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Too many English words in the Polish language!


Magdalena 3 | 1,837
17 Apr 2011 #211
Yes I know that they are still in use, but not where I am now

So what terminology do you use where you are now?
boletus 30 | 1,366
17 Apr 2011 #212
English. Mixed crews are not unusual here and many Polonia youths do not even speak proper day-to-day Polish. Typically there is very little formality on board of day cruisers, but when a command is issued the response must be automatic; there is no time for translation or explanation.
Magdalena 3 | 1,837
17 Apr 2011 #213
So basically you go in the direction that is so deplored by the person who opened this thread, amirite? ;-)
boletus 30 | 1,366
17 Apr 2011 #214
Absolutely not! But I'll take a bait!

Sailing terminology is just an exception to general rules. One cannot be any worse by replacing one loan word by another, especially when a situation demands it - as I described before.

I used to have plenty of objections to using technical English words in computer terminology; such as fajle, bajty, fajerłols -- and I still have. This is simply an aberration, in my opinion. But I am more relaxed now because I rarely read Polish technical papers, so such things do not affect me that much. But when I see such abuse, I still feel pain.

In writing - if I do not know a Polish equivalence of an English term I usually use the original term in quotation marks, and I do not attempt to decline or conjugate it. There is a marvellous mechanism in Polish that acts as an escape clause and is applicable to phrases like "na rzece Wisła", or "powieść Benois Dubois". This takes a little bit more time, but it does not look ugly at least. This technique would not be so easy to apply in speech, but fortunately I do not have to go through such hoops on daily basis.

I think that an operative expression that should be used in this thread is "mental laziness" - so much displayed by Polish technologists, media (including bloggers) and politicians. Add to it the everyday's posers ("developerów" but not "budowlańców", "menadżerów" but God forbid "zarządców", or "kierowników") and political language manipulators (I will not name anyone here, since this post is apolitical, but I have seen a plethora of dozens polonized English words in one document alone, which did not make any sense to me) and we have the ugly picture indeed.

I bet you that after taking any English word and appending some Polish ending to it you can easily find it in Google; meaning - some lazy fellow has already come with similar idea.

Let's see... How about "surwiwaliści"? Here you go: 144 results. "Surwiwaliści nie walczą jednak z rządem federalnym", Polityka. Polityka? One of the best Polish magazines?
Magdalena 3 | 1,837
17 Apr 2011 #215
("developerów" but not "budowlańców", "menadżerów" but God forbid "zarządców", or "kierowników")

The problem here is that "developer" is not "budowlaniec"; "menedżer" is not "zarządca" or "kierownik". Each of these words has a separate meaning.

But when I see such abuse, I still feel pain.

Aren't you taking things a mite too personally here? IMHO those computer-related words which could receive Polish names - already have. People have stopped saying e.g. "deletować" or "kancelować" ages ago. I can't imagine Polish equivalents of words like "megabyte" though - it's like insisting to have Polish words for "kilometre" or "litre".
rybnik 18 | 1,462
17 Apr 2011 #216
But when I see such abuse, I still feel pain.

Me too Boletus.
PennBoy 76 | 2,437
17 Apr 2011 #217
The problem here is that "developer" is not "budowlaniec"; "menedżer" is not "zarządca" or "kierownik". Each of these words has a separate meaning.

True but that's just those words. How about when they use coach instead or trener or trening instead of ćwiczenie many words already have a Polish word for it, they shouldn't be messing up our language.
Magdalena 3 | 1,837
17 Apr 2011 #218
coach instead or trener or trening instead of ćwiczenie

I would have thought coach = trener, but see:

karieramanagera.pl/edukacja_i_rozwoj/coaching/trener_nie_rowna_sie_coach

"Trening" is definitely not the same as "ćwiczenie."
boletus 30 | 1,366
17 Apr 2011 #219
I am sorry, Magdalena, but I can only agree with you on one point only:
"budowlaniec" indeed is not a "developer" - it is a builder. But the line between "developer" and "buider" is not that sharp since "development" translates to "rozwój, rozbudowa, postęp".

