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Posts by Galloglaich  

Joined: 26 Aug 2010 / Male ♂
Last Post: 2 Jan 2014
Threads: 3
Posts: 36
From: New Orleans, Louisiana, USA
Speaks Polish?: No
Interests: Historical Martial Arts, military history, history in general

Displayed posts: 39 / page 1 of 2
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Galloglaich   
2 Jan 2014
History / A view of Poland from far far away [14]

The OP was trying to suck up to Poles so hard that he failed, tripped and then tripped again.

I may have failed in many respects, but I was not trying to 'suck up'. I was trying to convey my perspective, for context. I knew it was too wordy and was going to pare it down but I was used to other forums where you could edit a bit after posting.

handful of tips for the future
-you said you don't like aristocracy and feudalism and religion, poland had all of this things

Of course, I am fairly well-read on Polish history. I just didn't know too many Poles when I wrote the OP. I do know a few now.

-polish don't deny that Sienkiewicz was writing propaganda. even he admited that.

I didn't think I said otherwise? I understood the reason for the propaganda. I also read a bit about Sienkiewicz and his experiences in the US. There is kind of a cinematic or literary link I can see between John Ford Westerns, Kirosawa Samurai films, and Sergio Argento 'spaghetti' westerns. Perhaps Sienkiewicz fit's into that pattern a bit.

-polish don't like the movie adpatations of his movies so if you were trying to suck up to us by complimanting that garbage you have failed

I wasn't sucking up to anything. I knew the films weren't too popular (or were complained about) but they are still better than anything we have in the US.

-polish have a victim complex about occupation, and all that stuff so comparing polish history to some pathetic new orleans is not a good idea if you want to compliment us

New Orleans isn't pathetic, I wonder how much you actually know about it to have such a specific point of view? I understand the beef about occupation. It's a bigger deal for a whole country. What I was trying to convey is that it leads to a different type of 'nationalism' so to speak. Parochialism. We are pretty proud here as well. I don't like people insulting my home any more than you do.

-polish people don't like revolutions due to conservative historians. polish people do like Napoleon.

That's something I didn't know. But it seems like a rather broad generalization.

-polishlithuanian commonwealth was nothing like city-states

Maybe not but there were most certainly city states in it. At least based on Jan Dlugosz whose Annales I have read, among many other historians.

if you just wanted help with your projects you could have just asked and spared us that ****** huge opening

Nobody forced you to read it amigo.

G
Galloglaich   
20 Nov 2012
History / Balthasar Behem Codex - translation? [2]

I am looking for a transcription or translation of the Balthasar Behem Codex, also known as the Codex Picturatus.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balthasar_Behem_Codex

The original is in Latin I'm looking for a transcription that I can try to translate, but if there is a translation in modern Polish that would be great, a translation into English would be even better.

The books is a detailed survey of all the crafts in Kraków in 1505, with some rather beautiful paintings. Not all of the paintings are available either, so I'm interested in those too. The original is at the University in Kraków, according to the wiki. Any help finding this would be greatly appreciated.

G
Galloglaich   
12 Nov 2011
History / Księga Elbląska (the Prussian city of Elbing legal document) [8]

This is wonderful stuff, thanks especially for the link to that image.

Part of the confusion of coinage terms is that we tend to think of a stable value but we are talking about a period of Centuries in a vast region (even if we just mean North Eastern / Central Europe) so the values fluctuate considerably.

Do you know much about a type of currency called a Nogata? I was interested in that due to an evocative reference in the Chronicle of Novgorod

Similarly with the law and fines. They changed over time both in their enforcement and their written definition, the Księga Elbląska apparently dates from the 13th or early 14th Century, the Royal and Town laws changed dramatically between then and the time of Kazimierz Wielki or Kazimierz IV Jagiellończyk who were setting the groundwork for the mighty Kingdom Poland became in the Renaissance.

I think this interesting concept you mention of the "mir" relates to the German term Landfried, also called Landfrýdy in Czech. This was a complex idea derived from the earlier Catholic attempts at a "gods peace" or "Peace and Freedom of God movement", but it was a secular political union between the estates of a given region which lacks a strong central authority. Landfrieden typically consist of both gentry and peasantry as well as independent Church prelates (Bishops and Abbots) in some type of council or diet, which in turn appoints “justices of the peace of the roads” who collectively enforce the freedom or peace of the roads, punishing bandits, robber knights and other malefactors whose activities disrupt public commerce. The main reason for this was to prevent famine and regional starvation as often happened after wars when people were being too reckless, such as during the Hunger War. Famines were more perilous after the Black Death because they often led to outbreaks of plague. I know concretely that some regions in Bohemia, Moravia, Prussia and Pomerania, and I believe in parts of Silesia and Masovia too were essentially governed by Landfried, with or without some theoretical Prince or King as overlord (often absentee). Poland of course had real royal authority but I think it fluctuated in terms of strength and rarely had the ability to fully control every district.

There was also something called Landsgemeinde which were peasant associations or Communes, like the Slavic Veche seen in some parts of Russia. They had Landsgemeinde in Saxony in this big marsh called the 'Dishmarshen' and of course in Switzerland where some Cantons are still run this way, and the Zaporozhian Cossacks had some equivalent to this. I don't know if it existed in Poland for sure or not, or what the Polish equivalent would be. Eventually obviously anything like this was replaced and superceeded in Poland by the Szlachta.

