History / Did British public protest against the sell out of Poland to the Soviets? [286]


Indeed. I, in particular, call for a detailed synopsis of how HMG complied with Article 5 of the Treaty after the Teheran Conference. Given that Jon has so vociferously said that the Treaty has been fulfilled, we can only assume he has full knowledge of every time an obligation was triggered then complied with.


The thing that strikes me the most about this speech (and the almost mirror terms of Art 1) is that it is an open offer - he does not caveat the type or quality of support in any way. He does not say, for example, we will offer such support to the extent of dropping leaflets, or such support will not include any form of actual combat, and so on.

Now, if at the time of making this speech (or more relevantly, at the time of the Agreement being executed), Chamberlain was aware that the assistance was to be, relatively speaking, limited, then he misrepresented the situation to Poland. If he was unaware, then he was inept.

Given the relatively short space of time between the Agreement and hostilities commencing, why would HMG not have particularised the form of assistance to be given, because surely they would have known that "all support within their power" meant not much at all, and that the quoted terms would cause Poland to rely on something that simply wasn't going to happen. Again, if they knew, then it was a deception, and if they didn't, they were inept.

Genealogy / Poland Heraldry and Nobility in names/families [59]


Hi Puzzie. For me, it's just a legend, because I don't have anything tangible to say that we are descended from these people.


I mean in the sense of their percentage, their makeup, their freedoms, their politics, dress, etc etc.


Yes, I'm aware of this, and thought it was a good idea to attract and hold a wider audience. Speaking of names, I read a post on this forum recently where a monument has been erected in Warsaw to an Indian Maharajah who adopted Polish children during WW2 - his name was shortened so as to make it easier for Poles to pronounce. Swings and roundabouts my friend ;)

Hi Gene. Some Jewish Poles were ennobled after conversion to Catholicism. I think Davies sets out the numbers, and in what years, in God's Playground.

History / The Untold Battle of Britain [205]


Ah, a dilettante on the Polish armed forces! Perhaps you could tell me how many English served in the Polish Armed Forces during WW2 prior to capitulation, and then how many subsequently served in the AK (aside from the heroic actions of John Ward of course).

Just figures mind you, no need for any comments, or opinions.

History / Did British public protest against the sell out of Poland to the Soviets? [286]


Ergo, are you then claiming that Britain did lend Poland all support in its power?


Precisely. The burden of proof has shifted, because one cannot prove a negative. It's akin to a a situation where we agree I am to give you all my money consequent on certain events, then upon the obligation being triggered I give you 5 cents, you question that, but I tell you to prove that I had more money to give you - you cannot, because only I am privy to that information.

The failure to show that information can only lead to an inference that had the information been shown, it would not have favoured HMG.

The issue would so easily be settled if the forum's HMG apologists provided that information, but they won't, because they don't have it...


Please refrain from mischievous comments (the reference to 'liberated').


Really? So you're saying that it was within the Navy's power to assist but they chose not to because it was a 'suicide mission'?

Genealogy / If your ancestors were in the "Wehrmacht"... [217]


I too loved this passage. I loved the bit where the German Captain refuses to change sides over to Bohun on the basis that he was contractually obliged to the Polish Crown, and if he did so, no-one would hire them (notwithstanding his assessment that they would die anyway due to being seriously outnumbered!). I'll have to dig out my copy now and reread it!

Genealogy / Poland Heraldry and Nobility in names/families [59]

Gday Gene, and welcome to the forum. I'm wearing a several hundred year old signet ring which has my family's herb on it. It's got crowns, shields, wings, horseshoes and arrows on it. On the sides of the ring, where it isn't too worn, it has what looks to be once elaborate baroqueish scroll work. I've got a signet stamp at home with the herb on it too.

I'm not sure when the crest was acquired/created. I can trace my ancestors back to 1583 based on the internet, and I have a copy of a family tree that was started back in the 1770's and added on til about the mid 1800's. I am aware that some of my ancestors have held senior positions in Poland and that one of my ancestors went with a small contingent of his troops to Vienna in 1683. It seems as though my family had a strong military tradition, as nearly all the family photos I have from about the mid 1800's to the 1930's have males of my line in military gear. My great great great grandfather is photographed wearing Sarmatian attire, fur kolpak, cloak and high boots included (as well as the handlebar moustache). We originated in what is now Ukraine, and bred horses there.

