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Posts by Ozi Dan  

Joined: 22 Nov 2007 / Male ♂
Last Post: 17 Feb 2016
Threads: Total: 26 / Live: 17 / Archived: 9
Posts: Total: 569 / Live: 349 / Archived: 220
From: Australia
Speaks Polish?: No
Interests: Martial arts, fishing, reading, the Napoleonic wars, my missus, Poland, cars......

Displayed posts: 366 / page 11 of 13
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Ozi Dan   
22 May 2013
History / Massacre of Polish Soldiers at Winniza in WW2? [5]

Hi all,

I've been reading some really old American Army documents regarding the Soviets. There was mention of Polish soldiers shot at Winniza by the Soviets, with Polish Officers saying that the Poles were dressed up as someone else after the murders.

I can really find nothing about this online, with the closest finding relating to Vinnitsia and a terrible massacre of Ukrainians by the Soviets. Matters referring to Winniza were in languages I couldn't understand.

Can anyone shed any light? Has anyone been to Winniza?
Ozi Dan   
23 May 2013
History / Massacre of Polish Soldiers at Winniza in WW2? [5]

I hope that helps.

Thanks Chris.

The document reported on the Soviets taking Polish Priests to a mass grave, and showing purportedly Russian soldiers who had been murdered by the Germans. Polish Officers reported that the dead were actually their colleagues, dressed up in someone else's uniform.

I'll try and dig up the document. It was on the net.
Ozi Dan   
24 May 2013
History / How different would WW2 turned out if Poland accepted Hitler's offer [215]

He wanted to use them to fight Soviets whom he seen as communist in his mind it equalled the world Jewry.

Wasn't it the case mate that towards the end of the war he or Himmler tried to set up a Polish unit to fight the Soviets under Nazi auspices that went nowhere because only a few dozen Poles volunteered?
Ozi Dan   
24 May 2013
Polonia / Is Holland antipolish? [29]

how much antipolish sentiment should I expect?

Hardly any, if the Dutch admiration and respect of Poles who fought there in WW2 is anything to go by. In 2006 the Dutch Queen herself bestowed Honours and Awards upon General Sosabowski and the Polish Para. Brigade. As with all immigrants, if you fit in, learn the language quickly, make friends with the locals, don't criticise your hosts, and try to be more Dutch than the Dutch themselves, you should be ok. Good luck mate!
Ozi Dan   
24 May 2013
Polonia / Is Holland antipolish? [29]

Are you sure?

Positive. As I said, if the admiration the Dutch show towards the Poles who fought for their liberation is anything to go by, he'll be ok, provided as well that the OP makes sure he fits in etc. I'm sure your dad, like mine, did all these things and blended in perfectly in Australia. Perhaps some of the Poles of today who emigrate would do well to learn from what the post-WW2 émigré Poles did and didn't do in their host nations when they first arrived.
Ozi Dan   
28 May 2013
News / Adolf Hitler is still a citizen of Szczecin [15]

The article is (obviously) not an attack on Poland, and it's ridiculous that it has been portrayed as such.

Respectfully, it might be an idea to clearly set out in your post that the article you refer to in your post was written by you and that you own the online newspaper in which it was featured.

As to the issue, I suspect nothing short of the Polish Sejm enacting some form of retrospective legislation would compel the Prosecutor to act. I'm not sure why the Prosecutor is involved though - I would have thought that it would have been some form of civil issue, not requiring a citizen to chase the matter up.
Ozi Dan   
28 May 2013
Genealogy / All Future Polish Genealogy Researchers: Please Read before you start a thread [45]

The Polish territory was annexed by the three nations and the whole world acknowledged that status quo.

Fallacy of false attribution.

Polonius is correct. Poland was partitioned and occupied. This was done against the will and without the consent of Poland, thus there was no legitimacy. The mere fact that foreign powers 'acknowledged' matters is not in any way proof of same, and is as false as me saying that I now own your property and it is mine because some of my friends agree that it is now mine.
Ozi Dan   
28 May 2013
Genealogy / All Future Polish Genealogy Researchers: Please Read before you start a thread [45]

If we would follow your argument we would have to come to the conclusion that the Roman and British Empires (for example) were totally illegitimate and everything they stood for was pure evil.