G
Galloglaich   
12 Nov 2011
History / Księga Elbląska (the Prussian city of Elbing legal document) [8]

I'm interested in all of it. I'm aware what a mark is! So grzywna means a mark. Back then a mark is roughly equivalent to 352 grams or 12 ounces of silver, so I'm guessing it is a gold coin? There were so many currencies in use in the area though it's rather bewildering. I wasn't even aware the Mark was an actual coin all the references I'd seen in German records referred to it more like a unit of book-keeping like the French Livre often was. Coins seem to be in denominations of Florin / Gulden, Thaeler, Kreuzer, Groschen, the Prague Groschen or Kutna Hora Groschen, the Pfennig, and the Dinari... I didn't even know about the wiardunek, skojec, and szeląg either. Thanks for teaching me this:)

So anyway if it means 50 marks, that is a very steep fine actually. Not many people would be able to pay that. It's enough money to buy 4 or 5 of the most expensive 'proofed' Milanese armours for example. So what happens if you can't pay the fine?

I look forward to any further translation of any laws from the Ksiega Wieczysta. The laws on rape are interesting because in some forms of German law in use in some of these towns (i.e. Lubeck law and Magdeburg Law) rape was supposed to be punishable by death. But that may not have been the actual practice in Prussia, these town-charters were kind of cookie -cutter but were adapted to different standards in different areas.

Thanks for your help,

G.
Galloglaich   
11 Nov 2011
History / Księga Elbląska (the Prussian city of Elbing legal document) [8]

Thanks, I was hoping to find an English translation of the whole thing, but I appreciate the help here, I can look that one up and use automatic translation software to look at it. Thanks mate :)

Sounds like a pretty mild punishment for rape! Though I'm not familiar with that particular currency, is that equivalent to a groschen? I'll have to look that up as well. It's also confusing that it refers to 'knightly' status, in the towns it would be more relevant to be of burgher status, i.e. to have burgher or grossburgher citizenship.

I wish I could read Polish, it seems like this document will be an interesting insight into this world.

Thanks again,

G.
Galloglaich   
10 Nov 2011
History / Księga Elbląska (the Prussian city of Elbing legal document) [8]

I am interested in this legal document from the Prussian city of Elbing, which apparently includes laws in both Polish and German and an account of Polish Common law, the first on record according to the wiki.

Does anyone know where this document can be found online and if there is an English translation available?

This is the google-translated Polish wiki on it but it doesn't say much

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=pl&u=http://pl.wik ipedi a.org/wiki/Ksi%25C4%2599ga_elbl%25C4%2585ska&ei=hwG8TuS7CsWC2wX73 Lm-Bw &sa=X&oi=translate&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CBwQ7gEwAA&prev=/searc h%3Fq %3DKsi%25C4%2599ga%2BElbl%25C4%2585ska%26hl%3Den%26biw%3D1920%26b ih%3D 998%26prmd%3Dimvns

This document seems to also provide evidence of the bilingual / bi-cultural status of the Prussian towns in the Middle Ages since evidently both German (Saxon) law and Polish common law were practiced in the Hanse City of Elbing (which is right next door to Frauenberg / Frombork where Kopernicus was born).

G.
Galloglaich   
2 Nov 2011
News / GERMANS WANT TO GERMANIZE KOPERNIK (COPERNICUS)! OUTRAGE! [1016]

Thanks, interesting analysis. I do know some Czechs, specifically the Chodov / Psohlavci did in fact live in some border areas somewhat in thee manner of the Polish Gorali, but that was in the south not in Lusatia. What you mentioned about Czechs fleeing to Zittau during the counter-reformation explains perhaps why the english language Wiki asserts that it was a Czech town. Do you know of evidence that the towns had Sorb populations (living inside the town walls not in the Feldmark around it?) As for the "De-Germanization" I know this did happen to a fairly large extent throughout many towns in Moravia and all over Bohemia as well, even further east in what is now Slovakia, as most of the Germans remained Catholic. Only in some zones like around Pilsen were they strong enough to fight off the Hussite armies at the height of their power. Of course there were also a significant number of Germans who were sympathetic to the Hussite cause, and those remained for the most part, including in Prague.

I actually have read more Czech and Polish novels than histories so far, which is what makes me feel that cultural affinity for them. Most of my history comes from 'primary sources' as much as possible, and to a lesser extent through military history sources like Hans Delbruck and Jacob Burckhardt. Though I have read some Polish historical novels (the Henryk Seinkowicz novels) which I know were propagandish to some extent but also fairly accurate. What has endeared me to slavic / central European culture are the 20th Century writers Jersy Kosinsky, Stanislaw Lem (during the Communist era but I do not think biased toward Communist propaganda!) Jaroslav Hasec, Carel Capek, and Franz Kafka among others. The only Polish historians I have some familiarity with are excerpts of some of the work of the 15th Century Jan Długosz (whose complete works are, very sadly, still unavailable in English) which is also biased and even fantastical in parts, but really, no more than most other source from that time... and quite interesting because the man personally knew most of the power players of his era and participated in several of the key events. And some of the various chronicles from Bohemia at that time, cross referenced with the several sources from the Teutonic Order and a few from Scandinavia, and the Chronicles of Novgorod.

I will say that some of the historical films I've seen from the Communist era in Czechoslovakia and Poland (such as the trilogy of films about Jan Ziska, Alexander Ford's "Krzyzacy", and the With Fire and Sword trilogy), while heavily biased in their point of view, are more accurate on a technical level than any equivalent films set in Medieval times produced by the Americanss or British. And less obviously biased than the post-Communist Russian films I've seen like Taras Bulba or 1612. And to be honest, if you go back and watch American films from the 1950's and 1960's they are pretty sharply slanted toward American Cold War proaganda for that matter.

But I tend to view everything with a grain of salt. You have to try to cross reference sources, history is a tricky puzzle.

