News / "It's too late for Germany" (but not for Poland) [1798]


This is not about discrediting someone. If you vote for a party whose leadership consists of antisemites, Holocaust deniers and Reichsbürger-sympathizers you should take a hard look on what you personally stand for.


Those were hardly visible and did not play a mayor part in mobilizing the people, unlike the mob which shouted Ausländer raus. Anyone who went with those made no secret about his opinions.

News / "It's too late for Germany" (but not for Poland) [1798]


So what. Should we have federal elections every 6 months? I am sure you see how impractical this would be. The people had their vote and they decided to not back the AfD.


I am not surprised. The CDU in Saxony bears a lot of responsibility for this. For years they have been publically talking down the danger of right-wing extremism, and even after Chemnitz the Ministerpräsident has tried to appease to to the mob. Appeasement never works, you just add legitimacy to their demands. Leipzig showed that you can defeat them by actively engaging with them.

News / "It's too late for Germany" (but not for Poland) [1798]


Yes they are. The refugees are not really the issue here, they are simply used as an excuse by those who always wanted to change the country profoundly to their liking. Before that they demanded the death penalty for paedophiles, forced castration and so on. They point to criminal refugees and demand that we compromise on our principles, and if they we do, they'll demand more and more. The real danger is that too many people believe their lies and panicked rhetoric. There is no need for any knee-jerk reaction here, especially because all necessary steps have either been taken or are about to be implemented.


The people got a vote one year ago. The party who exclusively concentrated on the refugee crisis received 15%.

News / "It's too late for Germany" (but not for Poland) [1798]

Those ideals are worth risking everything for. I have confidence that most Germans are sane enough to stay away from the AfD, and what happens in the USA and the UK will serve as a good warning.

News / "It's too late for Germany" (but not for Poland) [1798]

@Dirk diggler

1. The idea behind the asylum law was never to attract skilled foreigners, but applying the lessons of WWII in granting people a safe heaven from persecution. Of course there is only so much a country can realistically do, but 20bn are hardly an impossible amount of money for money. In fact, the spend money is no viable argument at all, because if Germany had implemented the Hungary solution, effectively ending free movement, it would have cost us just as much if not more (and unlike the money spend on refugees, it would not have spend in Germany). There is a reason why not even the new government in Austria has not done the same, because it would place a heavy burden on them.

And there is a very real problem with many Eastern Europeans who emigrate to Germany in order to live off welfare. Not the majority of course, but enough that Berlin is now trying to change the laws to adress the problems.

Furthermore refugees receive only a fraction of the money you seem to imagine.

infomigrants.net/en/post/5049/how-much-money-do-refugees-in-germany-get

News / "It's too late for Germany" (but not for Poland) [1798]

@ Dirk: The claim about muslims in prisons is just another lie.

google.de/amp/s/www.adamsmith.org/blog/are-70-of-frances-prison-inmates-muslims%3fformat=amp

It is getting tiresome to respond to your posts, because you are using so many lies and deliberate misinterpretation which thoroughly discredit the points you are making. How can you still trust your media sources when they feed you so many misinformations?

How can you claim that Germany is wrecked by terror and rape, when heavy crime is in fact decreasing from an overall very low number per citizen? Again step back and reflect on what you are actually writing.

@Dirk diggler

Muslim migrants who have been staying longer in our country are working in all parts of our society. Coincidently the group of migrants who are most likely to live from social benefits are Eastern Europeans, especially Romanians.

The refugees are usually not long enough in Germany to work. However there have been some very promising projects where refugees are trained to work in nursing homes. Indeed our government will hopefully offer further incentives for them to get an apprenticeship there.

News / "It's too late for Germany" (but not for Poland) [1798]

Indeed, most of the low-wage jobs are done by foreigners in Germany. Our agricalture industry for example depends on migrants from Eastern Europe, particulary Poland. As does our nursing homes for the elderly.

News / "It's too late for Germany" (but not for Poland) [1798]


I am not exactly in a better position to talk to them then you are. The argument itself is not wrong, those countries are indeed not safe for LBGT, but since few refugees actually claim to be LBGT, it would be better show more flexibility on this point. Though I suspect that this will have little influence in reality, since the countries in question are usually stalling the deportations.

