adam"

Perfective "Zobaczywszy"--->"Poznałem Adama, zobaczywszy jego/swoje zdjęcie" = "I recognized Adam (after already) seeing his photo"
Perfective "Zobaczywszy" (unsure if proper grammar)--->"Zobaczywszy jego/swoje zdjęcie, poznałem Adama" = "(After already) Seeing his photo, I recognized Adam"
Lyzko 25 | 7,139
7 Mar 2020 #34
Interesting that you mention this since I teach ESL, at the moment, to a rather large group of Polish exchange students, who, though considered
advanced, often make correspondingly similar errors in English:-)

Temporarily thrown off by adjectival phrases such as "...polskomowiacy = [a, the] Polish speaking man, which is technically not a gerund and therefore
not at all germain to the current topic thread.
OP ForumUser
7 Mar 2020 #35
@Lyzko

Temporarily thrown off by adjectival phrases such as "...polskomowiacy = [a, the] Polish speaking man, which is technically not a gerund

Yup -ący (masculine singular and plural virile), -ąca (feminine singular), -ące (neuter singular and plural nonvirile) etc are adjectivals derived only from only imperfective infinitives, hence there's only "Widzący", "Widząca", "Widzące" etc., and no such thing as "Zobaczący", "Zobacząca", "Zobaczące" etc...just like no such thing as adverbial "Widziawszy", although I think the imperfective-only infinitive "Być" is the only imperfective infinitive I've ever seen that has both forms of adverbials "Będąc" (imperfective) and "Bywszy" (perfective). I've seen only "Będąc" used mostly in demonstration sentences, and I've never seen "Bywszy" used. Unlike the adverbials I demonstrated in my previous postings, the adjectivals are gendered and have grammatical cases/declensions, and if immediately preceded by "Subject + Participle/Verb Tense + Object (if object is even applicable, depending on sentence)", this time the adjectivals aren't immediately preceded by a comma. Shown below are demonstration sentences of adverbial "Będąc" and adjectival "Będąc + Adjectival Declension Suffix (depending on gender and grammatical case/declension)", using "to see" imperfective "Widzieć" and perfective "Zobaczyć" (As I previously mentioned, I'm not sure if it's proper grammar to use infinitive-derived adverbials/adjectivals in first-word positions in Polish sentences, and so this time I just omitted those sentences altogether):

"Widzę Adama, będąc jego/swoim pracownikiem"---> "I see Adam (by way of, when, while) being his (male) employee"
"Widzę Adama, będąc jego/swoją pracownicą/pracowniczką"---> "I see Adam (by way of, when, while) being his (female) employee"
"Zobaczyłem Adama, będąc jego/swoim pracownikiem"---> "I saw Adam (by way of, when, while) being his (male) employee"
"Zobaczyłem Adama, bywszy jego/swoim pracownikiem"---> "I saw Adam (after already) being his (male) employee"

"Widzę Adama będącego pracownikiem"--->"I see Adam (who is) being an employee"
"Zobaczyłem Adama będącego pracownikiem"---> "I (male) saw Adam (who is) being an employee"

"Widzę Teresę, będąc jej/swoim pracownikiem"---> "I see Teresa (by way of, when, while) being her (male) employee"
"Widzę Teresę, będąc jej/swoją pracownicą/pracowniczką---> "I see Teresa (by way of, when, while) being her (female) employee"
"Zobaczyłem Teresę, będąc jej/swoim pracownikiem"---> "I saw Teresa (by way of, when, while) being her (male) employee"
"Zobaczyłem Teresę, bywszy jej/swoim pracownikiem"---> "I saw Teresa (after already) being her (male) employee"

"Widzę Teresę będącą pracownicą/pracowniczką"--->"I see Teresa (who is) being an employee"
"Zobaczyłem Teresę będącą pracownicą/pracowniczką"---> "I (male) saw Teresa (who is) being an employee"

"Nie zobaczyłem Teresy będącej pracownicą/pracowniczką"---> "I (male) didn't see Teresa (who is) being an employee"
Lyzko 25 | 7,139
7 Mar 2020 #36
As you've obviously noticed by now, Polish is much more grammatically precise than English, more exact as well in her lexic function, compare
for example English "to see"/"look" vs. Polish "widzic", "zobaczyc", "ogladac", "patrzyc", "spojrzec"...

I SAW a movie. = Ogladalem film.
I SAW my friend in front of his flat. = Widzialem mojejo przyjacielu przed swoim mieszkaniem.
I've already SEEN the menu. = Juz zobaczylem menu.
Hey, LOOK there! = Hej, patrz tu!
I briefly SAW him standing at the corner. = Spojrzylem go stajacy na rogu.