G
Galloglaich   
2 Nov 2011
News / GERMANS WANT TO GERMANIZE KOPERNIK (COPERNICUS)! OUTRAGE! [1016]

Thanks,

Yeah I've noticed that. Some really rabid anti-polish regulars on this forum, a few pro-polish forumites who seem to have a lot of agnst as well.

Where do most of these anti-polish posters come from? US? UK? Germany?

Among people I know in the US I think they really just don't know anything about Poland other than Kielbasa and Polka. Lots of people in the US of Polish heritage but we haven't had polish immigration on a large scale in a while, at least not near where I live. I don't think people here have a sense of what Poland or Polish people are like.

I remember when I was in France several years ago there was this controversy about Eastern European immigrants in the French economy and the catch-phrase they used was the "Polish Plumber". Then I remember reading a little while later that Poland had made an ad campaign around a handsome plumber, inviting tourists to come to Poland. It seemed very clever, turned the whole stereotype right on it's head.

When I visited Czech republic for the first time I was shocked by how prosperous and beautiful it was. I think if most Americans had any real idea what North-Eastern Europe was like they would have a very positive view of it. But it really doesn't even exist in our media except in ridiculous films like "hostel".

Anyway, I didn't mean to open a can of worms. I naively thought the somewhat multicultural family history of Kopernik would be inspirational and really (in my opinion) puts Poland in a rather positive light.

G
Galloglaich   
1 Nov 2011
News / GERMANS WANT TO GERMANIZE KOPERNIK (COPERNICUS)! OUTRAGE! [1016]

Zittau, like the Bohemian towns south of the border, was mostly German too, unlike the other Upper Lusatian towns it was just part of Bohemia proper for some time.

Interesting, though not surprising. This area was another melting pot. My sources said Zittau had a lot of Czechs, I suspect four of them did at any rate after being sacked by the Hussites in the 1430s. But I'm interested to learn more, I knew Bautzen was an early center of the Sorbs but I wasn't aware of large numbers of the Sorbs in Bautzen in the late Medieval period? You don't happen to have a source for this do you? I'm interested to learn more.

G

I hope I don't come across as trying to undermine Poland, it's not my intention. I'm sorry for reviving the thread.

G
Galloglaich   
1 Nov 2011
News / GERMANS WANT TO GERMANIZE KOPERNIK (COPERNICUS)! OUTRAGE! [1016]

When it comes to history, I'm not on either side. History just is what it is. We can't learn anything by trying to make it more like what we want it to be.

But through reading history, and trying to be impartial, I have become very interested in and sympathetic to Poland which I knew nothing about until I really penetrated deep into historical sources (bypassing interpretation). That is why I came to this forum.

I like a lot of Polish and Czech authors and I think I relate better to Central European culture in general than to "Western" Culture.

G.
Galloglaich   
1 Nov 2011
News / GERMANS WANT TO GERMANIZE KOPERNIK (COPERNICUS)! OUTRAGE! [1016]

At the risk of being accused as a "home spun German lunatic self made historian*" I would like to add, for context, that at the time there was no such thing as 'Germany' as a country, any more than there was a European Union. Germany was a region in much the same way as we may today in the US refer to "New England" or "Appalachia". There wasn't even a unifying German language, and the language spoken in Baltic region and Hanse towns was Middle Low German, which is very different from the High German used in much of the Holy Roman Empire (and from which the modern German language is mostly derived). Middle Low German is more like Dutch or Frisian. It was one of 5 or 6 major Germanic dialects spoken in Central Europe at that time.

The Holy Roman Empire has been described (by Voltaire) as neither Holy, nor Roman, nor an Empire. It also was not the Medieval equivalent of Germany as many Americans today assume. It was a very loose aggregation of different small states, ethnic enclaves, small theocracies and free cities and included people of many ethnicities. The Kingdom of Bohemia was not only part of the Holy Roman Empire but the King of Bohemia was one of the Prince Electors who elected the Emperor, and some of the most famous Emperors were from Bohemia (such as Charles IV). The seat of the Holy Roman Empire was in Prague three times. Emperors also derived from Hungary, Flanders, and Spain among other nations, and citizens of the HRE spoke Latin, Czech, Slavonik, Magyar, Italian, and various dialects of French among other languages, in addition to several dialects of German (Middle Low German, Middle High German, Swabian, Franconian, Alsatian and so on).

German speaking immigrants had migrated into almost all the cities in Central and North Eastern Europe during the Middle Ages and Germans were heavily integrated into Eastern Europe, but not as overlords or conquerers. To the contrary, Polish, Czech, and Hungarian military forces proved capable of defeating 'German' Imperial armies and Crusader-Knights on more than one occasion.

Poland on the other hand, was a Kingdom, so in that sense more like a modern State. But it was also very mixed! It was in the process of forming a union with Lithuania and the Polish Royal Dynasty derived from that country. Poland then included vast numbers of Ruthenians, German settlers, Scots, Dutch, Czechs, "Old Prussians" (native Baltic tribes) and indigenous groups like the Gorali and Masovians, and even Tartars and Turks. One of the Polands most famous and patriotic authors Henryk Sienkiewicz was part Tatar!

The other truth is that during the Middle Ages much of Europe was not even at the level of organization of a Kingdom, but was in fact made up of mixed zones of many ethnicities and no effective centralized rulership. This did include Prussia, Chelmnoland and Silesia, where Copernicus / Kopernik's family came from, as well as Lusatia, Moravia, Masovia, and Pomerania. Lusatia was governed by a Stadtbund (city league) of 5 German and one Czech towns** called Związek Sześciu Miast by the Poles and Šestiměsti by the Czechs, and Oberlausitzer Sechsstädtebu by the Germans. Moravia was governed by a Landfrieden / Landfrydy (diet) made up of a mixture of Czech and German towns, clergy and Gentry centered in Brno. Pomerania was stuck in a power struggle between the Griffin Dukes and the towns of Stettin (Szczecin), Griefswald and Rostock. Prussia was controlled by the Prussian Confederation of 19 Cities and 53 nobles and Clergy (inlcuing Lucas Watzenrode, the uncle of Copernicus / Kopernik), and by the Związek Jaszczurczy knightly league.

