History / Poland's General Anders and one of the biggest "What Ifs?" of WW2 [31]

Why Marek? We're not dealing in this hypothetical with a rag tag group of partisans but a disciplined and cohesive army with modern weaponry, tactical prowess and most importantly, morale and purpose.

Imagine the scenario - Anders at the Polish/German border, the AK and splinter units coalescing in Polish territory, displaced Poles in Europe flocking to the colours, unrest in the Berling Army, Bear Cub and the far flung heroes of the Rising reviving AK morale and fighting efficacy... how many more tens of thousands of hardened veterans could have been counted on to rise up again with just a whiff of having a fighting chance under a determined leadership...

Always remember what the boy-soldiers of the AK achieved in Warsaw with their bare hands and a wing and a prayer, and against some of the most vicious and hardened German soldiers that could be mustered. Ask your father or grandfather, if they were there and if they are still with us, what was achieved against seemingly insuperable odds. Ask them what they would have done had word of Anders' coming with a vengeance reached Poland. The spirit and will was still there my friend.

History / Yalta Conference and Poland [78]


Your point is in fact not such a simple one, and it is misleading because you've failed to give context (whether deliberately or through naivety) to Sikorski's postulation, as follows:

1. The 'pragmatism' of the proposed boundary was only theoretically pragmatic to all parties because it was made in contemplation of Poland emerging from WW2 as a sovereign and free nation, as well as on the basis that the USSR would leave Poland alone.

2 Ergo, Sikorski's proposed demarche was made on the basis that in return for territory a rapprochement with the USSR would be the consideration, along with Poland's sovereignty guaranteed (plus of course German territory in compensation).

3. Your bald assertion, taken at face value, suggests and presupposes that Sikorski would give away territory dear to Poland in exchange for no consideration from the USSR - this is, to say the least, far fetched.

4. A parable? I'm not getting on with my neighbour so in an effort to heal the rift I propose to give my neighbour my vehicle in exchange for my neighbour leaving me the heck alone and not trying to steal my stuff. I tell my 'friends' of my intentions. I become incapacitated and my neighbour takes it from me, when my 'friends' are watching, and also takes my house, rapes my wife, forces my children into servitude and steals my grandad's war medals. My 'friends' later justified the transaction by saying I told them I intended to part company with my car anyway thus the result was inevitable - they just 'forgot' what I expected in return but didn't want to step on my neighbours toes. Realpolitik doesn't make it right. Puts a different spin on it, doesn't it Sjam.

The 'reality' you suggest was not a consequence of Sikorki's proposal, nor was it 'inevitable', nor a justification per se, but don't let that get in the way of your arguments.


Indeed. I've found that one should exercise caution when saying these types of maxims lest the obvious occur. I've got one too however - people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones :-))))))))))))))))))))))


Aarrghh me hearty - wouldn't the more appropriate metaphor have been poking the parrot with a cutlass?

Pray tell, in all seriousness, what you mean by poking the Russians. A piece of eight to you if you come up with one example that justifies Poland getting the metaphoric bite.


Not at all - that is unrealistic and I don't believe that was the expectation. I believe that the grievance lies in the diplomatic arena.

I've commented substantially elsewhere in this forum on my thoughts there and as far as I know, my assumptions remain unchallenged and prevail. Those posts are mainly in my thread "What did Poland get out of the wars and struggles for others" and discuss the Teheran Conference, estoppel, balance sheets of contributions and other such things. I'm sorry but I don't intend searching then cutting and pasting my old comments but you should be able to find them using the 'search' tool if you're interested in having a read. I'd welcome a serious challenge to my theories.....anyone?


Can we please have the entire dialogue if possible? I can't imagine that the Marshall would have walked up, said just those words, then departed. Perhaps what was said before and after will give context and meaning and settle this 'quandary'.

History / Polish military in 1939 in pictures. [106]


That's kind of like the way you pretended to ignore me when I confronted you with my factual knowledge and you instead chose to post lies, like you did with Dowding's comments and my anecdote on the cavalry skirmish. It makes me wonder how many more lies you've posted on this forum that aren't as easy to verify and refute...


then onto Great Britain where without future recompense but on the (subsequently incorrect) understanding that as HMG's first ally they wouldn't later be betrayed (and would indeed be assisted in kind), fought for HMG's government from the BoB until the last shot of WW2 and then under the very gaze of HMG marched back to Poland where payment in full courtesy of the Teheran Conference (and indeed probably other 'deals' that we will never know about but can rightly speculate on) manifested with either a further march to the Gulag, a show trial then a hanging by piano wire (or if lucky a shot to the nape), suicide, judicial murder, and at the very least, life under a totalitarian regime for the next 50 odd years. Poland having fast tanks didn't really serve it well in the end, did it?