Fallacy of false analogy.

Well, the world doesn't work like that as we all know. Even if some nationalists of Polish descent would like to convince us of the opposite... :)

Straw man fallacy.

Now, how about addressing the real issue at hand, and without the cheek, fallacious commentary or thought terminating cliches.
Ozi Dan   
5 Jun 2013
Genealogy / Was George Peppard Polish?? [2]

Hi all,

As a young kid, dad and I used to watch the A-Team religiously. Dad used to tell me that George Peppard was of Polish origin (George Paprowski or similar). Seeing Breakfast at Tiffany's the other night (yawn - forced by the missus and daughter) reminded me of him, and what my dad said. I checked online but could find nothing relevant, apart from some random forum where someone mentions he was Polish.

I suppose he kind of looks Polish, but does anyone know? Cheers OD.
Ozi Dan   
7 Jun 2013
Genealogy / Polish looks? [1462]

What are the typical facial features of Polish men/women and how do they compare to those of other Slavic people?

In my opinion, characteristic Polish features distinguishing Poles from other Slavs would be high cheek bones, pronounced widow's peak hairlines in males (ie the 'vampire hairline') and flat backs of the head.
Ozi Dan   
7 Jun 2013
Genealogy / Polish looks? [1462]

No mate, I mean the back of the head. Most people have a back of the head that is curved, or semi circular, from the nape of the neck to the top of the head, whereas I've observed that some Polish people, typically males, have a far more flatter back of the head, meaning not that it is dead flat, but far less curved (I have this too). Do you agree? What do you think about the widow's peak hairline?
Ozi Dan   
7 Jun 2013
Genealogy / Polish looks? [1462]

Have you ever seen a bald Polish woman?

I think you misunderstand me Wulkan. I was referring here to the shape of the head, rather than hair. My hair reference was to the widow's peak.

sweet Jesus! sounds scary, thanks god I don't have this

It's all good mate, nothing to be afraid of.

I have that! not sure if it's typical...

So do I, so did my dziadek, and so did one of my grand uncle's. If you have a look at some of the pics of General Sikorski, you'll see what I mean. This is how we are destined to look when we are older mate!
Ozi Dan   
19 Jun 2013
History / What do Poles owe to Russians? [193]

Instead of blaming Russians, direct your historical accusations to the Polish elites of 16/17/18 centuries who contributed to the eventual fall of Poland.

Post hoc ergo propter hoc.

Any proposition that "Poles" made their country "weak" and that such weakness caused Poland to be conquered is simply wrong. The inherent weakness that Poland is 'guilty' of is failing to reconcile and legislate what was to happen in the event of the Liberum Veto being applied (in limited circumstances), with such application hamstringing the passing of other legislation and/or being used by interests or powers contrary to the Cth's bests interests and/or sovereignty.

The cause of the Cth's downfall was the avarice of her neighbours. Absent the actions of her neighbours and Poland would not have fallen - indeed, at the time of the Partitions, she was remedying the inherent deficiencies in her society and legislature. What you're saying is like saying that the assault victim should blame themselves for being unable to fight off their attacker, and that their inability to fight off the attacker was the cause of their injuries.

Similar notions were used by the Colonial/Imperial powers when conquering other nations or peoples, with the dogma that such conquered people deserved it by virtue of various nebulous justifications such as their purported inability to govern themselves, racial inferiority and so on - these are not reasons or causes, but merely propaganda propounded by the victor so as to try to give some form of legitimacy for their actions.
Ozi Dan   
19 Jun 2013
Off-Topic / Modern parenting = bad parenting? [20]

Parents want an easy life -. But what they don't realise is they are storing up more trouble

I agree with you here. I'm guilty of taking this option sometimes, and letting the kids get away with things because it's simpler to just ignore it. That said, sometimes it is difficult to know which 'battle' to pick and which to let go - this is because I don't want to have the kids growing up and resenting me for trying to dominate and micro-manage every aspect of their behaviour. It's also difficult sometimes to draw the line between what constitutes boisterous behaviour and bad behaviour - I'd like to say I'm getting better at it!

my little boy is 10 months old and knows what NO means!