In these areas, there was at best a limited government and no unified culture, or language, or borders. Who was to enforce racial purity? It didn't exist.

If there was such a mechanism it would be news to me and I'd like to know about it.

G

* would be strange since I do not have a drop of German blood so far as I know
** The towns were Bautzen (Budyšin), Görlitz (Zhorjelc), Kamenz (Kamjenc), Lauban, Löbau (Lubij) and Zittau (Žitawa). Zittau was mostly Czech, the others were mostly German.

I should not have referred to Spain as a nation as it was also a region during Medieval times...
Galloglaich   
1 Nov 2011
News / GERMANS WANT TO GERMANIZE KOPERNIK (COPERNICUS)! OUTRAGE! [1016]

Well I just hope I can go and see all of his haunts one day in Torun and Frombork and so on. The photos of these places look beautiful but the closest I've ever been is Prague. Maybe next year.

G
Galloglaich   
31 Oct 2011
News / GERMANS WANT TO GERMANIZE KOPERNIK (COPERNICUS)! OUTRAGE! [1016]

As someone who calls himself an expert

I said 'expert' with a smiley, I do not seriously consider myself an expert though I am trying to learn. But I am familiar with the basics of the period and subject at hand

you should know that the 10.000 people are propaganda, like the propaganda of the Order who said they killed 16 people.

I recognize that the exact figure is disputed (usually along nationalistic lines much like the ethnicity of Kopernik / Copernicus), but the number 10,000 is the one which showed up in the contemporaneous Polish lawsuit and in some other period records, and I think it's much closer to the reality than the dramatically lower figures claimed by the Order. It was not the first or the last time a city was put to the sword by a new owner. However many were actually killed, it was sufficient to change many things in the city, including nearly all the rolls of the registered merchants and burghers. And more importantly while yest the disputes were often related to money, this overlapped with the idea of autonomy. The status of a 'Free City'. This is why when the new contract was negotiated with Casimir IV the clause of "Danzigur Wilkur" was put in. The towns wanted the autonomy which they saw as directly linked to their prosperity. But the bottom line was that the Teutonic Knights caused the death of many Burghers of all the Prussian cities, and they eventually started a war for independence against them which lasted 13 years and cost many lives (and a fortune in money) and more wars followed including during Copernicus. And while this can be brushed aside and dismissed, I don't think it was so casual for the people then. Look at people in this forum, World War II was 60 years ago and the bitterness is still palpabale with some folks. I have Irish family who still hate the British from events in the 19th century.

So, ethnicity in the modern sense didn't exist, cultural identities only to some extent, yet the order represented "German nationalism". Ahhm, what?

Yes that is right. The Teutonic Order represented a certain type of jingoistic religious - ethnic nationalism which I think was pretty unusual at that time outside of the realm of warrior-monks (the Livonian Order were even worse in this respect) the early form of what later became modern German nationalism. It's no accident that it was Prussia was the State which united Germany into a predatory and aggressive.. and paranoid military State. But even the Order were not as pristine in their racism as people from modern post-industrial States. For example, they absorbed a small Polish* Crusading Order into their ranks, the Zakon Dobrzyński or "Order of Dobrin" in 1235.

Let me make another rather obvious point. It was normal in the Medieval period and the Renaissance for the subjects of a particular region to have a King from a distant land. The British Royal Family, for example, are largely Saxon. The Jageilonian dynasty of Poland was of course, derived of a Lithuanian family. The Czechs alternated between Hungarian, Polish, German, Lithuanian and German rulers through most of their history, until being taken over by the Hapsburgs after the 30 years war. The Germans themselves were often ruled by Spaniards.

As above, so below. The royal families were not the only ones to mix blood. Towns, especially trading towns like the Hanse towns of Poland and Prussia, were particularly and notoriously mixed. Merchants from other places lived in the town for years and brought their families along with them. The Artus Court in Danzig and Torun for example admitted Dutch and Scottish merchants into their ranks by the 16th Century. They had been admitting Poles and Germans since their inception. In the 15th Century Gdansk / Danzig alone had 'factories' from Poland of course, from the Kingdom of Britain, from Lisbon, from Seville, from Bruges, from Amsterdam and from Veliky Novgorod. After this has gone on for a few generations, it gets pretty hard to distinguish who has the pure blood. After all, pretty girls inspire the same sorts of reaction in young men, and money earns the same kinds of reaction in old ones, regrdless who it was tainted with. The only real "ethnic" barriers were across the Catholic / Orthodox religious line (and even there not a complete barrier) and between Muslims and Christians more generally.... but once again even here Poland (Poland -Lithuania) makes an exception by being one of the only nations in Christian Europe to allow Muslims (Tartars) to settle peacefully. At least until the Deluge anyway.

G.

*Naturally, the ethnicity of the knights in this Order are also contested and debated.

This is true. Not only that but I read that Martin Luther mocked Copernicus by calling him a "foolish Pole" for discovering that the Earth went around the Sun. So even Copernicus' enemies knew he was Polish.

Not necessarily. Here in Louisiana we used to call all Americans "Kaintuk" even though we knew most of them didn't actually come from Kentucky. I don't think that really means anything.

You say there are "many German Catholics remaining in Prussia after Luther". Of course there were still German Catholics in Prussia. Not every single one of them became Lutherans.