@Dirk


Burglaries are the crimes that damage your own sense of security the most. You don't feel safe in your own home anymore. And those happen many more times than any other crimes.


Dirk, you should take a step back and consider what you are writing here. Your phrases could be taken word for word out of any Goebbels' speech about jews. We are talking about perhaps 1.000.000 people. If we are really stretching it, 10.000. are criminals. You are effectively calling 990.000 scum for no reason.

News / "It's too late for Germany" (but not for Poland) [1798]

@BB That reminds me of another stereotype many East Germans seem to have. They are for example convinced that Western Germany, and NRW in particular is more unsafe than other areas, when in truth East Germany is statistically unsafer than the rest of the country. There are no doubt poorer areas than others, but it is not like the whole of Berlin is like the Görlitzer Park. ;)

News / "It's too late for Germany" (but not for Poland) [1798]


Roughly half of them do have a legitimate claim for asylum, so make it half of that. 12bn is still money that could be spend elsewhere, but it is not really that much in the grand scheme of things. And since most of that money is spend in Germany for translators, food et al it serves as a small domestic stimulus. The government should do more to cut costs and decrease the time needed to process an application, but they are already doing this.

Dirk, your problem is that you have a completely perverted picture of Western Europe and Germany. You can't keep generalizing exceptions like this. Women are for example much less likely to become a victim in Germany than in the USA. And the vast majority of refugees are law-abiding people, it is just small percentage that causes problems. It is really frustrating to argue with you, because it is obvious how much you have been fed far right propaganda, but try and think a bit about what you write. This is the same as me claiming that the USA experiencing a civil war, because of mass shooting incidents. Arm sells are after all on an all-time high. Would this claim be a reasonable description of the current state of the EU.

PS: To be honest, one of the many shortcomings of the AfD is that they do not offer any solution. I just read their party program, and it does not offer anything substantial on how to decrease migration. And the proposals they do make would never get past Karlsruhe.

News / "It's too late for Germany" (but not for Poland) [1798]


Because there is usually a birth certificate that proves his age without any reasonable doubt. The problem is, that there are often no birth certificates available for refugees, this is a technical issue, not a legal one.


That would be the biggest possible mistake. The CDU is already in the middle, and is attractive to the group of voters that is likely to gain in size and influence in the future. Why would anyone sacrifice this just to try and get back voters who do not really care about conservative values, and instead vote for xenophobic reasons. The only thing that the CDU should remember is its' identity as a Christian party. Merkel was in 2015 after all obe of the few politicians, who lived up to those values.


Sure, but principles like burden of proof are, no mattet what the mob on the street says. ;)


As I pointed out to you once, this number is misleading. This is simply the federal budget for education, which is only a fraction of the total expenditure on education. 90% of the money is spend by the regional governments, which is in total between 150-200bn.

@BB


Very unlikely. The GDR build the wall because it could not afford to lose more and more, often highly qualified people to the West. The GDR eventually collapsed because of economic reasons (everything about the fate of the GDR was down to economies. The GDR was de facto bankrupt since 1988, and the SED knew this. Reunification only happened the way it did because the SU was broke too and the FRG was the only entity with enough money to spare) and not building the wall would have seen her bleed out sooner.

@Dirk
As for the rest of your rant, this is as usual nonsense. You can only sentence someone in Germany (which is probably the same in the USA) if you can prove his guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. Most of the culprits in Cologne went free because there was no substantial evidence against them, often the victims themselves did not recognize them, which is not surprising considering it was night and all. The guy in Kendel claimed to be 17 years old, and the prosecution could not prove him wrong. In dubio pro reo.

Most of the deportations fail because their home countries refuse to take them back, or only process their applications very slowly. There is very little we can do about this.

News / "It's too late for Germany" (but not for Poland) [1798]

@Bratwurst Boy


True, it would be indeee to accept that if there were such laws, but since there aren't such laws, this is a moot point. Foreigners are judged by the same universal principles as Germans are.


That is mostly a myth that has often been cited as some sort of excuse by former CDU voters. Aside from the fact that the AfD has no coherent party program in many areas (which its' leadership freely admits), many of its defined demands would have been at odds of the CDU even 20 years ago. The CDU was always for deeper European integration and the Euro. The EU wants to abolish the Euro and loosen the integration in the EU. The was the main advocate of Westbindung, the AfD wants an alignment with Russia. The only thing they might have had in common was their attitude towards gays, but this is hardly a key point.