Congratulations Amathyst. I hope your little boy grows up happy and healthy. First child?
Ozi Dan   
19 Jun 2013
History / What do Poles owe to Russians? [193]

Of course it is not wrong.

Ok, let's hear how it is right then. The floor is yours Pawian...

Don`t pretend such a naive idealist. :):):) As I said, the "avarice" of neighbours has been a constant element of our civilisation for millenia. Poland lost the struggle for creating a lasting strong important country due to the grave mistakes of her elites.

I'm not pretending at all. You never said anything about avarice of neighbours, nor was your proposition that Poland failed to create a strong country by virtue of the actions of the elites - you said words to the effect that Poland shouldn't blame the Russians but blame themselves. This is incorrect.

If the granny had a moustache, she would be your uncle. :):):) Come on, that is utter naivety. I can`t believe you are saying it seriously. You are kidding me now.

Why profess mock indignation? It is true. But for the avarice of her neighbours, Poland would not have fallen. Feel free to argue how Poland's partitions would have happened otherwise - I'm all ears.

Bigger fish eat smaller fish and you can`t change it.

That may be, but your argument was that the smaller fish ought to blame itself for being consumed because it was smaller. This is a nonsense.

Of course, that goes that way. But, don`t be naive again.

No, not naïve at all. Naivety in this context is to put forward an argument that the conqueror's 'justifications' for conquest shouldn't be debated or pointed out because this would in some way be unhelpful to the conquered. And please, don't try any straw man arguments on me Pawian.
Ozi Dan   
19 Jun 2013
Life / Etiquette in a Store and Market Queues in Poland [146]

But one thing that I found really irritating in Poland is how close people stand in queues.

Mate, it happens here in Australia all the time. I was at the servo yesterday buying fuel. I went to the counter to pay, then turned around and there was a bloke standing right behind me, not more than 30cms. There was no-one else in the queue! At that same servo a few days earlier I was actually trapped when I turned around to leave. A guy was right behind me and a lady was right behind to my left. All three of us had to engage in an idiotic side step manoeuvre for me to be able to leave the counter.

What really annoys me is when you go to type in your pin number for eftpos and some goose is standing just behind and to your side. If I sense this I'll turn around with a frustrated look and a really loud, frustrated sigh, then shake my head as I face the counter again. It also gets me when you're at the counter or checkout paying for your stuff and the dill behind you reaches around you to pick up some chewy or a lolly on display, when all they had to do was wait til they were next and pick it up from right in front of them.
Ozi Dan   
19 Jun 2013
History / What do Poles owe to Russians? [193]

Let`s agree to disagree, then

Absolutely fine with me mate.

An idealist view clashes with the realist one, it is like fire and water, never able to reach concord.

No need for the snide parting shot Pawian. If you need a time out to gather your thoughts, that's cool, but just don't try to pretend that you're walking away as the person with the superior or more convincing argument.

Well put Dan. I can learn form you the art of clear reasoning .

Thanks for the vote of confidence mate.
Ozi Dan   
20 Jun 2013
History / What do Poles owe to Russians? [193]

I said it was senseless trying to convince you with reasonable arguments because your point of view is too idealistic

Argumentum ad passiones.

I read your argument, I repeated it to you, and I countered with my argument, which obviously disagreed with yours. You offered nothing in further support of your argument, or in counter to mine, except to repeat the mantra that I'm apparently idealistic and shouldn't be listened to whereas you're a realist and ought to be. To me, that is senseless.