Legend has it that my family's genesis goes back to the early 1300's, and that we are descended from Tatars. I'll probably never know for sure though.

The Polish nobility was very different to the rest of Europe. Norman Davies gives an excellent account of this in his work "God's Playground". Cheers.

History / Ukrainian-occupied Eastern Poland [135]


Was it?

History / Ukrainian-occupied Eastern Poland [135]



You just got owned Otter.

Hipis, it had always been my understanding the Teutonic knights were invited to the area known as Prussia to assist in conquering the original Prussian inhabitants, subsequently refusing to leave, until being permitted to exist pursuant to the Prussian Homage?


Tell me about it...

He even tried to argue that szlachta weren't nobility.

As to occupation, whenever a foreign power deposits itself, its agents or its proxies, in a sovereign country to which it has no jurisdiction or consent to occupy, that is an occupation. It matters not that the occupied subsequently were forced, cajoled or entreated to set up an indigenous puppet regime (be it political or militarily), moreso, particularly where the occupying power has done so as an act of territorial aggrandisement rather than in retaliation for the occupied commencing hostilities.

If there is no legitimate and genuine consent from the occupied to be occupied, first had and obtained by the occupying power before occupation, then there is no basis upon which to try to legitimise the occupation ex post facto.

Likewise, there is no "Statute of Limitations" or similar preventing discussion on matters that occurred in the 1920's, the 1620's or indeed in any other epoch. To argue that the discussion is not relevant because of some mythical time line is no argument at all and is pure mischief.

History / Are you proud of Polish colours? [27]

I've done some googling.

There appears to be a concensus that the white colour represents peace. Red seems to represent blood shed for Poland, and/or gallantry, bravery etc.

Have a look at worldflags101.com

History / Poland: Her heroes and her traitors [214]

I've just been reading about Prince Roman Sanguszko, the Prince who walked to his exile to Siberia in the 19th Century. I think he's an heroic figure.

History / Are you proud of Polish colours? [27]


Hi Pawian. I understood the white on red symbolised a white sky over blood tinged earth? Is this right?


Does my red tie on a white shirt count?

News / Polish politics: Lessons in etiquette [15]


I think he's also credited for snatching a script out of Zamoyski's hands when he was delivering a speech in the Seym.


I think Boletus is taking the ****...

Kind of like saying "Nazi Germany - a lesson in tolerance"

History / Origins of Polish Slavs [138]

Thanks for your excellent analysis Bieganski - I enjoyed reading it and you're obviously well learned in this field. Cheers

History / Was the Polish/ Lithuanian commonwealth a European power? [111]

Merged:The Polish/Lithuanian Cth. - the greatest political/legal/religious experiment ever?

Hi all,

I've always been fascinated by the path the Commonwealth took (particularly in the C16&17) in respect of the political/legal/religious fields.

The concepts of Noble Democracy, Monarchical Republic, freedom of religion, Neminem Captivabimus, Nihil Novi, Henrican Articles, Pacta Conventa, Liberum Veto and myriad other principles and laws, have to me always been remarkable, having regard to when they took place and the fact that they were in the main, actually practiced.

The 'spirit' behind these concepts, I think, is aptly captured by King Zygmunt Jagiello, who famously uttered "I am not the King of your consciences".

Was the Commonwealth the greatest political/legal/religious experiment ever (apart from say Ancient Rome of Greece)?

News / Polish politics: Lessons in etiquette [15]

Thanks Boletus.

Your interesting dialogues bring to mind the antics of Stanislaw Stadnicki, who in the early C17 openly called the King a perjurer and a card sharper, or of the Polish Ambassador to Queen Elizabeth 1, who criticised her war with Spain as effecting Polish trade. Good to see Poles in power staying true to the antics of their predecessors!

History / Origins of Polish Slavs [138]


Hi ZTG - I always thought they originated from peoples like the Huns, Avars, Sarmatians and so on? I recall reading as a child an excellent book called "The World of the Ancient Slavs". I can't recall the author, but I recall it had discussions on origins.


Quite right. How then could one explain certain physical/appearance traits that a lot of Poles seem to have (ie high foreheads, flat back of head, high cheekbones, vampire hairline)?

Genealogy / Germanic or Polish Prussian? [3]


Hi Pete. Welcome to the forum, and good luck in ascertaining your genealogy.