General Gubbins, in aptly describing HMG attititude toward, and use of, Poland, said "Of course, they'll simply be dropped overboard. We expect to squeeze as much as we can out of them, and then we'll drop them".

Prophetic indeed, and it allows one's lines of enquiry to ask of HMG - who knew that Poland was to be used in that fashion, was it conscionable and morally just, when was it first known, and why did the people who did know not do anything to stop it, or, at the very least, tell 'Poland' so that its government and executive could have made a decision on whether or not it was worthwhile to continue fighting for an 'ally' who at the end intended to cast them adrift.

History / Polish military in 1939 in pictures. [106]


It may have been, but I think it unlikely this skirmish made it into any history books.

It was told to me by a friend quite a few years ago. The Polish uhlan who was involved in the skirmish was his neighbour during his childhood in Australia. It was this man's stories on his experiences in WW2 that fostered my friend's interests in all things Polish.

From what I was told, the skirmish occurred after a chance meeting between a Polish and German patrol, with both units being fairly small in size (probably a dozen to 20 each side). It could have been during the battle of Bzura, which would have been a likely place and time, but I wasn't told where or if I was I have forgotten it. All I know is that it happened in the first few days of the war. I've lost track of my freind but if I can track him down I'll try and get further details and post them. What was interesting to me was the fact that the uhlans did not use their lances in the charge but went in with sabres. Presumably, that was to do with etiquette and honour (the Gerries didn't have lances), or a sense of superiority.


This seems to accord with what I was told regarding both sides in the skirmish that I related being given time to form up and then charge - in this case, it was obviously not communicated verbally, but both sides on seeing each other stopped, surveyed the other, then formed up. It's akin to the anecdotes of both German and Polish pilots over Poland who extended courtesies and chivalric conduct to their opponent when they were shot down (see for example A. Zamoyski's 'The Forgotten Few'). This of course died shortly after the greater air combat commenced.

Anyone of Polish lineage on the forum who had (or have) family who were uhlans would no doubt relate to the notions of 'chivalry' that were retained by some Polish uhlans in combat. On the other hand, some of those forum members who have absolutely no link with anything regarding Poland except to live there but criticise it will of course have no idea of what I'm talking about.

History / Polish military in 1939 in pictures. [106]


Thanks a lot for posting all these really cool pictures - I've enjoyed them.

I have some intersting 'on field' pictures of my grandad taken just prior to the outbreak of the war which if I can find I'll try to post. One of the most interesting ones is him in full dress uniform pushing a wheel barrow next to what I think were some very round and high embrasures.

Do you have any more pictures of Polish cavalry in action?

Cheers, Dan


Whilst the material I've read suggesat that the above appears to have been a myth created by an Italian journalist at the front, I've been told of a skirmish in the first few days of WW2 where a small squadron of Polish cavalry met an equal sized squad of German cavalry on an opposing hill. They both eyed each other off and allowed each other the courtesy to form up. They then charged each other with sabres and the cavalry man who relayed the story said the Gerries fled in the first clash but after he took down one German with a cut from the top of the collar bone down to the chest - stirring stuff!

History / WWII - who really was the first to help Poland? [901]


IMO, the issue is not really who was the first to help, because that's academic, but who was involved in the betrayal and backstab of Poland in the ensuing years of WW2. The focus seems to be on a purported lack of 'positive' action, but I think more scrutiny should be given to the passivity, or lack of action, vis the West and in particular GB.

That more relevant issue can be distilled down to the fact that Poland, or more correctly, its emigre military forces under the de facto leadership of GB, were used by GB whilst GB was in full knowledge that Poland per se would cease to exist after hostilities ceased because Soviet Russia was permitted to swallow Poland.

I have expanded on this contention in my various posts under the thread "What did Poland get out of the wars and struggles for others". That contention has remained unchallenged and in my opinion, goes to the heart of "Poland's" grievance towards the West, but more particularly GB.