Now that I've cleared the air, would you like to tell us how the downfall of Poland (particularly the Partitions) could have occurred but for the avarice of Poland's neighbours?

we should talk about hard core realistic politics where there is no mercy for the weak, but they are devoured, in parts or whole. But wise elites, having good resources, are able to prevent it happening. With such resources as Poland used to have in the past, allowing it to be partitioned was unheard-of an event in the history of Europe.

If you wish to talk about 'realistic politics', then fine, but don't do so whilst peering through the lens of hindsight because anyone can be wise after the fact.

As you know, the thrust of Poland's Constitutional/Legal/Monarchical position, commencing in the Medieval period (but really bonding in the C16), was placed, and indeed postulated, against the background of Poland's immediate neighbours, and somewhat having regard to places such as England etc. These 'other' countries had, generally, two key areas of longstanding difficulty that Poland saw, and wished to avoid, namely lack of religious tolerance, and despotic/autocratic rule (I acknowledge there were others though).

Poland, in seeking to avoid the Despotism of Muscovy, the Divine Royalty of England and the Enlightened Imperialism of the HRE, fostered three key concepts that transposed themselves from ideals into reality by virtue of becoming enshrined in legislation - the right to vote for the king, the right to rebel against the king, and the principle of unanimity.

These concepts, let alone being legally enshrined rights and obligations, were a stupendous victory (having regard to what was happening elsewhere in Europe) for democratic rule over arbitrary and unilateral rule. They were not vices - they were virtues.

Turning to religion, you mention Skarga - he was somewhat sagacious in his counsel, but he also advocated for reining in religious tolerance, and for that, he falls down, because religious tolerance, at the time, was key to fostering a stable and peaceful society. He was not listened to because what he advocated smacked too much to the szlachta of turning to the realities of the unilateral and arbitrary rule that I mentioned above, and this was unacceptable having regard to what the szlachta saw happening in the said countries.

If you wish to advocate 'reality' over 'idealism', then rather than going half-way and saying the szlachta should have paid taxes and the 'elites' should have done something, then you would advocate that the Cth. should have afforded the king absolute power over raising taxes, absolute power over dictating foreign policy, absolute power over the Army, Star Chamber justice for those szlachta who resisted, and a foreign policy of invasion and occupation of the HRE, Muscovy, Sweden and so on. After all, if the reality was 'dog eat dog', the Cth. had several ample opportunities to crush any one or all of these nations, and for the purposes of staving off a potential threat, or simply for the purposes of aggrandisement.

Poland, and later the Cth., chose a different path. Whilst it had its obvious failings and aberrations, it was far better in terms of equity and justice than the models adopted by other European countries. That it was later scorned by its critics (Carlyle called it a marvellously luminous rot heap) is not a measure of its success or otherwise, but rather the propaganda of apologists of other nations who were at the time waging war in Europe over the preferred way to decorate a church, burning and torturing women for being different, and locking up and subjecting to summary execution dissidents who did not believe that one person should have the right to rule over others without being held to account.

Perhaps King Zygmunt said it best when he quipped "It is not a question of religion, but a question of liberty" and "permit me sir, to be the king of the goats as well as the sheep".

That some of the said countries took advantage of the Cth. in consuming it like an artichoke is not a matter that warrants blame being placed on the Cth., but is a matter that warrants attention in terms of discussing how dissimulation and propaganda can successfully be applied in fooling some into believing that Colonialism, Imperialism, Occupation and Partitioning is the fault of the nation being subject to same.

Two more words: I hope you never become a leader of any country.

Another one, Mr Idealist:

As to the above comments, the scorn of silent reproach is the only worthy and deserving response.
Ozi Dan   
20 Jun 2013
Life / Professional feminists' of Poland meet-up [631]

The nuclear family is INTEGRAL to the fabric of Western civilization and should be upheld above all other things.

I strongly disagree that it should be upheld above anything else. Incidents of Domestic Violence are the key exception and the safety of spouses, and more importantly the children, trumps any notion that keeping the family unit together ought to be paramount.