Possibly but I am more optimistic about this. There are already many people in place to carry on her legacy, most notably Kramp-Karrenhauer.


Perhaps, and I would not mind it if article 16 of the GG would be either abolished or drastically changed.

News / "It's too late for Germany" (but not for Poland) [1798]


Because the GDR only respected those laws as long as it was convenient for the party.


The party violated their own constitution and laws constantly.


This is not about a specific law. This is about the principles without which you can not have proper rule of law.


So far it has been proven to be resilient. It is certainly the best system we ever had in Germany, and no one has ever come with a better alternative.


Not their laws. Our laws. We are living in a democracy. The problem is that many East Germans have yet to fully understand its' principles.

See post 283 for some valuable information


Perhaps, but there is nothing we can do about this. It is not like this is a new trend, East Germans tend to cast their votes on the fringe. Before the AfD, votes went to the successor party of the SED, or the NPD.

All we need to do is wait. The refugee crisis drop off the radar in the coming years, and once Merkel retires, the far right will lose the enemy that united them. Those who are still fundamentally decent voters will return to the fold, and those who don't are lost anyway.

However, it might be prudent to implement changes in how we select our civil servants. Anyone who is a member of a far-right- or left-wing organization or party, should not be allowed to enjoy the privileges as a civil servant. They are oath-bound to defent the constitution after all, and it is hardly credible if you deny the constitution.

News / "It's too late for Germany" (but not for Poland) [1798]


I am talking about judgements in general. It is up to an impartial judge who knows the whole story to pass judgement, not people on the streets who won't be satisfied either way.

Our law is guided by principles for very good reasons. Sometimes it can happen that because of them, culprits go unpunished or without serious punishment, ( e.g. the case of Lolita Brieger), but breaking those principles would detrimental to us all. I must say, I find it strange that many East Germans are so quick to disregard this. They of all people should treasure the ability in finally living under the rule of law.

News / "It's too late for Germany" (but not for Poland) [1798]


Only if the evidence justifies it, which in this case, it did not. The prosecution could not prove that he was definitely above 18 years old, so we have to accept this.


On the contrary, this judgement confirms that the rule of law is still uphold in Germany. Punishment and judgement are up to judges, not the mob in the street.


There are in fact many people trying to subvert the rule of law. Any AfD voter for example. Because what the AfD demands is in violation of every principle of the rule of law.

This is not the first the time the FRG experiences this kind of crisis. During the RAF terror campagn, many people called for more severe punishments, for the state to break its' own principles in order to deal with them. But sanity prevailed which is why the RAF was eventually defeated on every level. We are now experiencing a similar situation, and I hope that we can once again prevail the same way.

News / "It's too late for Germany" (but not for Poland) [1798]


Who do you mean? The guy in Freiburg lied about his age, was judged as an adult and received the highest possible penalty. His crimes are despicable, but it is not a case that can be described as undue lenient.

The guy in Kendel was judged as a teenager, because that is what he is (unless proven otherwise). Again no undue leniency, but simply following the law. Would you be satisfied if he received ten years instead of eight?

News / "It's too late for Germany" (but not for Poland) [1798]


His lawyer expects him to at least.


Not much you can do about this when their home countries refuse to give them papers. Our government has excerted some pressure already, but our tools are limited in those cases. Afghanistan and Iraq seem to cooperate by now, so the guy who killed the girl should be deported.


Her murderer was not due to leave the country though.


Berufsbedingt ;)


I don't, because the US justice system is highly disfunctional. It doesn't provide more safety, produces additional costs because of its' many prisoners. It does somewhat satisfy a crude thirst for revenge, but that is no criteria for a modern justice system. Otherwise we would still be publically executing criminals.


Perhaps he'll get more if the prosecution prevails, but I guess some would not be satisfied even if he got the full maximum penalty possible. There are good reasons why minors are not judged like adults, and he is to be judged like any German would be in his case.

Cut down on the number of quotes please.

News / "It's too late for Germany" (but not for Poland) [1798]

Of course, why do you ask?