Certainly English has perhaps even a richer lexic of synonyms, my point being though that English is to an extent relatively more flexible
in her choice, whereas in Polish, "Widzialem film" might sound to a Polish native speaker as if somebody was able to use their eyes to

experience the film (as opposed to another part of the body). Obviously, a film is meant to be seen first and foremost. And it an English

speaker says/writes, "Ogladalem mojego przyjacielu....", a Pole might think that the person was in a movie in which they were moving
as though in a succession of images:-)
pawian 170 | 11,398
7 Mar 2020 #37
As you've obviously noticed by now, Polish is much more grammatically precise than English,

Of course not, it is quite the opposite.

Check this Polish sentence. A single one. How many English sentences can you create with the same meaning?

Ja maluję mieszkanie.
OP ForumUser
7 Mar 2020 #38
@pawian

Ja maluję mieszkanie

"I paint/varnish apartment/flat" (either "I coat apartment/flat with paint/varnish" and/or "I draw/paint apartment/flat onto paper/canvas"), "I apply cosmetics/makeup onto apartment/flat"
pawian 170 | 11,398
7 Mar 2020 #39
I am sorry, I meant different tenses, not vocabulary. Let`s stick to paint as the most appropriate in this context.
OP ForumUser
7 Mar 2020 #40
@pawian
I paint/I'm painting a/an/the apartment/flat
pawian 170 | 11,398
7 Mar 2020 #41
Also: I have been painting the flat. :)

3 English sentences vs one Polish. Which language is more precise?
OP ForumUser
7 Mar 2020 #42
Oh I agree, English definitely more precise, their infinitives generally having 3 variations of present tense for the same infinitive "To paint" ("I paint...", "I'm painting...", and "I do paint...") vs. Polish having only one present tense, with different variations of the same infinitive (mostly by adding different prefixes onto "malować"...luckily most prefixes in general don't change conjugation patterns, although many prefixes do change infinitives from imperfectives into perfectives)
kaprys 3 | 2,374
7 Mar 2020 #43
Is 'polskomówiący' a word in Polish?

I saw a film - Widziałem film.
I saw a friend in front of his flat - widziałem /zobaczylem przyjaciela przed jego mieszkaniem.
I've seen the menu - już widziałem menu.
I saw him standing at the corner -Widziałem go stojącego na rogu.

Zobaczący/a etc sound odd. Do they exist?

Bywszy sounds kind of literary or archaic.
OP ForumUser
7 Mar 2020 #44
Zobaczący/a etc sound odd. Do they exist?

Bywszy sounds kind of literary or archaic.

I think there's only "Widzący", "Widząca", "Widzące" etc., and no such thing as "Zobaczący", "Zobacząca", "Zobaczące" etc. And I think there's only "Zobaczywszy" and no such thing as "Widziawszy". I've never seen "Bywszy" in a sentence, but the Polish-to-English websites I've viewed list it as "Anterior Adverbial Participle of Być" and they list "Będąc" as "Contemporary Adverbial Participle of Być"
OP ForumUser
7 Mar 2020 #45
@ForumUser
No such thing as "Zobacząc" either
Lyzko 25 | 7,139
8 Mar 2020 #46
@Paw, ForumUser,

I understand both your examples, yet I'm not entirely convinced. However, "Maluje mieszkanie." = I'm painting my apartment" only reveals imprecision in that the lack of an article in the sentence is vague and might mean "my", "an" or "the" apartment in question here. To me as a native English speaker, there's no misunderstanding nor even the slightest hesitation translating the sentence!

On the other hand, a language like German definitely has both Polish and English beat, so to speak, in terms of its directional as well as resultative aka perfective specificity.

Maluje mieszkanie = Ich male meine Wohung vs. Maluje sciane = Ich male die Wand AN, whereby the latter specifies the painting of a surface, not
simply an apartment/house in general, thereby requiring the prefixed verb "anmalen".

Polish too of course has numerous verbal prefixes:-)
mafketis 23 | 8,410
8 Mar 2020 #47
there's only "Zobaczywszy"

the -wszy forms (only with perfective verbs) are just about non-existent in spontaneous everyday usage, it's mostly found in more formal writing.

I've never seen "Bywszy"

Not by itself, but some derived forms can be spotted now and again...

być itself has both perfective and imperfective qualities (the only such verb in Polish AFAIK)
Ziemowit 13 | 4,088
8 Mar 2020 #48
some derived forms can be spotted now and again...

Indeed, forms like: przebywszy (tę odległość), zdobywszy (szczyt), dobywszy (szpady), odbywszy (karę wiezienia).


Home / Language / Verbal nouns and past-tense adjectives from imperfective & perfective verbs..when to use which aspect?
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