Cheers

Genealogy / Polish looks? [1462]


Forgive my familiarity with you, but you do indeed look very Spanish. FYI - you are almost a dead ringer for my missus (who's Spanish) in the top pic of you next to the river. Perhaps you have the ancestry? A Polish legionnaire in the Napoleonic Wars who took a Spanish donia back to Poland with him.....?

History / Polish weapons and militaria - got any? [153]


This is indeed a revelation. Any chance of posting copies of the papers?

Many thanks for the info - I'll have to do some of my own research now.

Perhaps this theme is worthy of a new thread?

Cheers, Dan

History / Polish weapons and militaria - got any? [153]


How are you champ? Haven't seen you in quite some time. What's kept you away?

UK, Ireland / Britain... What the Poles did for us. [444]


Largely wrong - where did you source this misconception? Probably from your school days eh?

You should read 'The Forgotten Few' by Zamoyski - it'll put you right on the facts.

For what the Poles gained out of assisting the Poms in BoB, they probably should have stayed out of it.


Cool avatar mate. Relative? What rank and military arm?

News / GERMANS WANT TO GERMANIZE KOPERNIK (COPERNICUS)! OUTRAGE! [1016]


You're obsessed - but that's just me. Haven't seen you in ages Harry -good to see you back!

History / "Poland's Concentration Camp" ?? [570]

Still angry about getting smashed in this debate Harry? Clearly so. You haven't flung any **** back at me - you didn't come even close. I'm growing bored with you Harry - I expected more, you being an author and all.


If memory serves me correctly, there were some discussions had on the forum several months ago about a piece of Polish legislation making it unlawful to make spurious allegations about Poland.

Word to the wise - might be worthwhile hunting that thread down. Do have a good evening whilst doing so.

History / "Poland's Concentration Camp" ?? [570]


I pity you if you fell the need to start making physical threats and all the other nasty personal stuff. It shows that you're angry, upset and humiliated, and quite rightly so.

There are other ways to lash out though. I saw a show the other day where people were punching pillows to express their anger and frustration. Another physical outlet could be jogging on a treadmill, or riding really fast on an exercise bike - either one is well suited to someone who wants to make a lot of hot air but not really go anywhere.

History / "Poland's Concentration Camp" ?? [570]


Gotta laugh at you mate - there's nothing more fake or absurd than internet bravado from a non entity who has been thoroughly trounced, ridiculed, mocked and ousted to the nether regions of unimportance and hypocrisy. Keep trying Harry - you know you're yesterday's news.

History / "Poland's Concentration Camp" ?? [570]


He was named after an AK comrade of his father who was killed by the Jerries. Perhaps he can't read English too well??

History / "Poland's Concentration Camp" ?? [570]


It has nothing to do with any sort of obsession. You could clear it up quite easily by telling us where you're from. Again, you draw a conclusion based on nothing. This is getting bizarre.


When did the argument switch to pre war 'camps'? Can't you digest what I have said about responsibility and blame apportionment?


So what? Is this what you're all upset about? We're sorry Harry - please forgive. Relative to the atrocious things other countries were doing at the time, I don't think too much sleep will be lost.


Nice attempt to obfuscate Harry. Off topic entirely and a bit like comparing apples with lemons too. Hhmm - deaths of several millions of people through a systematic campaign of annihilation v. prison camps: well, you see the difference. Disingenuousness in the extreme.


See above. You want to argue these points, start a new thread. I'll be happy to oblige. Metaphysical debates are great.


Again, you shift the boundaries, and then use the new boundaries to cry foul and push an argument on a slant that wasn't being discussed. Lame. Have some self respect.

Repeating - that's all you're good for. BIG DEAL.


Well, you've been bested by a brat in pampers then, haven't you. Thanks for the free ammunition on that one mate.


And it's an experience I'm sure you'll learn from - just call me Doogie Howser - smartest kid on the planet.

Don't mean to offend Harry, but further comment is just trammeling old ground.

Now, back to your tourist flyers Harry. The Warsaw tourist kiosk is out of your black and white photocopied , 20 point font, misspelt, wonky formatted, dot matrix printed, British stag party guides. I have it on good authority that the last 9 of 10 that you left there 2 years ago were used to scrape the dog excrement off a passing drifter's shoe - apparently, that's all they were good for.