News / "It's too late for Germany" (but not for Poland) [1798]

@Dirk diggler

What are you even complaining about? The culprit will serve his time and then be deported. You are still not making any sense.

News / Poland's "historical path" is that of "fascism" (Jew attack alert) [43]


Well, we tried, but this is nothing that can be solved quickly. The East Germans have lived under two xenophobic (the GDR was also very encouraging in this regard) dictatorships for 57 years. This is no legacy that can be stamped out quickly.

This wave of xenophobia is very concerning, because it is only a matter of time until other groups are targeted. Many claims against refugees could just as easily be used against e.g. Eastern Europeans.

Life / How's the life of an LGBT person in Poland? [90]

It also depends on where you are planning on living. Since you wish to study there, you probably intent to love in one of the bigger city, which are usually more progressive. Slupsk has even a gay mayor.

Life / How's the life of an LGBT person in Poland? [90]


No, I am simply rational. There is no rational argument why LBGT should not enjoy those things. Unless you believe that holding hands is simply inappropiate and should not be done by hetero couples in the open as well.


I wish it was amusing, but unfortunately it is the reality of things. This has nothing to do with ethicity and nationality, it is simply the consequence of Eastern Europe having lived under dictatorships until fairly recently. It is only to be expected that those societies need time to mature.

Life / How's the life of an LGBT person in Poland? [90]

It was not intented as weird. LBGT are perfectly entitled to e.g. holding hands in public like any hetero couple.

Life / How's the life of an LGBT person in Poland? [90]


True, but most definitely regarding LBGT rights. The fact that Eastern Europeans are unusually often involved on attacks against LBGT in Germany is an indication that there is still a lot of room for improvement.

Life / How's the life of an LGBT person in Poland? [90]

Well, we must show some patience with Poland (and Eastern Europeans in general). They are not mature democracies yet, and sadly, and thus sadly, there acceptance of LBGT is still underdeveloped. It is just a matter of time until this changes though, each generation will be more accepting to this then the last.

Life / How's the life of an LGBT person in Poland? [90]

LBGT couples should act like any other hetero couple. No more, no less, and that is what they do in my experience.

Life / How's the life of an LGBT person in Poland? [90]


Nobody should be afraid to show his sexuality in any modern society. Though sadly Poland seems to be somewhat lacking behind Western Europe, so I would advocate some caution.

News / EU confirms it will take action against Poland over court reforms [554]

They also need to be elcted by a 2/3 majority.

UK, Ireland / No Poles Allowed! - Latest Polonophobic Outrage Out of Britain [660]

Indeed. And the Chinese government likes to remind their people of the time of humiliation inflicted by the Europeans. Europe is at the crossroad and the EU is the only chance we have to stay relevant and prosperous. Or the small European countries will become pawns in the game of the large giants from Asia. United we stand. Or divided we fall.

UK, Ireland / No Poles Allowed! - Latest Polonophobic Outrage Out of Britain [660]


This is utterly ridiculous and completely ahistorical.

The Persian Empire for example was head and shoulders above anything during its' time in terms of power and sophistication. The Greeks were just a bunch of pitiful citiystates compared to it, and not more of an annoyance for most of its' time. The Greeks had sone great philosophers, but the Persians were the ones making great inventions et al (e.g. the calendar).

The Romans had a more than worthy opponent with tge Sassanids, and their successor were the one opponent they could never beat. The Middle Ages were a truly backwarda time, when Europeans were living in the ruins of the Romans. Meanwhile the Arabs experiwnced an golden age. We know from travel locks that Europeans who visited the ME felt embarassed about their inferiority. The Ottoman Empire was ahead of all Europeans for centuries. The Mongols were basically unstoppable, and only the timely death of the Khan saved central Europe from them. Indeed, many scholars contribute the rise of the West partly to the weakening of the East by the Mongols, who destroyed cities like Bagdad that dwarved anything in Europe.

And all of that leaves out China, that was more prosperous for most of its' hostory. It leaves out the people in Southern America that build large cities in the oth century when you could only find ruins in Europe. I could go on, but your point is simply ludicrous. This is not up for debate, but accepted by historians. In any book written about the rise of the West, it is acknowledged that the West was until perhaps the late 18th century not very special. Their are studies showing that until the Industriam revolution, Europe's trade output was awfully small compared to the rest if the world.