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Polish case structure secrets: knowing which words go in which position?


chaza 50 | 253
4 Apr 2011 #1
hello again.
the problem i am still having is understanding the secret of knowing which words go in which position. when i wantb to say something, when i write it or say it, the words are in the wrong position, which makes the grammar wrong. so i still cant get my head around understanding how i put this right. for example;

postawiła na stół bukiet ciętych róź.
she put a bouquet of cut roses on the table.
if i wanted to say that, as the words came to my mind, i would naturaly put;
ona włoźię bukiet na cięty kwiaty na stół.

but the grammer is wrong you will now say, so what is the secret or tool to help correct this.
helpful
4 Apr 2011 #2
ona włoźię bukiet na cięty kwiaty na stół.

if you said 'ona postawiła bukiet ciętych kwiatów na stole' it also would be correct
OP chaza 50 | 253
4 Apr 2011 #3
i come across this kind of problem all the time, how do i know, or what do ihave to learn to put the verbs in the right order to be correct. many have said iwont be understood, which i accept, so how do i put it right. i think i was lucky in this example.

chaza
alexw68
4 Apr 2011 #4
or what do ihave to learn to put the verbs in the right order to be correct

It's more a case of what you have to UN-learn. Stop filtering it through the prism of English, that will always cause confusion.

Word order isn't the primary issue in Polish, it's much more variable than English (though the variations are for a reason). From what I can see It's cases you need to concentrate on. Forget word order till later.

Where are you learning your Polish, chaza? If it's outside Poland I can understand why you're taking this slightly bizarre 'this is what it SHOULD be like' approach. If it's in Poland, however, throw the bloody books away, they're more a hindrance than a help.
rozumiemnic 8 | 3,839
4 Apr 2011 #5
she put a bouquet of cut roses on the table

yes but Chaza when would you really NEED to say this in everyday communication? I suggest never!
Surely it would be better to learn by listening out for phrases that people say again and again in normal situations, and try to repeat and remember them?

throw the bloody books away

good idea!
OP chaza 50 | 253
4 Apr 2011 #6
thanks for that alex
it is from outside poland, although my cousin is in poland and i get help from her too, i have read about cases till again and again, i just dont get it. i understand what they are sying, but when i want to say something, my natural instinct is to say the polish eqivalent of what i want to say, which as you can see turns out to be wrong. my cousin says forget about the grammar for now lets just work on speaking polish, which is what i am doing now. i have been at this for two years, i am a lot better now, but it does frustrate me.

i agree rozumi
that phrase was just an example of my issue, it did make me laugh when alex said throw the books away. i would be lost without my book. when i say my book i mean the book where i write down all the things that you would say in real life situations. without my book i cant remember them.

chaza

chaza
ShortHairThug - | 1,103
4 Apr 2011 #7
my natural instinct is to say the polish eqivalent of what i want to say, which as you can see turns out to be wrong.

It turns out to be wrong because you’re using a wrong verb to describe the action. There’s nothing wrong with your word order in the example you have given, all you have to do is to learn the proper verb used in given situation to describe the action and your word endings of course but that will come naturally to you with time and practice. Polish is flexible enough to do that. If it’s more natural in your native language to express this idea by saying

ona włoźię bukiet na cięty kwiaty na stół

then clean it up a bit by using the proper word to describe the action you have in mind in the first place by saying "ona postawiła bukiet ciętych kwiatów na stole". Direct translation won’t help you in cases like this, włożyć in Polish is (to insert, to place it in, to put in) as położyć is (to place it on, to put it on) and unlike English where the words that follow don't matter as the action is determined by the pronoun that follows ie. (in, on), in polish it’s not the case, there’s a specific word for that action as in placing it in or on that is not interchangeable.

My expectation as a native speaker in the example you have given would be to hear something along the lines of (wazon, flakon), as in placing the flowers in the vase but I would never expect to hear that you put them on the table given that you use the word włożyć. I hope this might help you, I’m not a teacher so I have no idea how else to explain it. Stop translating directly from English and all will be clear
OP chaza 50 | 253
4 Apr 2011 #8
thank you thug
it all helps, and as i get better so does the rest of it. one small step for mankind as it were.

thanks

chaza
alexw68
4 Apr 2011 #9
thank you thug

I just love the way that sounds :)


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