Whilst I certainly agree that the family unit ought to be put forward as a tenet of any society, and not only Western Society (including same sex families), sometimes the unit falls apart due to the horrific actions of one or both the spouses. It is far better to separate than to maintain 'the family' with (typically) the female spouse living in absolute misery and the children growing up in that climate and oftentimes perpetuating the cycle of domestic violence in their own future relationships.

If the 'feminist movement' can be credited for one thing, it is bringing to the spotlight issues of domestic violence in the home and making domestic violence an issue for society and not one where it's kept behind closed doors, or seen as something to shirk away from. I say this too in the context of men who suffer domestic violence - at least in Australia, there is equality of standing in bringing about an application for a DVO whether personally or with the assistance of Police.

I shudder to think of the number of spouses (and the effected children) who suffered domestic violence but who refused to get out of the relationship on the basis that they thought it was better to stay together 'for the kids'.
Ozi Dan   
17 Sep 2013
History / A query on Polish sabres (which resembles the Karabela style) [4]

Hi all,

Wondering if I could enlist the assistance of any forum members who may know about old Polish sabres.

I've found what appears to be a very old sabre in an antiques store and I wanted to know if there's any mark or characteristic I should look for to establish whether or not it's Polish. The tag describes it as an Eastern sword or similar, but this I think reflects that the store owner doesn't know much about swords as it's mainly a furniture and bric a brac store.

I would say it most closely resembles the Karabela style in blade and handle. The blade is a fairly dull damasc steel. The hilt and pommel are covered in what appears to be mother of pearl or a similar pearlescent white glossy material, which looks as though it's made up of different large pieces like a mosaic. There is no scabbard.

Look forward to your thoughts! Cheers Dan
Ozi Dan   
17 Sep 2013
History / A query on Polish sabres (which resembles the Karabela style) [4]

Thanks mate, I have googled, but what I really wanted to know was whether Polish sabres have some characteristic maker's mark if made in Poland or an import mark or similar if made elsewhere (ie the blade, which were usually Persian, Spanish or German). Unfortunately I didn't take a piccy as I didn't have my mobile on me as it was a "family outing", but I remember it fairly well. It seems a good price at about $660 odd.

If I can tear myself away from work and get out there again I'll take some but I wouldn't have a clue how to download the pic onto the forum.
Ozi Dan   
24 Sep 2013
News / American soldier saved Polish officer's life [13]

the Polish Army Gold Medal

Thanks for bringing this to our attention mate. I think nothing less than the Virtuti Militari is due and owing to this heroic soldier. May he Rest in Peace.

Crow: God is a figment of a collect imagination of unimaginative people.

Have some respect. This thread is for the memory of this hero, not for snide comment about God.
Ozi Dan   
24 Sep 2013
History / Is Jozef Pilsudski the king of modern Poles? [138]

I firmly believe Poland has a MUCH different experience in WW2 with Pilsudski around.

I agree. Had Pilsudski still been head of state of Poland before and during WW2, I think the sheer force of his personality and his prestige could have caused different paths to have been taken in the crucial stages of WW2 that ultimately effected Poland.

No doubt Pilsudski's presence would have solidified the London Government and I'm fairly confident the liberties HMG took with the Poles would not have occurred. Whether for good or bad, Pilsudski, when ascertaining the depth and perfidy of HMG's betrayal, would have cancelled Polish support of the Allied war effort and focussed attention on Poland fighting for Poland's freedom, rather than someone else's, and with no prospect of support in kind.

Teheran would not have occurred because Pilsudski would not have let it occur. He would have demanded to be present or to have it made known what were the terms of the agreement in principle reached between the Powers there. If Poland was treated as an unpaid wh*re by the Allies, Pilsudski, at the very least, would have been the pimp beating down doors demanding payment and recognition for services rendered.

The Promethean principle promulgated by Pilsudski too could have gained better purchase just prior to the commencement of WW2. Whilst it engendered some revulsion, it was inherently sound and a common sense proposal for that region of Europe at that time, having regard to the fact that the region was bordered by two of the most bloodthirsty regimes in modern European history. Could the Cold War and Poland being left to the Soviets after WW2 have been averted as a consequence of the Promethean principle? Probably, but we'll never know.