But if you mean "many" as in there were more German Catholics then German protestants in Prussia you are wrong.

Not more, certainly not in the towns, though in some of the Teutonic Knights districts (Ducal Prussia) they remained more Catholic for much longer... but I'm just saying it wasn't an insignificant number. By the 19th Century IN PRUSSIA it looks like Catholics are nearly a third of the population. How many are German Catholics is hard to say though because many were Kashubian and Polish undoubtedly, but there were enough to found a strong German Catholic political party.

Do you know what parts of Germany became predominately Lutheran and which parts were Catholic? Take a guess. Central, North and North East Germany became predominately Lutheran. So HELLO......what does that tell you?

See the above.

Also one of your recent links talked about the SLAVIC background of Copernicus' mother's family.......even though she had a German name. Now I never knew Germans were Slavic?? LOL

The Watzenrodes were mixed but probably more German than Slavic, but on the other hand I think his fathers family was the other way around, probably Polish - Silesians.

Not only that your link said that the cities of Silesia were over half Polish even though economically the Germans were dominate.

I agree with that. We know for sure that many cities had mixed Polish - German populations because in some cases theit was mentioned in the town charter and other records. I've seen letters complaining of German and Polish Burghers from a town in Greater Poland near Silesia who were raiding the estates of a Bishop.

Do you want me to show you those things in your own links on Copernicus?

You may but I was quite aware of them when I posted them. I was arguing with the guy who claimed that Copernicus / Kopernik was all -German.

You say Copernicus was of mixed ancestry.

I tell you what, why don't we split the difference here and both agree that Copernicus was mixed but that he was predominately of Polish ancestry?

I think that is probably accurate. Ethnically, he was mixed, but I would suspect had more Polish blood than German. Culturally he was mixed as well but his alliance was with the Poles politically. Like a lot of the people of mixed and German ancestry at that time!

G.
Galloglaich   
31 Oct 2011
News / GERMANS WANT TO GERMANIZE KOPERNIK (COPERNICUS)! OUTRAGE! [1016]

Your information is in reference to Germany in the past 140 years.

Sure there are German Catholics. About 40% of Germany is Catholic today.

But you do realize that where (and when) Copernicus lived, ie near or in German areas, those areas largely were the first to convert to German Protestantism?

Of course ... I am en expert on Medieval history in the Baltic region :) But as I pointed out, there were still many German Catholics remaining in Prussia well after Luther. I would also add, part of the reason the German towns went Lutherin as soon as it became available is because they hated the Teutonic Order so much. HATED. Not just a little "economic hassle" like some other posters had said. Don't forget the Teutonic Knights killed 10,000 people in Danzig in 1308, and killed most of the City Council in 1412. This is why the towns turned against the Order. After Grunwald Jogaila pardoned all the German burghers who had fought for the Order and let them go home without paying a ransom. This made them more friendly to Poland. Then the Order demanded ransom money from the towns and killed several members of the town council, and also executed the leaders of the Eidechsenbund /Związek Jaszczurczy knightly league which (relevant to Copernicus) was from Chelmnoland, whom they blamed for losing the battle. Thus they alienated both the Burghers and the Gentry of Prussia, even while Jogiala continued to appear both powerful and reasonable, while the Teutonic Knights appeared crazy and bitter. Small wonder the Germans wanted to switch allegiences, it would hardly be the first time that had happened in Europe.

I would also add, for context, there was always strong tension between trading towns, especially the Hanse towns, and the Church went back to the early Middle Ages. Most of those towns were originally owned by the Bishops or Abbots, and they fought wars of independence to be free. Not just in Germany, but all across northern Europe, Belgium, Flanders, Holland, Sweden, Czech. I won't get into the details because you are probably not interested, but there are plenty of records as evidence. So the turn to Lutherinism was hardly surprising. It also echoed the Hussite rebellion and the subsequent purge of Church control from the towns and Estates of Bohemia and Moravia.

Ethnicity was not the same concept in the 15th and 16th Century as it is today. Poland and German were languague groups, cultural identities to some extent. As others have pointed out, Poland included Lithuanians, Samogitians, Ruthenians, Curonians, Masovians, Silesians, Lusatians, Czechs, Slovaks, Swedes, Scots, Mordvins... and plenty of Frisians, Saxons, Franconians, Thuringians, Bavarians and so on. Similarly the Holy Roman Empire included Czechs, Magyars, Walloons, Flemish, Spanish, Italians and French as well as all the various ethnic groups we consider German. There were no clean lines, and no ethnic police to enforce the boundaries.

The horrific legacy of the 20th Century creates a layer of bitterness which is hard to swallow. I understand it, my family were in the French Resistance and I had several family members who werre killed by the Nazi's. I think it is unfortunate however to deny the historical reality that many Germans elected to join Poland voluntarily and rejected the aggressive type of German nationalism represented by the Teutonic Knights, who were an unhappy bunch of men that would have been better suited fighting the Turks.

Not all the Germans were of their ilk, nor were all Poles saints. History is never so clean.

And the truth is, most of the people in that region of what is now northern Poland, including Kopernik, were at least partly of mixed heritage.

G.
Galloglaich   
31 Oct 2011
News / GERMANS WANT TO GERMANIZE KOPERNIK (COPERNICUS)! OUTRAGE! [1016]

Copernicus's ancestry is 100% Polish.

