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Meaning of "w tern" in Polish


mhurwicz 8 | 16
16 Dec 2018  #1
I don't know much Polish and am using Google Translate to try to get a general sense of an article about economics, written by Tadeusz Brzeski in 1936 ("O METODZIE W EKONOMJI")

repozytorium.amu.edu.pl/bitstream/10593/16857/1/2-014%20DR.%20TADEUSZ%20BRZESKI%20RPEiS%2016%282%29%2C%201936.pdf

I have run across the phrase "w tern" twice and have become curious about what it means. In one case, Google Translate says "in tern" which isn't too helpful! In the other case, I'm not sure which part of the translation corresponds to "w tern"! I've Googled it and found numerous uses, but can't find any consistent meaning that fits all of them. Here are the two uses in the article I'm reading, along with the translation from Google Translate:

1)
w tern też dopatrywać się można uzasadnienia wypowiadanej niejednokrotnie zasady "zdro­wego rozsądku", jako kryterjum zgodności z rzeczywistością lub po­woływania się na "pospolite doświadczenie" (gemeine Erfahrung u Wiesera), jako na metodę badania.

in tern you can also see the justification of the rule of "common sense" repeatedly, as a criterion of compliance with reality or after invoking the "common experience" (gemeine Erfahrung at Wieser), as a method of research.

2)
Uważamy to za zasadnicze założenie me­todyczne, idąc w tern w głównych zarysach za wzorem ekonomii klasycznej;

We consider this to be a fundamental cultural assumption, going in the main outlines following the model of classical economics;
Nathans
16 Dec 2018  #2
"W tern" most likely derives from Russian and in Polish it basically means: "W tym" (so 'tern' = 'tym').
mafketis 19 | 6,853
16 Dec 2018  #3
My guess: It's a scanning error and the original was 'w tem' probably an outdated variant of 'w tym'

or it might be an older way of writing 'wtem' (suddenly, unexpectedly) which may have been written separately at the time... (or by that author)

In other news, why are you using such an odd source to learn Polish, at a glance there is some very old fashioned (no longer standard) stuff there "w ekonomji" (modern 'w ekonomii' or "nietylko" (instead of nie tylko) or 'innemi' (instead of modern innymi)

There's plenty of more up to date sources...
Ziemowit 12 | 3,304
16 Dec 2018  #4
the original was 'w tem' probably an outdated variant of 'w tym'

For sure it is an outdated variant, the same case in:

'innemi' (instead of modern innymi)

Lyzko 20 | 6,038
16 Dec 2018  #5
There are many such variants in Polish, mhurwicz:-)

swej instead of swojej
poszlem rather than standard correct poszedlem

etc.
Ziemowit 12 | 3,304
16 Dec 2018  #6
poszlem

This is a gramatically incorrect form which should not be used at all.
Lyzko 20 | 6,038
17 Dec 2018  #7
I know and I try to avoid any form of slang, certainly in writing:-)

Thanks though.
mafketis 19 | 6,853
17 Dec 2018  #8
I try to avoid any form of slang

It's not slang, it's a stable form that remains non-standard and unacceptable in formal usage, a very different case from the other examples.
OP mhurwicz 8 | 16
17 Dec 2018  #9
why are you using such an odd source to learn Polish

Although I am learning some Polish in the process, and very glad of it, my real goal in this case is to get a general understanding of the article for a writing project I'm working on.
Lyzko 20 | 6,038
17 Dec 2018  #10
Good point, Maf!

What sort of writing project are you working on presently, mhurwicz? I see you read German. Are your trying perhaps to translate a German article into Polish?
OP mhurwicz 8 | 16
17 Dec 2018  #11
What sort of writing project are you working on presently, mhurwicz?

I'm glad you asked! It gives me a chance to brag about my father, Leonid Hurwicz (leonidhurwicz.org), who won the Nobel Prize in economics in 2007. I am working on a book about his life. Tadeusz Brzeski was a professor at the University of Warsaw when my father was there (1934-38). So I was trying to understand this article to get some idea about Brzeski's approach to economics.

I see you read German.

A little. But I use Google Translate fearlessly in all languages!

However, the German that is included above is just copied from Brzeski's article into the English translation, so no facility with the German language was required!.
Lyzko 20 | 6,038
18 Dec 2018  #12
Many thanks for your prompt reply, mhurwicz!
Did you perchance already receive my private PF message I sent the other day? No rush to respond.
:-)
delphiandomine 83 | 17,531
18 Dec 2018  #13
"w ekonomji" (modern 'w ekonomii'

Maf, Ziemowit - do either of you have any idea when this j was dropped from words such as "armija"? I'm trying to narrow it down, and it seems that those spellings fell out of favour after the war, but I can't find anything conclusive.
Lyzko 20 | 6,038
18 Dec 2018  #14
"W armiji" is what I would opt for.
mafketis 19 | 6,853
18 Dec 2018  #15
it seems that those spellings fell out of favour after the war

I've heard, but I forget the details of when and where. I thing there was a big reform early in the interwar period (doing things like allowing popular forms like latami insteady of literary laty).