History / "Poland's Concentration Camp" ?? [570]


In the absence of any indication, and based on your veiled comments as to your mysterious persona, one's only left to assume - I still say you're a Pom. Or perhaps you're an Aussie, seeing as you 'hold' a passport. Whatever.

I don't need to paint you as a bigot. I merely pointed it out to you, as your words here convey it plainly. You're a bigot for your own beliefs and a bigot against Poland and more particularly against it's people.

The issue isn't about the 'facts' you post, because that's not what you're doing. You are making allegations and cherry picking to suit your contentions.


Your admissions on other issues have nothing to do with your position on Poland, so what's your point? The above argument is akin to saying "I have Jewish friends, therefore I can't be anti semitic".


You say the Polish people have to take responsibility for these so called concentration camps. I point out that the prisons were run by the communists. Communism had no popular backing - it was enforced by an alien power, and facilitated by a minority of "Polish" scumbags. Polish people can't be held responsible for it - it's anathema to the concept of popular government. Your argument might have held some water if it was a democratic government at the time, but it wasn't, the implication being that the individual is responsible in a notional sense for the actions (good or bad) of the government they elected.

Your argument may also have held some water if you had pointed out any benefit derived to the Polish people in general, with such benefits had by virtue of the operation of the camps - the rationale being that you profit from misery, you be responsible when called to account. This didn't happen either, did it Harry.

I confirm your argument is trumped, unless you can counter my proposition.


Oh - so now you're the mouthpiece of the US Congress Library and of Norman Davies. I shudder at your lack of shame. Norman Davies at least has the academic impartiality to temper his contentions with historical context.


As I've said before, facts without analysis and context mean nothing. Facts, when you mesh them with opinions, as you've done to create your own agenda, lose their authority and meaning.

For example: - FACT- camps in Poland post WW2. OPINION - Polish people must be responsible for that.

All I've done is counter your opinion with facts of my own - I don't need to challenge your 'facts'. You'd have to agree opinions give way to facts.


My FACT: the Australian Prime Minister and Labour government recently apologised to the aboriginals in a lengthy and pretty exhaustive "sorry" speech.

FACT: the Aboriginal population enjoys a degree of autonomy to conduct their own affairs. They have legal remedies if they are of the view that they are suffering from oppression. True it is to say that the High Court said that their traditional land ownership rights under customary law must give way if they impinge on the Common Law of Australia.

My OPINION: Sure, there may be elements of supression, but because you failed to give me any FACTS to support your OPINION on this point, I could be here forever speculating and assuming what you mean - this is an issue we've had before, isn't it Harry?

Your FACTS: Nil

Your OPINION: Aussie's are racist and by reason of my remaining here, me too.


Need I?


I don't have the means or opportunity to do so unfortunately. The 'war' I 'fight' is against people such as yourselves. You attack, I defend. Your petty, yet quite poisonous, insults and allegations against Poles are not to my taste. When all is said and done, history is all that's left, and I don't want some kid who comes on here to research his/her heritage to read comments from you or your ilk and take them at face value.

History / "Poland's Concentration Camp" ?? [570]


You've been trumped and your arguments are now becoming tiresome and desperate Harry. Many people here have shown you up for the sensationalist and virulent bigot you are.

You're a smart guy - my post was pretty clear and you know the answers, though the questions you posed are tangential to the nub of my proposition (we all know obtuse responses are a sign of evasion so you fool no one).

History / "Poland's Concentration Camp" ?? [570]


Because deep down he admires the Poles and he knows he can never be one, so he finds what he can in his spare time to 'shock' us with. Harry is a spiteful Pom who I suspect somewhere in his past was jilted by a Pole and this is his 'revenge' - and how sweet it is too - trying to get us all afret about Polish concentration camps.


you need a girlfriend (it'll focus your mind on other things), but judging by the way you speak to ladies on this forum that'll be difficult.

In any event, no one here has to admit anything about your so called concentration camps, least not to you. They had nothing to do with you, your family aren't Polish, and you certainly don't qualify as a person to whom recognisance should be delivered.

Here's a lesson for you - when you address Poles, do so with respect, and especially when addressing females, because Poles, unlike your kith and kin, treat women with respect no matter what.

Here's another one - if you want recognisance, address it to the people who should be giving it. Dunno about your line of thinking, but it's pretty clear to me there aren't any Polish commo apparatchiks here.