Please forgive me, because I'm kind of on your side on this, but this is far too simplistic. Actually many Germans remained Catholic, like they did in Bavaria and in much of Silesia and Bohemia. The members of the Teutonic Order (mostly German) did not open ranks to Protestants until 1555, and even after than many of them remained Catholic. According to Wikipedia, as late as 1871 there were still 8 million Catholics in Prussia, there was even a powerful German Catholic political party in Prussia in the 19th Century.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centre_Party_%28Germany%29#Catholic_groups_in_the_Prussian_Diet

While it may be the case that most of the Germans were xenophobic and Protestant in the 20th Century, it's unfair to pretend that was the case in the early-modern period. Poles and Germans continued to intermarry during the entire time of the Rzeczpospolita. These people weren't angels but they weren't Nazi's either.

Instead she and her family were glad to be CATHOLICS and glad to SUPPORT Poland!

Why would you assume that supporting Poland against the Teutonic Order was against "German interests"? Who enforced for all Germans to have united interests? They didn't seem to have a lot of unity in the Holy Roman Empire were always fighting. Almost all the Prussian towns revolted against the Teutonic Order, were they all 100% Polish? Elbing, Danzig, Torun ?

Poles historically spoke more German and have more German last names then any other nation outside of Germany

I think that is oversimplified, I agree with you that many Poles had German names, but that was partly also due to intermarriage, and the fact that most of the towns had a lot of Germans in them. Krakow, for example had a lot of Germans. And It wasn't just in Poland. Pilsen in the Czech Republic, Stockholm in Sweden.

Are you familiar with the Ostiedlung?

G.
Galloglaich   
30 Oct 2011
News / GERMANS WANT TO GERMANIZE KOPERNIK (COPERNICUS)! OUTRAGE! [1016]

When you are discussing people from the 16th Century, it's pretty pointless to bring up World War II or any events in the 20th Century as they have no relevance.

And every other document he wrote? What's the reason that not even a single one of them is in Polish? Not even the letters to the King of Poland? Could it be that he didn't actually speak Polish?

If he couldn't speak Polish he would be almost unique in Warmia at that time.

We only have a few letters by Copernicus / Kopernik, most of what he wrote that survived was in Latin (Does this mean he was Roman?), and a few letters in German which was more commonly used in official matters of trade and warfare in the towns. No letters survived in Polish as you well know but that doesn't prove anything as you also well know.

The old name of his family was written in records from the period. The Kopernik family was recorded in Krakow since 1367, His great grandfather on his mothers side was recorded in the rolls of the city of Kraków in 1396 as Kopernik, his father shows up in the records in Kraków as Niklaus Kopernik in 1447 and 1448. The name derives from the copper industry which the family was involved with in Silesia. There is also a village in Silesia called Koperniki.

Copernicus' father was also the treasurer of Zwiazek Jaszczurczy (Lizard Union) which was an anti-Teutonic Order guerrilla group of Knights, including German, Polish and native Prussian knights. Several of these men were assassinated or executed by the Teutonic Order during the 15th Century.

Yes but those are historical facts and thus worthless when certain Poles are talking about history (and how they would like historical events to have been).

Yeah but does it help to pretend everyone good is German to counteract people pretending everyone good is Polish? Both ethnic / language groups share the same history, good and bad. Mostly good in Poland from the 15th to the mid 17th Century. I think the region during that period is something to be proud of both for Poles and Germans. But people today from either country have relatively little in common with our ancestors from those times. It was a very different world, one which we really don't understand very well at all (and would probably benefit from learning more about).

G
Galloglaich   
30 Oct 2011
News / GERMANS WANT TO GERMANIZE KOPERNIK (COPERNICUS)! OUTRAGE! [1016]

Actually plenty of Germans fought against the Teutonic Order and for Poland.

Several of the Captains on the Polish / Prussian side were German during the 13 Years War for example. Germans and Bohemians fought on both sides of most of the conflicts between the Teutonic Knights and Poland over the years. People didn't have the same kind of ideas about ethnicity then as we do today.

G.
Galloglaich   
30 Oct 2011
History / A view of Poland from far far away [14]

Jwojcie, Eurola, thanks for your posts. Sorry to revive this old thread but I sort of lost track of this forum after finding it several months ago. Jwojcie the link to that book 'Microcosm' is really great, thank you, I'm going to pick up a copy of that as soon as possible. I think it will be very helpful for my little research project.

The re-enactor links you posted are very impressive, they do re-enactment fighting very hard core in Eastern Europe, one of the things I hope to see one day are the big celebrations at Malbork one year and maybe go see the "Battle of nations". There is a very lively re-enactor scene in Eastern Europe in general and Poland in particular. They even have their own music, I ran across this interesting video the other day:

youtube.com/watch?v=lGupr_ISDtc

But Historical European Martial Arts (HEMA) is actually a different thing. Probably all seems the same if you aren't into it, we are all sword nerds I guess. We study some very old books and try to work out what the martial arts techniques are, and then we fight each other competitively. We do not dress in historical costumes and most of the fighting does not involve armor, but more like modern sports equipment. The only thing historical are the fighting techniques and the weapons (special type of blunt sparring sword called a federschwert, and the dussack). The emphasis is more similar to something like MMA, but maybe not quite that tough:) For contrast to the videos you posted, here are a couple of promotional videos from a Swedish group from Gothenburg my group is friendly with and a Polish group in Gdansk which I also have a little bit of contact with.

Sweden
youtube.com/watch?v=ZQMrbj3Ukws

Poland
youtube.com/watch?v=H7aXtzf7-Lk&feature=related

To give you an idea of the specific techniques here is a video from a group from Slovakia demonstrating a progression of attacks and counters, in a rather dramatic manner :)

youtube.com/watch?v=ln94E9AGYTc

We know this ancient martial arts system from about 200 books which have survived the ages. One of the interesting things about this system is that almost half of the one's thought of as "German" books were actually published in Polish or Czech towns, and some of the historical Masters have Slavic names. There were also some Jewish Masters. The Poles are very good at this stuff by the way, the Polish groups are generally considered some of the best fencers in the HEMA community right now. Anyway enough about that stuff. I promise not to divert into it again!