"Research and Development", R&D, "Badania i Rozwój". Hey, I use to be a "developer" for quite some time, so I should know what it means exactly. And I do not build houses, nor "zagospodarowuję tereny". I still dislike phrases like "konferencje deweloperów", etc. - this therm is ugly, pompous and funny, in my opinion.

But "manager" actually means both "kierownik" and "zarządca" - and before you ask me what dictionary I used, here is the pointer: translate.google.com.

Megabyte is fine. I was objecting to "megabajt".
"Deletować"? I never used this term in my last post. But since you mentioned it: 289 cases on google. "A ja bardzo proszę nie deletować"=> Last post: 3 Jul 2010.

So this was not "ages ago". Same goes for "kancelować".

Magdalena, the essence of what I said before is: some people are really mentally lazy. There are ways to express oneself in plain Polish.
Magdalena 3 | 1,837
17 Apr 2011 #220
Fun fact about the word "coach":

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_English_words_of_Hungarian_origin

But "manager" actually means both "kierownik" and "zarządca"

Yes, the English word "manager" can be translated as "zarządca, kierownik". Nevertheless, the Polish word "menedżer" means something different than either of those other Polish words. The meaning of the loanword =/= original English meaning.

I was objecting to "megabajt".

You do realise how difficult it would be to use "megabyte" in ordinary Polish texts? The spelling had to be adjusted for everyday use. Or do you think we should write "centimetre" instead of "centymetr"?

289 cases on google

I use Google a LOT in my work, and believe you me:

1) you can pretty much google anything and find it
2) 289 finds on Google is a pathetically small number.

Everyone I know use "usuwać" and "cofać" for delete, cancel.

There are ways to express oneself in plain Polish.

I would love to learn more about this "plain Polish" of yours ;-p
Linguistic Purism, anyone?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linguistic_purism
PennBoy 76 | 2,437
17 Apr 2011 #221
I would have thought coach = trener, but see:
"Trening" is definitely not the same as "ćwiczenie."

"trenerem nazywa sie osobe prowadzaca szkolenie " and usually it's the coach training his team in just about every sport.
Magdalena 3 | 1,837
17 Apr 2011 #222
Are we talking about the Polish or the English meaning of the word?
boletus 30 | 1,366
18 Apr 2011 #223
Magdalena

I would love to learn more about this "plain Polish" of yours

One day, hopefully. :-)

I am going out for a glass wine now, before we start real nitpicking.

BTW, nothing important: I was thinking about why do you use "cofać" for "cancel" and not "zanulować", "unieważnić", "skasować" and then I realized that this might be related to the PC keyboard layout - with "backspace" key (cofać) and "delete" key (usuwać).

But not all keyboards are like this: Apple computers have just "delete" key and this works fine in editing. In other words, there is no "cofać" key. Something to think about...
Ziemowit 13 | 4,204
18 Apr 2011 #224
The problem here is that "developer" is not "budowlaniec"; "menedżer" is not "zarządca" or "kierownik". Each of these words has a separate meaning.

Yes, the English word "manager" can be translated as "zarządca, kierownik". Nevertheless, the Polish word "menedżer" means something different than either of those other Polish words.

I just wonder what it is exactly which "means something different than either of the two Polish words: zarządca [I would use 'zarzadzający' here, however, for example: zarządzający projektem] or 'kierownik'.

In some professional environments in Poland people would use the word 'coach', in some other people would not. I happen to be in one of those latter environments [psychology/therapy], and I constantly hear 'trener' for people doing 'szkolenia' to others, while I never hear 'coach'. As a true fact, I only have a vague idea why people should say 'coach', and I basically think they do it in posh business environments just in order to get more money for things which are in reality worth much less than they charge.

