History / Warsaw Rising 1944 - National Disaster or Triumph of Spirit ? [395]


Hi Pawian. There is no doubt in my mind that had HMG not given a very strong and clear message to the Germans that if they massacred the AK prisoners, similar would befall the German prisoners in British custody, these AK prisoners would be dead. If you had any relatives who fought in the Rising, they have probably told you gut churning stories of what was done to AK and civilian prisoners once caught.

In contrast, the AK (with rare exception) observed the proper procedure for taking and holding German prisoners, though I am aware of one instance where arbitrary vengeance was meted out to a German flamethrower team who burned a civilain family alive in their basement.

The anecdoes of WW2 are littered with Polish forebearance toward a fallen enemy. I think it was Skalski who in the first days of the war, shot down a German pilot, then actually landed to check if he was alright.


It's actually quite correct. The Germans suffered such a high proportion of kiled to wounded by virtue of the AK's limited ammunition - simply, the AK had to make every shot count, and had a high proportion of marksmen in their ranks.

In fact, the AK's success and guerilla nous was such that some German counter partisan units from the East were brought in to learn how to fight in an urban environment from the AK.


I love this simple poem from Michener - thanks for positng it mate! Did you like "Poland"?

News / Poland fines singer for bashing Bible [159]


My mind on these types of issues is usually drawn to the words of the renowned jurist O.W Holmes, who pronounced words to the effect that freedom of speech should not protect one who would falsely shout "fire" in a crowded theatre. To some degree, this is apposite here. What do you think?

On the other hand, my mind is drawn to the historic Polish trait (generally speaking) of separating liberty from religious prescription - it was I believe King Zygmunt who, when pressed by the Papal legate to take action against heretics, uttered words to the effect of "Permit me Sir to be the King of the Sheep and the Goats".

Whilst it may be difficult to reconcile these two seemingly opposite modes of thought, it is possible if one takes into account the relative context (in a time/political sense) to when both freedom of religion and speech were postulated, and with a sprinkling of common sense.

History / Battle of Warsaw/Miracle at the Vistula in Poland [12]


I think you're right. Davies in Rising 44 (Notes) refers to a new edition to be published in 2003.


I'll try and dig out an essay I did at Uni in the 90's as it had a bibliography with a lot of different authors/works. Can't guarantee I'll find it in time for you though but I'll try. Alexander(?) Giesztor rings a bell as being another author who wrote a fairly good history, though I think this was published back in the 1960's.

Hi Wedle,

I'm sorry but I couldn't find the bibliography and can't help any further with other works. All the best.

History / Battle of Warsaw/Miracle at the Vistula in Poland [12]

Whilst it doesn't exclusively deal with the C20, "Heart of Europe" by Davies is essentially an abridged version of God's Playground and seems to borrow heavily on the salient parts. I'd recommend that as it's about 350 pages and a good read.

I've also read Lukowski (Liberty's Folly - more to do with C17) but I think he has a general history of Poland as well in another work.

I haven't heard of the other books you've cited but they sound interesting.

I'm not sure if there's a 2nd edition of WERS. The one I had was a beat up old paperback. I'll try and find it.

Have you thought of also giving him Michener's "Poland" - a work of fiction based on 'fact', but a good read nonetheless and it'll probably whet his appetite for other works.

Cheers.

Life / Babcia or Busha - any social class difference? [359]


Well, for one thing, Harry professes to not speak the Polish language.

As to whether or not Busia is inherently Polish per se, I cannot be certain. My dad however has never heard of it and still has fluent command of the Polish language. Who cares anyway? Is there anything serious at stake here for you and your friends to argue so forcefully against a concept that a nebulous word that appears to be a contraction of something else cannot be Polish?

History / Battle of Warsaw/Miracle at the Vistula in Poland [12]


Hi Wedle. I havent read Zamoyski but I read Davies book many years ago, and, as usual with Davies, found it an excellent read. If you're aware of Davies work, you'll know that he writes in an imaginative style, whereas Zamoyski seems slightly drier and more prosaic. Either way, I'm sure you won't go wrong with either author in terms of accuracy.

Is there anything specific you wish to know about the Battle of Warsaw? If it's anything battle related, I can try and ask my dad, whose dad, uncles and removed cousin all fought in it and related some stories to him (think I posted a piccie on PF of the three of them taken shortly after the battle).