I am also a great fan of the With Fire and Sword series of films of course. Have there been any other good historical films made in Poland in the last ten years or so that I should know about?

I was recently in Toronto and that very diverse city apparently has a substantial Polish ex-pat community, I was hoping to go visit the neighborhood near Roncesvalles Avenue and try something close to authentic Polish food but we weren't able to get there. We will probably be going back there next year so I'll definitely make it. I'm trying to put together a trip to Central Europe though it's difficult to go to Europe due to the economy and the cost of the Euro and so on. How does US currency hold up in Poland? Poland isn't on the Euro right? That was probably a wise decision...

From what I have heard the economy is good in Poland right now, is that true? Don't mean to open a can of worms there but I'm just curious.

G.
Galloglaich   
30 Oct 2011
News / GERMANS WANT TO GERMANIZE KOPERNIK (COPERNICUS)! OUTRAGE! [1016]

I'm sorry to resurrect the old thread, but as this is something I have been studying quite a bit lately as I've been writing a book on the Medieval Baltic. I thought I would chime in.

The debate about Nicholas Copernicus / Niklas Koppernigk has gone on for centuries and been debated by University professors and so on, and literally been the (partial) cause of wars, so I'm unlikely to settle the issue. I seriously doubt I could convince Bratworst Boy of anything including the color of the sky if we were both standing under it on a clear day!

But maybe I can contribute some nuance and a few facts to the argument.

1) Ethnicity
During this period (late 15th / early 16th Century) there was no such country as Germany. There was the Holy Roman Empire which was largely German-speaking, and there was the Deutschordensland, aka Ordensstaat, aka The Monastic State of the Teutonic Order, which was a mostly German military religious order that controlled a large part of Prussia during this period, as well as the Livonian Order which controlled much of what is today Latvia and Estonia, and many German nobles and aristocrats in regions such as Pomerania, Lusatia and Silesia with strong political links to the Holy Roman Empire. There was also the Hanse or Hanseatic League which was a German speaking (specifically Middle Low German) cartel which linked trading towns across Northern Europe, but also included many non German towns including London, Wisby in Sweden, Vilnius in Lithuania, and Novgorod in Russia, as well as several cities in Prussia and Poland.

The district of Prussia was one of the mixed zones in the Baltic which had alternated between German, Polish, and native Baltic control several times between 1000 and 1500 AD. Prussia was a relatively urbanized region with many towns which were part of the Hanseatic League. The majority of the rural population in Prussia were Kashubians, people of a mixed Baltic - Slavic heritage who spoke a language similar to Polish. The towns in Prussia including Gdansk / Danzig, the most important city in the region, and also including the two towns most directly associated with Copernicus / Koppernigk: Toruń / Thorn and Frambork / Frauenberg, had mixed German / Slavic populations and also included a large number of Scots, Dutchmen, and Jews, as well as native Prussians, Lithuanians, Russians and Western Europeans left behind from Crusader armies. Almost all towns in Central and Eastern Europe had substantial German speaking populations due to the Osteidlung, the German migration eastward, but in many cases the initial migration took place centuries before the time of Copernicus / Koppernigk and the local populations were no more German by ethnicity than Americans are English.

2) Language and Law
Most towns in the Baltic during this period were under German Town Law and burghers (town citizens) spoke German and other regional languages. Burghers in Prussia spoke both Middle Low German and Polish, and we know from at least one surviving phrase book some also spoke native Prussian. The language we know today as German did not exist in the time of Copernicus / Koppernigk. The lingua franca of the mercantile trade was Middle Low German, the language used by the Hanseatic League, while the lingua franca of regional governments and Church administration was Latin. Middle Low German was a derivative of Saxon which overlaps with Dutch and contributes numerous loan-words to English, the Scandinavian Languages, and the Baltic languages. It's very different from the high German or 'Standard' German spoken today.

Burghers in the Prussian towns during the late 15th and early 16th Century spoke both German and Polish. This was necessary because they conducted trade between Polish farms and the towns of the Hanseatic League. Most written records associated with trade were written in German because German was the language of the Hanse. City records were sometimes in German (due largely to their being under German town law) and sometimes in Latin (especially those towns under administration by the Church or the Religious / Military Orders) because this was the international language of Catholic Europe. After the Protestant reformation this shifted back to German in many of the towns after they converted to Lutheranism. But the use of German as a language of record did not necessarily make them German any more than the use of Latin made them Italian.

German town law was a type of charter (Handfeste) which delineated the degree of autonomy enjoyed by the town. Lubeck law represented the highest degree of autonomy, essentially that of a city-state. Kulm Law, named after the city of Chelmno in Prussia (now Poland) in the same district where Copernicus / Koppernigk lived, was a lesser level of autonomy in which the town did not control their own courts. Towns in this time were made up of several small municipalities which were often under different town charters and represented different ethnic groups. For example the town of Danzig was divided into the Altstadt / Urbs Gzddanyzc (old town), the Rechstadt / Civitas Gedanensi (Main Town), the Stare Przedmiescie (Old Suburb) and the Osiek Hakelwerk. The Stare Przedmiescie and Osiek Hakelwork was primarily Polish speaking during the 15th Century, the Altstadt and Rechstaft (and the Neustadt which was torn down due to siding with the Teutonic Order during the 13 Years War) were primarily German speaking, but most Burghers were bilingual.