Here's the last one - communism was forced onto Poland. No popular mandate equals no popular liability, no matter how hard you try. Simple really. Polish blame shifting you say? Could be, but as a legal/political nuance, it outflanks your proposition.

Facts taken in isolation mean nothing - try contextual analysis. Sorry - forgot you don't need to when writing penny a pound tourist flyers.

History / Polish 304 SQUADRON IN THE RAF IN WW2 - Davidstow in Cornwall [16]


Welcome to the forum my friend and thank you for the kind words. You could try the book 'The Forgotten Few' by Adam Zamoyski -excellent anecdotes, statistics and postscripts on what happened to some of the Polish BoB pilots.

History / Polish hatred towards Jews... [1290]


Hi Miranda - forgive me for being a smart ass, but primary sources are eye witness or contemporary accounts and secoondary sources are made after the fact by historians etc.

History / Polish hatred towards Jews... [1290]


Gday Darius,

That's despicable - I honestly don't know what else to say. There's probably scores of honest and upright persons such as your aunt who have similar anecdotes, but as she did, they choose to press on with their lives and not raise a fuss - but szlachta are cut from a different cloth.


Could be. Or she read the same book I did. An Aussie author wrote a book about the Jews under Polish rule. There were several eyewitness accounts relating similar stories - people watching the ghetto burn. The context in which they relayed this detail was such that you felt as though the witnesses should have jumped the fence and started fighting as well.

There was a documentary a few years ago made by an Aussie comedian who calls himself "Austen Tatious". He's apparently of Polish/Jewish descent (I think his name was Glichman). He went to Poland to 'trace his roots'. He was quite angry towards the Polish, blaming them for the demise of his family and for taking his family's possessions during the war.

He went to the apartments where his family once lived, and on camera, stood in the atrium and started screaming out for his grandparents. Some old people came out to see what was going on, and told him his grandparents had left long ago. He was a strange man.

UK, Ireland / I have concerns over the British immigration policy so I wrote to my MP. [126]


Ditto -you obviously didnt understand the context of my post - reread before jumping in, as you're wont to do.

History / Polish hatred towards Jews... [1290]

I saw an interesting program on the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising. I understand it was their 65th anniversary on Saturday - RIP to all the heroes who perished in their struggle.

What saddened me was the blatant hatred toward the Poles expressed by the Jews interviewed. One old lady, a Jewish insurgent, when asked about the worst thing she experienced, replied: seeing the little Polish children on a swing set watching the ghetto burn. Strange. Imagine having all that hatred built up for all these years over seeing children watch a fire.

Comments like this lead me to believe that there's something not right with some of these people.

It was strange listening to these comments, then watching the Polish government's memorial to the uprising - who really hates who?

UK, Ireland / I have concerns over the British immigration policy so I wrote to my MP. [126]


Ha ha. Perhaps you could also write a letter to your local MP Espana (on the influx of Brits) - the irony would be delicious.

I see from Mr H's posts a strong tinge of racism - why? Because it was reported back to him that the immigrants are filling the gaps created by the immigrating Brits. It's an equilibrium really.

UK, Ireland / A collection of noimmigration's threads or "STAY AWAY from BRITAIN" [978]

Why is everyone ragging on Lukasz? In my view, he's a productive members of this forum, and always give good information and assistance with questions.


He actually has posted a picture.

History / Polish weapons and militaria - got any? [153]


Yes. I was more interested in the stories behind the items rather than actually purchasing something from someone who probably has no idea about the provenance.

History / Polish weapons and militaria - got any? [153]


Yeah, I'm aware of that issue. As I set out, I didnt want my thread to become a Nazi junk swap meet, that's all. Cheers

PS - did you have any further thoughts on my 'warhammer'.

History / Polish weapons and militaria - got any? [153]


Sorry mate if I jumped down ya throat - didnt want this thread turning into a Nazi memorabilia flea market, that's all (plus I despise Nazi memorabilia).


I'm not sure. From memory, the shaft is about 3 foot long of some type of greyish hardwood. The head was about 8 inches tip to tip, and had an axe type on on side and a hammer on the other. I also now recall another inscription nailed to the handle that said (trans) 'only in the greatest need'. I'll try to dig it out.


Wow, sounds great - any chance of posting some pictures??