I've always been interested in this battle on the grounds that it was the last large scale cavalry battle in Europe, and of course the Poles beat the Muscovites hordes. What's your interest in it?

Cheers Dan

History / Do polish people know that some of them fought a war against the United States? [60]


May I ask if you think it important to qualify that phrase with "Communist"? I think it important to distinguish "free" Poland, as opposed to Commo Poland, don't you? It's just so that people who aren't really familiar with history understand the nuance attached to any deed or thing by the qualification that the subject is Communist, or to that effect.

I also personally think it's an insult and an affront to the memory of those that perished fighting for a free Poland to not delineate between the actions of those under Communist Poland and those living in free Poland.

History / Poland: Her heroes and her traitors [214]

Whenever I think of Polish heroes I think of the likes of Bear Cub, Nil and Novak. Their deeds, and particularly the silence under torture of the former 2, hold them high as paragons of virtue and selflessness. If I could have but 100th of the honour contained in the little finger of 1 of them I would be satisfied.

I think Davies described Bear Cub as a knight without peer or reproach, and that is true.

History / Do polish people know that some of them fought a war against the United States? [60]


A rose by any other name.


Inconsistent comparison.


Communist Poles you mean?

Off-Topic / I thought my house had ghosts, but according to a paranormal psychic it is hovering demon [30]


I believe you. I've had a similar experience, though not as severe, when I was in my mid teens. I suspect that only those that have experienced these types of things can relate, because these types of experiences cannot be explained, and you know it when it happens.

My friend was with me at the time. We were staying at his house and had gone for a motorbike ride. No one was in the house, as his mother and sister were on holidays. The house was isolated on an acreage.

Anyways, we had parked up just under the house (it was on pylons). It was late afternoon. We were getting ready to go inside when we heard a noise from inside. It was coming through the floorboards and was only a few metres away, over our heads.

It wasn' what we saw but what we heard - I can only describe it as a disembodied voice that penetrated through the house, speaking in a language we had never heard of. It sounded deep and evil.

My friend and I looked at each other to verify what we had heard. We got back on the bike and didn't return for a few days. There were no signs of entry in the house. We still talk about this incident. We both agree it was something paranormal and it wasn't good. It still gives me goosebumps.

We spoke to his mum about it later, and she told us she had seen something years before at the house that looked like a Chinese man dressed in mandarin style.

The same friend and I saw something else that still creeps us out. Again, we had been bike riding, in a forest, and were parked in a clearing to have a break and a ciggie. I saw something through the bush (Aussie low lying scrub with gum trees) probably 20-30 metres away, which I thought was a gigantic kangaroo - it was absolutely massive, with short brownish-grey fur - I guess 7 foot high. It was just standing there. I pointed it out to my friend and he freaked out. It turned its face to us, and it wasn't any kangaroo, or anything we had seen ever. It was vaguely humanoid, and that's all I can remember now.

It just stood there, looking at us, unmoving. I freaked by that stage too - and guess what - my old Yamaha GT80 decided it didn't want to start. The feeling at that stage was not good - utter helplessness. I got it going and we took off. This creature never moved toward us though. Thank Christ it didn't.

Thinking back on it and examining the situation, the feeling I had at the time was reminiscent of blindly walking into something you shouldn't experience, or standing outside the window of a house where something bad is going down and one of the occupants looks up at you.

To those of you who doubt, you'll know it if you experience it.

History / Interesting memorial about 212 Polish soldiers [18]

Thanks for the info mate. Great story that I was totally unaware of. Cheers.

Good on the Poms of Portsmouth!

History / Why have Poles contributed so little to Academics? (Particularly Science) [180]


But the OP asked a question about Poles (inclusive presumably) rather than Christian Poles. I'm a bit confused here, are you the same person?

I infer from your quoted post that you wish to cast a negative aspersion vis a vis Poland's purported lack of contribution to academia. I apologise if I am wrong and would appreciate clarification. Cheers.

History / Why have Poles contributed so little to Academics? (Particularly Science) [180]


They have. Why not google "Timeline of Polish science and technology". That'll set you right champ.


These Jews are Poles of Jewish faith nonetheless aren't they? Why distinguish?

History / POLAND: EASTERN or CENTRAL European country? [1080]


Oops! Sorry to the Ukraine. And sorry for the typo too, though I suspect if one could indulge in eating a country, Poland would probably be 'eatenmost'.