Whilst I don't have any direct comments for you in relation to your queries, I strongly recommend you to read God's Playground by Norman Davies (2 Volumes). His book contains an excellent description of the Prussian partition, and life thereafter, in occupied Poland.

To understand where "Prussian's" fit into the Polish dynamic, I think you must understand the complex history. Why not have a look on Google at "Prussian homage to Poland" and Prussian partition of Poland. That will set you in the right direction.

Cheers

Life / Do Polish names generally have a meaning to them or a particular structure?. [88]


You were invited to adduce proof to back up your flawed proposition and you failed to do so. I told you that if you did, your position would be vindicated, but because of the failure of the former, the latter is extinguished. Merely asserting and professing indignation that 'semantics' and 'philosophical jargon' have been used to wrongly rebut your assumption, is, without proof of same, mischievous and disingenuous, as is your argument as a whole that Polish nobility (szlachta) were not noble by virtue of some vacuous claim by analogy to English Freemen and other nebulous and fantastic criteria.

I don't mean to be critical, but you have been outsmarted and have lost the argument.

I appreciate that you attempt to give the impression on this forum of having been everywhere and done everything, and of being a CJonfucius on all matters Polish, but wisdom (ie knowing not to defend the indefensible) is the hallmark of sagacious counsel, not acerbic wit smattered with a few droplets of anecdote and anachronisms. Go in peace to avoid further embarrassment, and learn from your mistakes.

Life / Do Polish names generally have a meaning to them or a particular structure?. [88]


It's not a pre-requisite. The status of szlachta as nobles was legally enshrined. I am unfamiliar with any Act that prescribes a member of the szlachta having to hand in their noble status due to impecunity. You are familiar with the term Golota szlachta, aren't you.

Status is a social descriptor, but szlachta were not defined by their social mobility, rather their legal one. If you can find me a piece of genuine, contemporary evidence proving your position then it is vindicated. If you cannot, then you have lost the debate.


When did he cease to be noble? Who is the arbiter and what is the benchmark test? Or is this just your opinion. In fact, it is your mere opinion because it's London to a brick that you have no evidence to back this opinion.


I'm not actually - re-reading my post, and your argument, I was misconceived in respect of Diet deputies. Do you know why?


If it was 'proven long ago', then adduce the proof. Petitio principii is apt.


No, I don't know it. You seem fairly confident it is though - why not pick it apart and show that it is nonsense, rather than merely asserting it is. You should have no trouble doing that.


Indeed it did. You're preaching to the converted. It is quite easy to point out the obvious, but a lot more difficult to properly analysis the context and causes of the decline. Why don't you tell us what caused the fall of the Cth?

Life / Do Polish names generally have a meaning to them or a particular structure?. [88]


I'm sorry, but it's not. Socio-economic standing is a corrollary to the practical trappings of nobility, not the definitive test. I'm sure that in England (and indeed elsewhere), there are nobles who live in penury. This doesn't make them any less noble.

The szlachta (noble) status of the szlachta was enshrined in legislation, documented and carried forward organically (somewhat) through tradition. It is up to you to prove they were/are not nobles, and no, this is not a Russell's teapot type request.

Again, just because you say it is, doesn't make it so, and indeed, you are stepping into the realms of petition principii.


Fallacy of composition.


You're clutching at straws. What was the role of dietine deputies?


It is fallacious to try to prove an argument as to the quality or otherwise of the subject based on hindsight. Be wary too of the fallacy of circular cause and consequence, vis a vis your reference to anarchy

Life / Do Polish names generally have a meaning to them or a particular structure?. [88]


They were nobility - res ipsa loquitur.

They also had structure and responsibilities, though these principles/concepts, or lack thereof, do not necessarily serve as the litmus test for what is or isn't noble. Whilst at all times the Polish nobility may not have enjoyed 'gentility' or 'wealth' commensurate to each other, they were, legally, all the same at all times, that is, nobility with equal legal rights. Just because they were politically and legally active does not mean that such interests were contra-indicators to their statuus as nobles.


Why an understatement? If you distill it, isn't that the only failing?


Be wary of presentism and hindsight.


I don't catch your drift.

Life / Do Polish names generally have a meaning to them or a particular structure?. [88]


Actually, it is derived from Latin/French.