As for the term 'developer', it jumps out everywhere you turn your head. In the times when the influence of capitalism and the English language and was not so great as now, people would just say 'firma budowlana' which is basically what a developer is. Every one had not even been thinking of another term to replace it with as everyone was happy with the term they were using.
Magdalena 3 | 1,837
18 Apr 2011 #225
I just wonder what it is exactly

"Menedżer" is something of an umbrella term - it's anyone with corporate decision-making powers, whereas both "kierownik" and "zarządca" have much more specific connotations. E.g. every "dyrektor" is by definition a "menedżer" as well; now try calling him / her a "kierownik" and watch their wrath unfold ;-)

they do it in posh business environments just in order to get more money for things which are in reality worth much less than they charge.

Exactly. Are you now beginning to understand why new words are coined or borrowed from other languages in the first place? The fact that a new word creates a new reality is what it's all about. Once the new reality or new need has been created, you cannot say that the word is not necessary! It doesn't matter if the new need is there first (like the need to name a new invention) or if the word helps us name something we never thought of giving a distinct name before (as in the case of the coach / trener split). If not enough people use "coach" though, the word will quietly disappear from use in a matter of years.

'firma budowlana' which is basically what a developer is.

People still say "firma budowlana" a lot in the proper context. "Deweloper" is not just any old "firma budowlana" - it's a large, powerful investor who employs the above-mentioned "firmy budowlane".

"cofać" for "cancel" and not "zanulować", "unieważnić", "skasować

"Anulować" and "cofać" are both "to cancel"

"Skasować" = "to delete"
FUZZYWICKETS 8 | 1,883
19 Apr 2011 #226
"groupies".......

i couldn't make this stuff up.

awful.
rybnik 18 | 1,462
20 Apr 2011 #227
on TVP just now: "mamy nadzieje, ze to bedzie jej najwiekszy comeback".....*shaking his head in disbelief*
z_darius 14 | 3,968
20 Apr 2011 #228
People still say "firma budowlana" a lot in the proper context. "Deweloper" is not just any old "firma budowlana" - it's a large, powerful investor who employs the above-mentioned "firmy budowlane".

so what's wring with inwestor budowlany?
inwestorbudowlany.pl

Just like rybnik, I keep shaking my head when I read the pretentious puke that passes for the Polish languae these days.
mafketis 24 | 8,939
20 Apr 2011 #229
One justification often given for using so many English words in Polish is that makes the language easier to learn. Hah! The meaning of most established English loans is changed so much that using the words in English (with the meanings Polish speakers think they have) will lead to confused and unsuccessful communication.

Deweloper, menedżer, leasing, playback, happening, showman etc are not used in English with the meanings they have in Polish.

The wise Polish learner of English will treat modern English loans into Polish with suspicion - assume they're false friends until proven otherwise....

Also, while a certain kind of Pole thinks that using lots of English words in Polish makes them sound sophisticate most native speakers of English are more liable to think they sound ridiculous.

When I hear someone on tv say "mamy dziesięciu riserczerów" I mentally classify them as a burak with delusions of grandeur.....
Ziemowit 13 | 4,204
20 Apr 2011 #230
on TVP just now: "mamy nadzieje, ze to bedzie jej najwiekszy comeback".....*shaking his head in disbelief*

Just like rybnik, I keep shaking my head when I read the pretentious puke that passes for the Polish languae these days.

It must be noted that quite a number of foreign words is used in the way which may be called in Polish as "użycie manierystyczne". The fact the they used a phrase like 'to będzie jej największy comeback' on Polish TV does not disturb in the slightest way an ordinary Polish speaker who, like me, has been living in Poland all his life, and all over this time has been very much against foreign words recklessly thrown into the language. A 'comeback' of someone is a very specific term for describing nothing more than a 'powrót na scenę znanego artysty lub wielkiej gwiazdy po dłuższej nieobecności w życiu kulturalnym'. There's nothing wrong with it, it just 'serves' as a particular dress in which dancers of cancan appear on the stage in the Moulin Rouge. No one uses it in everyday Polish, however, if they did, then they would not only sound pretentious, but extremely silly, indeed.

When I hear someone on tv say "mamy dziesięciu riserczerów" I mentally classify them as a burak with delusions of grandeur.....