Kind of (thanks for the save mate). I was actually in a historic mindset when I typed that, per my reference to the literature of the C16 & 17.

News / What's the stupidest question asked about Poland? [414]


Were Cool Rock-ski and Lovebug Starski Polish?

History / POLAND: EASTERN or CENTRAL European country? [1080]


I had always had it in my mind that Poland was in Eastern Europe, and indeed the Eaternmost European country. Literature from the C16 or 17 refers to Poland as the easternmost bastion of Christianity.

History / Did British public protest against the sell out of Poland to the Soviets? [286]

PWEI?


Can someone tell me who this noob poster is please? He's carrying on like he has some issue with me. It's as though he's upset because I've owned him on several occasions in the past on this forum (viz Harry), but surely that can't be, because I've never communicated with this PWEI.


I'd like to help you chief, but I just don't understand your question, as it makes no sense - i.e. it would be a strange agreement indeed that had parts showing independence being threatened. Perhaps rephrase it?

Actually, now I remember - there was an Aussie chap who called himself "Harry" on this forum (he hasn't been here in a while, having, one can only assume, exhausted himself online from a surfeit of self-important toast liberally smeared with lashings of figjam – or was that kebabs?) and we had some particularly interesting debates on this very topic some time ago. There's a wonderful feature on this site called "search" - you can look up our debates (yes, before you come back and say it, I know, I owned him in every genuine debate we had).


Ah, we have a dilettante on Sikorski in our midst. Pray tell (as your knowledge on this would undoubtedly surpass mine), what was the rationale behind Sikorski's proposal here and what where the salient features of his proposal vis a vis how same could benefit Poland? Surely he didn't really mean to just give away parts of the Kresy with only a commensurate border shift to the West, as you imply? How did he go with putting this proposal to the Polish Govt in Exile? Did it ever progress beyond an ethereal pipe dream? Tally-ho, you’ve got some research to do…


When, then, was Poland made aware of this, and by whom? If it was indeed HMG bearing the message in discharge of its obligations under Art. 5 of the Treaty in consequence of matters arising in respect of Teheran, then tarry not and send Harry a PM advising of same, as I'm sure he spent many a sleepless night fumbling through Wiki looking for this very same piece of evidence in rebuttal of my proposition.


If this simply did not exist, then it is a simple matter to demonstrate that which existed, the existence of which would simply vindicate the rebuttal to the simple charge that HMG, simply put, betrayed Poland, when, to put it even more simply, a simple message of simplistic narrative, simplifying the simple outcomes of Teheran, simplistically delivered to the Poles, by simple minded people, was, to put it simply, never delivered. Simple no?

History / Are Poles grateful to the Russians for winning the war? [120]


How so?


How do you embrace your heritage?

History / Warsaw Rising 1944 - National Disaster or Triumph of Spirit ? [395]


Well said. Whilst I'm sure you're aware of it, Gen. Okulicki (aka Bear Cub) provided a statement as to the reasons why the Rising was launched. It makes compelling (and I'd suggest compulsory, given its candour) reading and is an Appendix to Davies' Rising '44, or may be available online. I prefer his views to the fantasies postulated by some of our resident armchair experts.

Indubitably, a triumph of the spirit, relative to the circumstances. I can't recall who said it, but to borrow a phrase "To Poland, it was more important to play the game fairly than to win it". Modern day Poland is far removed from such romantic notions, but vis a vis tragedies of the past, which cannot be changed or rationalised, such sentiment provides solace and a hope that the sacrifice wasn't in vain.

History / Are Poles grateful to the Russians for winning the war? [120]


The 17th. Why?

It doesn't change the fact that you got owned in trying to deliberately inflame this thread by suggesting we give thanks to the Soviets. Come correct next time. It's not cool to despise your heritage - embrace it - it's a good one.

History / Are Poles grateful to the Russians for winning the war? [120]


Sorry, not an opinion, a fact.


Why not? You're brave enough, with your comments, to insult the memory of our ancestors who perished under the Soviets, and disrespect the members of this forum who were effected by same, behind the safety and anonymity of a computer screen, so why not go there and tell them how you feel at the Club.

