The usage and future of the special Polish letters: ą, ć, ę, ł, ń, ó, ś, ż, ź (Polish language)

Sorry, z_darius: I will not have you as the Polish teacher. Move to Poland, start speaking among the Poles. Then I may listen to you.

The sound isn't stressed so you can't tell if it's 'g' or 'k'. 'K' in "tak' sounds a lot harder, but you shouldn't pronounce it as 'g' either.

Absolutely agree with you, Koala.

I wasn't applying.


No need. Just look for udzwiecznienie wsteczne. Some Polish sources refer to it as upodobnienie wsteczne.
Polish grammar for grade 7 in Polish primary schools (1970's) will do.

z_darius, you cannot learn the living language from books. Take my word on that.

1970? I was 9 then. 41 years have passed since and I speak Polish every day. Sometimes I even write song lyrics.

pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ud%C5%BAwi%C4%99cznienieurl]

pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upodobnienia_fonetyczne


You do understand irony, don't you?

Do you pronounce the same sound in 'tygrys' and 'także'?

I don't need to take anybody's word about Polish which is my native language.
Born, raised and educated in Poland. Wydzial Filologiczny (among others) Uniwersytetu Wroclawskiego until 1987.

You think you hear 'k' but you don't. You expect it because of the spelling. Much like in some English varieties people swear they hear "r" in "car" even though there is no "r" at all.

Voiceless 'k' in Polish is hard to impossible before voiced 'ż', or the other way around. Something has to give. Either 'ż' will be devoiced because of 'k', or 'will be sonorized because of 'ż'.

If you lick a little bit of linguistics you'll understand.
Hence Lyzko's natural pronunciation. It's a classical example or reverse sonorization.


Oh well :)
There haven't been any great consonant shifts in Polish in the last... lemme think... from memory... 500+ years?

z_darius: From the moment you left Poland (and I got my MSc at the Warsaw Technical University), 24 years have passed, and I have got two daughters, both born in Warsaw.

Your Polish dries out. Could you tell me the meaning of the word "stylówa"? The current meaning of the phrase "Namówiłeś mnie" and the origin of that? How would you call informal meeting/fight of supporters of two different football teams in a forest? You won't find it in the books.

Stylówa - another Varsovian fugly creation not used in the greener lands of western Poland.
Has "namówiłeś mnie" shifted its meaning recently? It's always been "you convinced me to (...)"
That word is more often use in context of online games. :P

Far cry from linguistic qualifications, isn't it?


It's as good as ever. I've been using it daily.


No idea.
Still, what Lyzko did is definitely ubezdzwiecznienie wsteczne anf the "g" is absolutely correct and natural in Polish.
Odwiedz swoje dawne liceum or podstwowke and ask for polonistke.
Ask her.
Let us know.

Koala - the language undergoes evolution. This is not that Warsaw speaks that way. The Polish Internet speaks that way and it becomes nation-wide. You would be surprised how many new words I learned from Fjasz and Yffan, both from Świebodzin ;-) Especially form Yffan who once was my drummer in a music competition.

Stylówa - outfit, garment. This is not Warsaw word, the word is common amongst the followers of "electro" music.
"Namówiłeś mnie" really means "you convinced me" but this phrase has a special meaning:
-- Napiłbym się piwa...
-- Namówiłeś mnie.

The fans of Legia Warszawa and Lech Poznań agree to a meeting in a forest called "ustawka".
I really wanted z_darius to answer that. You live in Poland, Koala.

I did and I said I had no idea. I don't pretend I know what I don't know.
But I am positive about 'g' before 'ż'. No question about it, whether I know the latest in kids talk or not.
There were were no changes in Polish phonology since I left Poland.

I'll buy you a beer if you know how we call 'ziarna słonecznika' in Świebodzin and surroundings if you answer without googling. :P


That's a humorous way to say "I'm in", but frankly such phrases to be made up on the fly and do not have permanent meaning.


Yes, but I think it is more often used in terms of online games, I'm doing ustawki with my friends to play Left 4 Dead :P


We don't say it's 'k', we say it's neither 'g' nor 'k'. Unless you pronounce the same sound in 'tygrys' and 'także'

I lost the beer! Yffan told me that... and I forgot how it went ;-)

Some of the anglos on this forum have been complaining abut the level of education in Poland lately.
Fukc, it's worse than I thought.