Contrary to using 'comeback' in a strictly specific context, I find the above just as moronic as you have found it.
---------------------
'Iwestor budowlany or 'firma budująca' [not 'budowlana'] would be a perfect Polish eqivalent of 'developer' as it is used of today. It sounds a bit clumsy, in my view, I would not expect a replacement to this very handy 'Polish' word.
Magdalena 3 | 1,837
20 Apr 2011 #231
There's nothing wrong with it, it just 'serves' as a particular dress in which dancers of cancan appear on the stage in the Moulin Rouge. No one uses it in everyday Polish, however, if they did, then they would not only sound pretentious, but extremely silly, indeed.

This.

Contrary to using 'comeback' in a strictly specific context, I find the above just as moronic as you have found it.

As well as this.

It sounds a bit clumsy, in my view, I would not expect a replacement to this very handy 'Polish' word.

And this.

Thank you, Ziemowit, for saying it as it is :-)
boletus 30 | 1,366
20 Apr 2011 #232
Sławomir Mizerski is a funny guy. Here is a small excerpt from: Następni do raju, Polityka - nr 6, 2004-02-07
archiwum.polityka.pl/art/nastepni-do-raju,382850.html

Kasting zaczyna się rano o dziewiątej, tłum zapisuje się przy stoliku, otrzymuje numery na przylepcu i pisze w skupieniu CV, które uśmiechnięci disnejlendzi uprzejmie zbierają, prosząc w obcych językach o zajmowanie miejsc, gdyż za chwilę nastąpi prezentejszyn z udziałem rzutnika oraz pani Madeline, menedżer talent kasting, i wtedy każdy się dowie wszystkiego.

On the site of "The Council for the Polish Language" (Rada Języka Polskiego), rpj.pan.pl there is a page devoted to linguistic advices. Prof. Bralczyk, the council's chairman, is a self-declared linguistic liberal, but even he cannot stand pretentious names sometimes.

Here are some examples of names rejected by the council: "szynek" (to be used as name of a product), "wielopak" or "multipack" (suggestion: use existing "zgrzewka"), "energetyzujący zapach" as a Polish translation of "fresh energy", Przysmak Świętokrzyski SNACK do smażenia, or "market".

A marketing director (...) asked for the council's blessing with respect to the word "market", which is customarily used in the name of a commercial network he manages. The chairman gave the negative answer:

[...]I cannot, unfortunately, share your opinion related to the usage of the word "market" in the name of the commercial network XXX. Contrary to what you write - this is not "a word functioning in Polish for a long time", and one could hardly find it in any Polish dictionary published before the year 2000. My own dictionary "Easy dictionary of difficult words" (Wilga, Warsaw 2000) lists it, but only in order to explain it to older people who do not understand what it means, and with an attached note that this is a pretentious word. I also disagree with your statement - sent to the Office of Competition and Consumer Protection (OCCP) - that the word "sklep" (shop) has some association with a room equipped with "lada" - a counter, but not with a space for self services. Now, newer dictionaries of Polish language, commencing with "Słownik języka polskiego" edited by Witold Doroszewski (vol. 8, p. 280, year 1966), provide a phrase "sklep samoobsługowy" (self-serving shop) but nowhere it appears that the "counter" (lada) is a necessary element of such "sklep" (shop). Therefore, I agree with the opinion of OCCP that the word "market" should be replaced by the word "sklep" on the signboards of the commercial network XXX.
FUZZYWICKETS 8 | 1,883
20 Apr 2011 #233
"comeback"..........uuucchhh.....almost as bad as "groupies".