Would Anders have been released from HMG's servitude had Pilsudski exerted pressure on Churchill? Again, most likely. Sikorski was a great man but I think he was too "nice". Pilsudski, I think, had a better grasp of realpolitik - this is what was needed for a leader of Poland through WW2.

A Pole fighting for someone else evinces praise as being the 'gallant Pole'. When the Pole passes the cap around searching for some help in kind, the comment is usually 'that quarrelsome Pole' trying to undo the established order. Europe has never understood Poland, and whilst Poland has understood in part how Europe works, it has rarely grasped the correct manner to deal with Europe. Pilsudski understood the dynamic well, and, more importantly, knew just how to play the game. He was mostly a man of honour and chivalry, but also understood that honour and chivalry won't stop a German or Russian bullet, nor would it compel Poland's 'Allies' to stick to their word.

Of course, the above is pure speculation, but the possibilities could have been far different.

PiƂsudski did not make peace with either the Reds nor the Whites because he wanted the Ukraine.

With respect, incorrect. Pilsudski did not join the Whites because, amongst other things, he foreshadowed Denikin's absolute intolerance to Polish Independence, not to mention Denikin's position that Ukrainian independence would have been tolerated even less. Pilsudski in part saw the resurgent Whites as more of a threat than the Bolsheviks too.

He decided to let them fight it out amongst themselves whilst building on Poland's strength for the coming showdown with the victor. Both were anathema to Poland, and Pilsudski had no obligation to help.

Realpolitik as practiced by Pilsudski.
Ozi Dan   
24 Sep 2013
News / American soldier saved Polish officer's life [13]

It can, it has and (whilst I don't speak for Poland) should. I think too Poland should give consideration to some of the Cth pilots who flew and died during the Warsaw airlift, as well as perhaps John Ward.

There should in my view be no distinction between a Pole fighting for Poland and a foreigner doing the same - it is the action, not the individual, that attracts the meaning and conferral of this award.
Ozi Dan   
24 Sep 2013
News / American soldier saved Polish officer's life [13]

Cth?

Abbreviation of Commonwealth.

Agreed, although it's perhaps somewhat a stretch to say that this particular American was fighting for Poland.

You're right, though I wasn't particularly referring to him when saying this. In any event, I'm not familiar with the condition(s) precedent for having the medal conferred, but I'm sure what SSGT Ollis did would tick one of the boxes.
Ozi Dan   
24 Sep 2013
History / Is Jozef Pilsudski the king of modern Poles? [138]

Yawn. That would be the same betrayal that you love to whine on and on and on about but you can't actually give any details of, right? Anyway, just for the sake of form, I'll now ask you to go into detail as to what aid it was within HMG's power to give to Poland in September 1939 which was not given. You of course will fail to do that.

This has been canvassed between us several times, the last of which was contained in the thread "How different would WW2 have been if Poland accepted Hitler's offer". If memory serves, the ball was left in your court after I served what may well be regarded as an ace. I'm not in the habit of bidding against myself either, so it's your turn Harry...

Ozi Dan: Teheran would not have occurred because Pilsudski would not have let it occur.You mean he wouldn't have let a certain world leader propose the current western border of Poland? Which world leader was that?

I have absolutely no idea what you're on about. No need to rephrase however, as I'm wholly uninterested in what you have to say.

So you agree he was a master of Realpolitik - good!

If you'd bothered to read up on the Promethean principle you'd realise it had nothing to do with Great Britain (snigger).

There are a few Lithuanians who would have had something to say about that statement, and a few Ukrainians, Czechs and Slovaks too.

Cool story bro. You know them no doubt? Why don't you dredge them up from a blog to speak for you, like you did when you lost the debate on Family Law in Poland and the Hague Convention - you do remember that embarrassing incident don't you?