A quote for you:
także [wym. tagże]. Nie ma takiego wypadku, żeby głoska poprzedzająca dźwięczna oddziaływała na następną bezdźwięczną, ponieważ wszystkie upodobnienia pod względem dźwięczności mają charakter wsteczny.

Source: poradniajezykowa.us.edu.pl/baza_archiwum.php?POZYCJA=1700&AKCJA=&TEMAT=Wszystkie&NZP=&WYRAZ=

Darius, what are you drinking or smoking? Tell me the phone number to your dealer, PLEASE!
Do you realize we are equal age and what differs us is that I stayed in Poland?
PLEASE, do not teach Poles speak Polish.
I can even kneel if you like.

And yet you have no clue what you are talking about. How sad.

I quoted a Polish University as the source. To be precise, the source is The Institute of The Polish Language in that university. Show me a reputable source proving that I'm wrong and I'll yield.

So far you cited your own credentials which are a degree from a technical university and two daughters. I'll ask for help when I need to calculate some kind of formula or when I need to ask about the latest fashion among Polish girls. As for linguistic advice on Polish you won't be a consideration.

z_darius, you are on wrong path. The language is not built and developed by linguists. Linguists describe the language. If you were right, English would not move an inch from Shakespeare times. My credit is I live in Poland and every day contribute to the development of Polish. Your Polish is stale.

Got it?

Cry me a river. I pronounce a sound that's between 'k' and 'g', at least not the same 'g' like in words 'pogoda' or 'tygrys', but the same sound like in 'pogrzeb'. No university professor quote will convince me otherwise.


Siemki :)

And as a linguist this is exactly what I did - I described it to you. Remember about it once a week, let's say every "wtorek" (pronounced "ftorek") which is another example of upodobnienie wsteczne.

Still waiting for that source.

Please, stop making yourself sound absolutely ridiculous.
You are talking through your hat here. You haven't the foggiest about phonetics and / or phonology.


tygrys: pl.wiktionary.org/wiki/tygrys

także: pl.wiktionary.org/wiki/tak%C5%BCe

Check for yourself.

Magdalena, you do not live in Poland since 1992, either.
Why do you people insist you could teach the living Polish? By book?
Wolne żarty.
Just sing the "Molowo" better than Grom did.


Koala, I can only promise not to forget it this time ;)

I didn't ask wiktionary, I asked you.

And pray, how do you know that, dear sir? You really are a fountain of information. I thought I knew my own biography, at least. Let me put you right - I moved out of Warsaw in 1992. Unless to you, only Warsaw is Poland. ;->


We are both linguists by education. As you very rightly stated earlier, linguists describe the language. Well, we are trying to describe it to you, but you seem deaf and blind to the simplest facts.


And I am referring you to phonetic transcription, as used by linguists the world over. Don't just take my word for it. Check it for yourself.

No, not "by book" :)

Polish phonology has not changed in the last 30 years, except for continuing erosion of dark "L" (kresowe £). Ceratainly not in regards to voicing of consonants. Prove me wrong.

Next thing you know you will be insisting that "wtorek" is pronounced with "w", not "f".

That's why I encouraged you to visit a local teacher of Polish, in Poland. Ask a competent person (that's not you or Koala), living in Poland about the living "g" in the word in question.

You may tell us about it as soon as you get the answer.


That is rather a possibility.
In Warsaw they do think they are the real Poland and they also think that their funny dialect (albeit dying out) is th Polish to speak :)

But there is also a possibility they are what the real people of Warsaw call "wsiury".

You can beat the dead horse as much as you like. You do not live in Poland, z_darius. Koala and I do. You have no more any influence on the spoken Polish language. We may disagree on Tusk or other matters with Koala, but it is Koala and me who form the language, not you or Magdalena. Come back, live with us, breathe the same air, that would change the whole thing.

How much dumber can you get?
Who says I have any influence on the Polish language?
I describe it, as any descriptive linguist would do.


How can you form a language if you can't even hear what people say?
You form nothing. You just parrot kids talk and take pride in the fact.

Linguists describe the past. Return to your dinosaurs, z_darius.

Or, we could have an interesting chat on Old English.

"G" might be used as a transcription because a sign has to be used and it's probably the closest one. However, my larynx and tongue do not move in the same way when I say "także" and "tygrys/pogoda" when k/g and g are pronounced. I also hear the subtle difference in sound, that's all there's to it.

I have to add, scientists in other branches of science (non-linguists) are a lot more humble and I never heard anyone saying "lol you have no credentials, Polish education sucks yaddayadda" as you two here are doing.