History / Are Poles grateful to the Russians for winning the war? [120]


Non sequitur mate. Go on then, pop down to the Ashfield Polish Club and propose thanks to the Soviets

History / Are Poles grateful to the Russians for winning the war? [120]


Go on then, pop down to the local Polish Club in Ashfield and tell them this Otter. It makes me shudder to think that you are an Aussie with Polish parents yet you come up with comments like this. Go away and stop trolling with inflammatory comments.

History / Did British public protest against the sell out of Poland to the Soviets? [286]


There was indeed. Whilst I'm unaware of specific instances of popular protest, I understand there was a strong and vociferous minority of politicians who risked much to decry HMG's (and specifically Churchill's) policy of appeasement to the Muscovites and treatment of Poland, consequent upon HMG's acquiescence to Stalin's designs for keeping what he had gained of Polish territory (Yalta).

The more relevant back stab was, in my view, the failure of HMG to tell Poland about the critical issues materialising out of Teheran, not to mention HMG’s craven acquiescence to Stalin. The backstab is even more serious because it was in breach, and in contempt, of HMG’s obligation to tell Poland (per Art. 5 of the Treaty) of any development that would threaten Poland’s independence.

Consequently, Poland was unaware that it was to be subject to significant and prejudicial changes to its borders and socio political makeup after the dust settled on WW2.

Stalin took it to mean that HMG probably couldn’t care less about what happened to Poland post WW2. Ergo, in my view, his actions, probably commencing at around the time of the Warsaw Rising and subsequently, should have come as no surprise to HMG and probably occurred in large part due to the fact that Stalin understood he had carte blanche and jurisdiction to do as he pleased in Poland, because HMG acquiesced to his designs as articulated at Teheran. As to what the USA did (or didn’t do), it’s largely irrelevant in this context because they were not contractually bound with Poland, morality aside.

The basest treachery lies in the fact that HMG continued to use Polish forces to continue fighting even after the treachery at Teheran, when the moral and just thing to do would have been to release the Poles, given that the Poles were now fighting for everything except their own interests. But no, this didn’t occur, because to do so would have been contrary to further British interests of using Poles (arguably the best contingent under HMG’s auspices numbering in the hundreds of thousands) to shed blood and die under the false assumption that they were fighting and dying for an ally and for mutual gain.

I think it was General Gubbins who articulated, in relation to HMG’s attitude to Poland, words to the effect that “we’ll squeeze as much as we can out of them then drop them”. Even that sentiment was incorrect, because in the early months of 1945 when Anders sought release of Polish forces to fight their way back home, he was refused. Bled dry, with pennies dropping all around him, how must Anders have felt to have been refused his request.

The story of HMG’s treachery toward Poland in WW2 is that simple. I believe that had the people of Britain known what was going on at the time they would have put a stop to it.

History / 1920 Battle of Warsaw - English trailer and film [55]


Hey champ, I think we'll have to wait for this to come out on Foxtel, or go with all the babcia's/busia's down to the Polish Club to watch it.

History / The strange destiny of Antoni Aleksander Iliński [32]


Hi mate,

If memory serves, this portrait appears in the Osprey Men-at-Arms series of books, in the Polish military edition. I think the subject was an Oginski, or the leader of a mercenary Polish outfit in Western Europe, painted on his reurn to Poland circa the Swedish Wars in the 1650's, as I recall the commentary to the portrait.

I'd have to say his hat is a kolpak, progenitor of the busby and other fur trimmed cavalry hats. Cheers.

Genealogy / Kasprzak Golab looking for family history [11]

On 9 May 1944, Jozefa Kasprzak was transported with 56 other women from the Pawiak to Ravensbruck. Her fate is unknown. I'm sorry if this was a relative.

News / Who is "the enemy within" in Poland? [88]


The 'enemy within' could potentially be those expats who would fight for their natural country rather than their adopted Poland, in the event that Poland went to war with their natural country, or vice versa.

History / Poland during the Renaissance [146]


I think the point Dariusz was trying to make (and forgive me if I misunderstand you ZD), is that rather than going through a 'renaissance' per se, Poland, in essence, during the Renaissance period merely led the way in the cited disciplines, consequent upon an organic predisposition toward those being the best in those disciplines rather than as a reaction to, or by virtue of, what the renaissance was all about?


Good point. Supreme tactics unparalled at the time (say early 1500's to mid 1600's) with another resurgence (albeit limited) during the Napoleonic period.


'Tis ironic in the circumstances that said 'bashers' have referred to our good selves as the 'nasty brigade'.