If he was a master of realpolitik then he would have recognized Denikin's diplomatic ploy.

I'm unfamiliar with this ploy, and, in any event, I never attributed Pilsudski as being a wizard who could read people's minds to ascertain their ploys.

Pilsudski destroyed independent Ukraine.

Okay, you've won me over. Well argued.

The Germans had no reason to ally with Poland because they saw two countries to the East that were far weaker and they coveted a large empire like the British and the Americans.

Sorry, I'm not sure where Germany comes into this. Could you link it in somewhere rather than springing it?
Ozi Dan   
3 Oct 2013
History / capitulation of Warsaw Uprising [16]

@sofijufka
I'm saddened to hear that your great aunt died, but happy that she survived the Rising. I hope your cousin survived? Was she a combatant? If so, where was she stationed? It'd be interesting to see if she was anywhere near where my dziadek and dad were. My dziadek was KIA on the 4th day of the Rising, but my dad survived with my babcia.

"Euro German"? - does this mean a Ukrainian or Russian? Dad told me they were the worst for looting and murder, along with the SS, but that the Wehrmacht were relatively speaking more 'civilised'.

Gloria victis!

Amen.

General Anders for example thought it was madness.

It's interesting to contrast that sentiment of Gen Anders with his later desire to have Polish forces released from service under HMG so as to fight their way back to Poland in early to mid 1945. Regardless, he was a great man and a hero.

Take Leopold Okulicki

Bear Cub was no loony or murderer. I'm really surprised and disappointed that someone like you would say that Enkidu. You should take that back please.

You may not know it, but Bear Cub wrote a statement whilst imprisoned by the NKVD in which he deposed to the reasons for the Rising, its rationale, and the arguments for and against. He, like countless thousands of other Polish men and women after the war found death at the hands of a Soviet jailer.

The luxury of hindsight and presentism allows armchair experts to wring their hands and wag their fingers at the leaders of the AK who made the decision to fight. The decision was made by those at the coal face. There was no other option and that it ended without victory for the Poles is not a condition precedent to some sort of self-fulfilling prophecy that all the Poles ever did was always wrong whenever they lost.

The atmsophere in Warsaw in which the decision was made was unlike nearly any other city or place during WW2. The Germans had, by word and deed, made it abundantly clear that Poles of whatever religious subscription were to be killed whether out of hand or by being worked to death. This was not a place where surrender was an option. It was the case that you either fought and died with maybe a slim prospect of success, or did nothing and died anyway. It was most certainly the case that the 'doctrine of two enemies' ventured by Pilsudski was coming to actual fruition and Warsaw was going to be the anvil for two hammers.

Do you not understand that the Germans had no regard for the Rules of War in Poland? Have you not heard how Germans and their auxillaries would take Polish infants by the legs and smash their bodies against walls, or throw them in the air and bayonet them? Are you unfamiliar with the mass murder of civilians in the streets as reprisal for any actual or perceived act of sabotage or death of a German? Please, go and find out what 'life' was really like there at the time from someone who was actually there, then come back and tell us what you would have done if you were in the shoes of Bor or Bear Cub. Your other options are pretty much limited to two though - you could have lain low and 'hid', or simply surrendered. How would that have worked out, having regard to what actually happened to those who did that?
Ozi Dan   
3 Oct 2013
History / Why did Russia attack Poland in WW2? [178]

Especially the Polish cavalry... :)

I wouldn't smile too much mate. There could be a Polish grandfather or grand-uncle of yours who was actually an Uhlan and who could have been responsible for stemming the tide at Kutno.

Or perhaps the smiley is because a German ancestor of yours was in the vanguard of the German advance and perhaps fought an Uhlan?

In any event, it must be difficult for you having the two different 'gene pools'. Given your comments, it seems the 'German' prevails, though the 'Polish' resides in the deeper reaches, which you try to exorcise completely by coming here and making the strange comments you sometimes do (with the smiley faces to make it seem tongue in cheek). Am I far from the mark?