You misconceive the relationship, in the Polish context, between freedoms and responsibilities. The szlachta, per se, did not seek to hamstring the imposition of responsibilites purely by virtue of the fact that they wished more 'freedom'. The freedom aspect to Constitutional policy during the Cth. had more to do with limiting absolutist, arbitrary and despotic rule of a king. They saw and foreshadowed what would happen to the Cth (as happened in England) if they allowed themselves (like the Brits) to be taken over by "Royalty". It was the Freedom to have a voice and a guiding hand in how you were governed. Sometimes the partnership worked well (Bathory), other times it didn't (Wettin).

The paramount responsibility of the szlachta (or nobility) was that of protecting Poland, or Pospolite Ruszenie, the levee en masse. Freedom and responsibility were not mutually exclusive mind you - for example; in the C15, certain 'privileges' were agreed upon for the szlachta, and given by the King, one of which was the obligation of Pospolite Ruszenie being limited to actions inside Poland. Thus, the szlachta sought to limit the King's ability to issue the call to arms and prevent involvement in the disputes of other countries.


Sorry, but it's not - a dicto simpliciter ad dictum secundum quid. It would be like saying that a frog has skin, and because humans have skin, we must be frogs too.


You ought to be disabused of your misconception. Whether you like it or not, szlachta were nobles. Sorry, but you can't change that. I would suggest a perusal of Lukowski's "Liberty's Folly". It is in depth, though elementary, and you will find it easy to understand. Relying on Carlyle will not allow an understanding of the nuances of Polish nobility and Constitutional Law.


You again misconceive and misrepresent the legal/constitutional concept of unanimity with anarchy. Please refrain from sniping and being disingenuous.


Exactly (it's good to see someone who seems to understand it). The Liberum Veto was the purest form of democracy (I acknowledge its applicability to the szlachta however). It was not an object to which failings could be ascribed. The only failing of the Polish body politic was not legislating contingency protocols for what was to happen if the Liberum Veto was enacted, and such enaction hamstrung the passing of other legislation.

To blame the Liberum Veto as some sort of vehicle for 'anarchy' is simply wrong because it is illogical, when you really sit down and think about it.


Indeed it was. At the time, it was a stupendous victory for unanimity and consent over unilateral, arbitrary despotism.

Love / Prevention of child abduction by Polish mother. [232]


Hi. Is your lawyer aware that you are on this forum posting about your legal matters? If not, it might be prudent to let her know asap.

History / Historical perspective of the relations/fear of the Bolshevik party & Poland [2]


Historically, I think the implacable animosity that Poland had toward the Muscovites/Bolsheviks (and vice versa) can be traced back to Poland's image of itself as the Bulwark of Christendom, and the notion that the Muscovites were a Eurasian horde seeking to take over Western Europe, and Poland.

Whilst neighbours, the two countries were, historically, completely different in terms of their attitudes toward government and civil liberty, amongst other things. These differences were irreconcilable. The reincarnation of Russia as the paragon of Bolshevism was merely another link in the chain of Russia's further descent to despotism and Poland's struggle to re-establish itself as a modern, democratic society. I do not think it was Bolshevism per se, but rather the fact that it was still the same old Russia but under a different political guise. Poland's victory over the Muscovites in 1920, and her subsequent failure to capitalise on same, is redolent of Poland's greatest attribute, and failing.


I would caution against gross generalisations of what the Polish Jews may or may not have done during WW2 as against Catholic Poles. There were a far greater majority of Polish Jews who served their country without fear and without regard to the fact that they were of a different faith to their fellow Poles. Let's focus on that. To focus on the minority is to afford them the attention that they do not deserve. Silent scorn is the response more richly deserved.


Children are just that - children. They shouldn't be included in any type of negative argument regarding the purported actions of their parents. Anyone who cites the actions of children in support of a negative argument against the group to which the children belong needs to look inside themselves and realise just how disgusting that type of argument is.

I'm not being critical of you here Marcin, but I simply can't stand hearing these things about children as though they have some sort of blameworthiness here.


I regret to hear that they experienced these things and hope they survived the war and flourished after it. It's always been my view that whilst it may be therapeutic to talk about these things, the best things that Poles (and those of Polish descent like myself) can do is do the best you can in your life, be honourable, be wise and just, excel professionally and remain true to those traditional virtues of the szlachta. To be the best you can be, and to be 'better' than those around you, is the truest symbol that the biological substance of Poland, no matter how far flung around the world, has survived and flourished, and the sacrifices made by our descendants have not been in vain.