Poland, you have a language. Use it.
Ziemowit 13 | 4,204
20 Apr 2011 #234
Here are some examples of names rejected by the council: "wielopak" or "multipack" (suggestion: use existing "zgrzewka"),

'Wielopak' sounds quite nice, it even sounds nicer than 'zgrzewka' to me, 'multipak' sounds awful. Wielopak has the truly Polish 'wielo-' in it, as well as its other part 'pak' is rooted firmly in the language [see the verb: pakować or the nouns: pakunek, paczka]. What comes to mind is that some words become replaced by others in the language over time. A classic example might be the word 'browar' which replaced its older equivalent in Polish in the course of the 17th century. That former word was 'mielcuch' and in the texts of that century we can still see phrases using both such as this one in the sub-title of a book: "Browar albo mielcuch", which might suggest that not all readers were familiar with this new word of German [not English!] origin. In spite of the fact that the old Polish language purists might have well objected to the change, the new word has won over the old one with the result that today no one in Poland - except perhaps for some specialists - has no idea what the hell the word 'mielcuch' might have meant.
alexw68
20 Apr 2011 #235
Wielopak

... sounds like a multivitamin supplement for the muscle-bound ;)
boletus 30 | 1,366
20 Apr 2011 #236
Funny :-)

Wielopak has the truly Polish 'wielo-' in it, as well as its other part 'pak' is rooted firmly in the language [see the verb: pakować or the nouns: pakunek, paczka]

According to Bralczyk, this actually brakes the standard for Polish combination of "wiele/o-" with nouns - not the verbs, as in "wielomian", "wielopust", "wielościan", etc. But he says: "Wyraz wielopak nie jest zatem utworzony wzorcowo, niemniej sądzę, że można go dopuścić jako nazwę używaną środowiskowo." However, he still advices to use "zgrzewka" instead.

Over here we like to be more specific: 6-pack, 12-pack, as in twelve pack of beer. :-)

boletus
na na na na na
breaks, of course
Ziemowit 13 | 4,204
21 Apr 2011 #237
Here is what I've found today on the site of the French quality paper "Le Figaro". The headline of one of their articles is: Breakfast à l'Élysée. And even if further down in the text they replace it with the proper French term 'petit déjeuner', the fact is that the bold letters of the headline cry this English word out in a purely French context. Quel scandale, mesdames et messieurs! But isn't it exactly the same thing as observed in the very specific use of the English term 'come-back' in the Polish language? Rien ne va plus dans ce monde de brutes!

Breakfast à l'Élysée
Tous les mardis, le chef de l'État reçoit les dirigeants de la majorité pour un petit déjeuner. Un théâtre d'échanges, d'affrontements et d'enjeux de pouvoir, qui s'est transformé au fil du temps en véritable séance de «coaching» de la majorité par le président. Un reflet du quinquennat depuis 2007.

C'est «the place to be». Là où il faut être. La grande réunion politique de la semaine. Celle où le président donne le la. Celle qui, dès l'automne 2007, consacra «l'hyperprésidence», quand ce petit déjeuner des dirigeants de la majorité,...


lefigaro.fr/mon-figaro/2011/04/20/10001-20110420ARTFIG00667-breakfast-a-l-elysee.php
----------------------------------
Voilà une veritable séance of "coaching" for some of the PF members ...
boletus 30 | 1,366
21 Apr 2011 #238
I do not know French, but I have the impression that the text you quote is just a little flick on the Sarkozy's nose and the English words are used here intentionally as a joke - in the similar manner as the Mizerski's quote from my post #239.

Besides. the word «coaching» is enclosed in guillemets, so this would not count as an argument that the French just gave up. :-)
Mr v - | 7
22 Apr 2011 #239
hi

Latin origin: 2,627 words; French: 1,273; Greek: 1,252; German: 910; English: 313; Italian: 298; Russian: 89; Turkish: 88; Ukrainian: 55; Spanish: 52; Hungarian: 43; Czech: 42; Arabic: 32; Hebrew: 19; Dutch: 19; etc.

Not sure how good the source is, but the point for me here is that the language is filled with words from other languages and is a living creature constantly growing. Some people like it, some people don't- either way English most likely took them from somewhere else anyway.
Eurola 4 | 1,906
22 Apr 2011 #240
Hebrew: 19;

Every language has a mixture of borrowed words. I think every language has the word 'Internet' now, right?
Are you listing borrowed words in Polish language? If so, I'm surprised that there are only 19 from Hebrew. Do you have a link?


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