At one point there were competing standards (at least two, one in Warsaw? the other in Kraków?) and one reform was to harmonize them.

I wonder when tą żonę will be allowed in writing.
Dirk diggler 9 | 4,144
19 Dec 2018  #16
Lyzko w armiji isnt used its w armii. Its always been armia far as i can remember i.e. armia, z armii, w armii, etc.. never heard or seen armija, armiji etc. Also wojsko is used more frequently used than armia. Even sily zbrojne (armed forces) is more common now. Far as I know last time armia was officially used was the ak armia krajowa, druga armia wojskiego polskiego, etc.

I've seen 'w tern' in some books but never heard it used in speech. It seems like it's used similar to w tym.
mafketis 19 | 6,853
19 Dec 2018  #17
Lyzko w armiji isnt used

I prefer armja (and the old ekonomja) on analogy with racja, misja etc.

Many people pronounce Dania (the country) and dania (plural of danie) slightly differently and the spelling Danja shows that in writing...

I've read that at one time fotografie! (vocative of fotograf) and fotografie (plural of fotografia) were distinguished by some people but unlike the previous example I've never met anyone who does....

I also think there are now two się's in the language that behave differently syntactically but I'm kind of alone on that one...
Ziemowit 12 | 3,304
19 Dec 2018  #18
do either of you have any idea when this j was dropped from words such as "armija"?

I suppose you mean 'armja'. The spelling was changed in 1936 when it was decided that:
wyrazy typu Maria pisze się przez i, z wyjątkiem po c, s, z (np. Francja, pasja, diecezja)

Many people pronounce Dania (the country) and dania (plural of danie) slightly differently and the spelling Danja shows that in writing...

In fact, most people, if not all, make this difference in pronounciation. Formally, the spelling 'Danja' should still be kept, even if it is against the above rule, in my view.

I've seen 'w tern' in some books

You could never see 'w tern' [w t-e-r-n] in books, you could only read this as 'w tern' whereas in fact it was 'w tem' [w t-e-m].

there are now two się's in the language that behave differently syntactically

What exactly do you have in mind ?
Dirk diggler 9 | 4,144
19 Dec 2018  #19
You could never see 'w tern' [w t-e-r-n] in books, you could only read this as 'w tern' whereas in fact it was 'w tem' [w t-e-m].

Not true. I.E.

see 1st paragraph on 2nd page

....bardziej umacnialo w tern przekonaniu

kalinowski.weebly.com/uploads/4/9/1/6/4916495/ukrainskie_szkoly_powszechne_w_rejowcu_i_wereszczach_duzych_1939.pdf
Lyzko 20 | 6,038
19 Dec 2018  #20
Technically, Maf, Dirk's right, it's "armia" cf. "Armia Krajowa".
Ziemowit 12 | 3,304
19 Dec 2018  #21
umacnialo w tern przekonaniu

You are unable to detect a typo in a text, aren't you?
[There are lots of other typos in this text, btw.]
Lyzko 20 | 6,038
19 Dec 2018  #22
Ditto, I'm afraid! Have to go along with Ziemowit as a native Polish speaker on that one.
mafketis 19 | 6,853
19 Dec 2018  #23
a typo in a text

I think it's not a typo, but I think the text was scanned (and confusing m and r + n is a common problem in scanning, like distinguising t and f (or t and ł in Polish)
Lyzko 20 | 6,038
19 Dec 2018  #24
Sometimes screen text print is too small for me as well, even with glasses:-)
mafketis 19 | 6,853
19 Dec 2018  #25
there are now two się's in the language that behave differently syntactically

From memory from the time I first kind of thought of this... the first is się more or less as traditionally described and there's.... sie (never nasalized always a clitic) which always follows the verb. I was originally taught that unstressed się can't be the last word in a sentence unless there's literally no other place for it, but a few years ago in a translation setting Polish speakers were consistently producing sentences ending in this unstressed sie (with lots of places elsewhere in the sentence for it...)
Dirk diggler 9 | 4,144
19 Dec 2018  #26
@Ziemowit

Look I've never heard w tern used in polish speech, but i have seen it used in old books and clearly it's not a typo

I.e.
books.google.com/books?id=xWlbBAAAQBAJ&pg=PT122&lpg=PT122&dq=w+tern+w+tym&source=bl&ots=Be_XRhYXNi&sig=0R2pLa-EfsjKFQJ1FaCpnBPl_1s&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwj1ypuIvazfAhUbo4MKHYHtBugQ6AEwC3oECAUQAQ

Litwie dla defektu w tern miejscu kroniki naszej nie możemy ...

Another example

books.google.com/books?id=VPEKAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA82&lpg=PA82&dq=w+tern+w+tym&source=bl&ots=qMgzl94Aup&sig=Aw22RxwO4Cs-ZYzmUapyS3sa9lM&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwj1ypuIvazfAhUbo4MKHYHtBugQ6AEwEHoECAMQAQ

Przezierając ongi listy WKM. niektóre do siebie pisane, nalazłem w tern pisaniu WKMości,
mafketis 19 | 6,853
19 Dec 2018  #27
those look like tem's to me (the word search for those is visual not digital so rn and m can get confused...


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