History / A little reminder for those Brits that ***** about Poles [143]


Your memory does your submission a disservice. You'll have to revert to our discussions on other threads regarding Art. 1 for my position, which was, and is, contrary to what you say above. Why don't you trot along and do that, then report back to me with your findings.


Again, your memory does your submission a disservice. I actually went into some great detail about my position viz Art. 5. When challenged, you, if memory serves, said you couldn't give long posts from your "IPhone" and would respond when you arrived at your "office". I think I even gave you some example contra-indicators that you could use to try to rebut my position. We're still waiting...


I wouldn't have a clue. Perhaps you can summon to mind who it was. So as to avoid further embarrassment for yourself for another memory slip, you should probably double check before posting.


I'm confused. You said I didn't give any detail regarding "how a plan that Poland's borders would move...", but here you invite us to laugh at my assertion regarding same. How, pray tell, is one to reconcile these two seemingly contradictory submissions? Here's a little lesson for you - when you don't tell the truth, you have to rememember what it was you said that was untrue, and you, quite simply, forgot.


First you wish me a death from cancer and now you mock my handicap! In any event, my one legged postion (metaphorically speaking) is well propped up by the crutch that is your inteptitude and ham fisted attempt at argument...


Can you see the chronological fallacy inherent in your post? When was the Teheran Conference? In any event, are you suggesting that Sikorski ought to have risen from the grave, tapped Churchill's shoulder at Teheran and reminded him of his contractual obligation to advise the Polish Govt in Exile of developments at the Conference? I was unaware (though unsurprised) that prior to plying your current trade of distributing tourist flyers you were an author of children's fantasy.


When it comes to owning you on this forum, you are indeed my lucky charm. As luck would actually have it, Busia is calling me over right now for some pierogis and golumpkies.


Hi Tcat. Can I have your opinion? Do you think it was objectively just and equitable for HMG to adopt the position they did viz the Free Poles at the Parade (and just before), notwithstanding the perception that it may strain relations between Britain and the Soviets? Do you think that at the very least it was HMG (and I stress the British Government, not the British people) playing sycophant to the Soviets?

History / A little reminder for those Brits that ***** about Poles [143]


Plurium interrogationum.

The better question is to ask why HMG failed to comply with its obligations under the Treaty of Mutual Assistance. I've been waiting for you to answer this for some time Harry...

Edit below


That may be my friend, but it would have been their decision and the consequences their own to consider. The effect on morale in Warsaw when it was realised the Polish paratroopers weren't coming was severe - my dad was there, and there was so much hope pinned on this occurring, but it didn't.


I'm surprised you'd say somethin like this - it's below you.

History / Poland did reasonably well in land terms out of the postwar settlement [270]


and you my friend have done a quite reasonable job of presenting an argument based on the broken window fallacy...

USA, Canada / Polonia who needs help with Polish Documentary [27]


G'day Sakowicz, and welcome. Are you familiar at all with Ross Kemp's documentary series on gangs? He did one a while back on Polish neo nazi gangs, and there was a large element of football hooliganism there. Best of luck mate!


Start with Norman Davies' work God's Playground, and go from there.

History / Warsaw Rising 1944 - National Disaster or Triumph of Spirit ? [395]


Great post - I enjoyed reading it.

You're Irish? Are you familiar with the significant Irish contribution for Poland during the Polish Insurrection in the 1860's? It makes fascinating reading.


Nope. Can't recall where I read that. Most likely though a book on the Rising by an English author. I can't remember the name or title, but the cover jacket had a grey background with a monochrome/shadow/negative style picture of someone with their hands in the air.

I might add that after thinking more about the passage, I seem to recall that the issue was more to do with affording the AK combatant status, viz the Polish Army proper under command of HMG. I also recall that it was formulated about halfway through the Rising, after mounting pressure from the Government in Exile. Nevertheless, HMG did it, and credit is given where it is due.

History / Romantic Aristocrat Stories from Poland's Past [16]


Gday Smurf - what about the love story concerning Pan Skshetuski and Helena in Ogniem i Mieczim?


Good suggestion - Napoleon to Pani Walewska: "I see only you, I admire only you, I desire only you". If that doesn't smack of romance, then I'm a monkey's uncle!

Somewhat darker, though romantically underpinned, was King Zygmunt's devotion to his wife, Barbara Radziwill, who died young. If I recall, the grief stricken king took to wearing black after her death and never recovered.