Just for context, Krakow, Warsaw, and nearly every other major Polish town in this time were also chartered under German town law. So was Vilnius and Stockholm. Nearly every city in Prussia at this time also had both a Polish and a German name, both of which were used interchangeably at the time. Modern historians have understandably dropped this habit and neglected the cumbersome obligation of using both names when discussing the period, but that has has contributed to the either / or mentality of these types of debates.

3) The family of Kopernik / Copernicus
Nicholas / Niklaus did in fact speak both Polish and German. His parents, a Polish father and German mother, died when he was young and he was raised by his uncle Lucas Von Watzenrode the Younger / £ukasz Watzenrode. Lucas was a prominent Burgher of the Free and Hanseatic city of Toruń / Thorn, a Ratzheren and also a Schoffe / Šepmistr, a magistrate. When Niklaus parents died unexpectedly, Lucas sponsored his education at Jageilonian University in Krakow and later in Bologna and Cologne (the same path that Lucas himself had taken as a student). Lucas was from a prominent local family which had supported the Prussian Confederation and the Poles against the Teutonic Order during the perilous 13 Years War, during which there was significant internal strife within Toruń / Thorn. Later in his life Lucas became Bishop of Warmia. He walked a fine line between the Polish and German authorities, the Polish King wanted to appoint a relative to the post and fought at least one small war to gain the right to appoint the Bishop, and the Teutonic Order desperately wanted to re-capture the district and launched many raids into Warmia and attempted assassinations and other mischief. Lucas proved and able administrator and a strong intellectual voice in opposition to the Teutonic Order, whom he advised to apply their aggressive energies toward the Turks rather than to fellow Europeans. (This was advice, incidentally, that the Poles themselves followed when they saved Vienna from it's second siege much later on in the 17th Century). Over time the Poles adopted a pragmatic policy and tacitly supported Lucas in his role. Nicholas / Niklaus followed Lucas around on his diplomatic errands and later in life became his personal physician.

My conclusion, for what little it's worth is this: The man by ethnicity was mixed, Polish and German and probably some native Prussian and very likely Dutch, Scottish and who knows what else. But probably more Polish than anything else. He spoke both languages though most of his surviving writings were in German. His political leanings were clearly toward Poland. Germany did not exist back then, but the closest thing to German nationalism (or really any type of nationalism) were the Teutonic Order, whose attitude was very similar to Bratwurst boy in their belligerence, hostility, xenophobia, and knack for rationalization.

The period of prosperity in this region was characterized by a mix of culture. The Polish Golden Age was also the Golden Age for the German speaking town of Prussia, who having consciously decided to throw off the rule of the Teutonic Order, elected to join with Poland under the condition that they be allowed to retain their autonomy. During the Reformation and Counter-Reformtion, when the rest of Europe was tearing itself apart in religious wars, the Lutheran German speaking cities like Danzig and Elbing and Torun, remained in harmony with Catholic Poland. As a result they prospered while much of Western Europe burned.

In most of the late Medieval and Renaissance period Central Europe could be described as a 'Failed State'. The Holy Roman Empire was a very loose and politically weak patchwork of Free Cities, theocratic zones, and feudal fiefdoms. Poland was and even less centralized Kingdom dominated by the rural Gentry, of whom 500,000 had a vote in the Szlachta. Though eventually both systems broke down, it was a recipe for prosperity for over 200 years, and it's hard to argue that Germany has been better off as a hyper nationalist, Centralized state. I think you are in fact seeing some return to regionalism in Germany. And while Sarmatism was far from an ideal system, the decentralization, religious tolerance and libertarian aspects of the Polish medieval system was at least somewhat successful, at least for the nobility and the townsfolk. It was in this environment where Copernicus / Kopernik was able to publish his scientific observations unmolested, even while Galileo was put on trial for heresy in Italy.

Just my $.02

Galloglaich.
Galloglaich   
27 Aug 2010
History / When will you Poles give back German land and the cities which you robbed? [557]

David_18The polish white eagle was allways single-edged and never mutated from having one head to have 2 heads and then mutate back to one head...

The double headed vulture is the Hapsburg symbol.

But the flags don't mean much really. Most royal families in Europe used the Eagle because they were all trying to pretend to be Romans. That is what Kaizer and Tsar mean after all, Caesar.

G.
Galloglaich   
27 Aug 2010
History / When will you Poles give back German land and the cities which you robbed? [557]

My understanding is that the Ostoja Clan, a powerful Polish / Hungarian family, were influential in the creation of the Prussian commonwealth, specifically within Danzig.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clan_of_Ostoja

Another interesting figure is a German knight and former member of the Teutonic Order, who parted ways with them and became a key figure in the rebellion

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gabriel_von_Baysen

G.
Galloglaich   
27 Aug 2010
History / When will you Poles give back German land and the cities which you robbed? [557]

Are you basing that on sheer intuition or any actual knowledge BB? From what I have read of the partition this is actually true some of the Prussian Hanse cities resisted it until the middle of the Century though it may not have been out of love for Kilbasa (these things can be quite complex, like History in general)

As a newby, can I ask, why do you hang out on a Polish forum since you seem to dislike and distrust Poles on general principle?

G.
Galloglaich   
27 Aug 2010
History / When will you Poles give back German land and the cities which you robbed? [557]

Bratwurst Boy
I now about the history of quarrels with the Teutonic Order.
Many Poles see these times as fights of Poles against Germans through the lenses of the 21th century and here I object.

I suspect you don't know much about this. Read up on the 13 years war. It was a war between the Poles and the Germans, with the Prussian cities on the side of the Poles. It's pretty unambiguous. And I'm not a Pole.

Polish and German history was intertwined in many ways for centuries...That german merchants had a gripe with the german order and build alliances

It wasn't merely an alliance, they asked to be part of Poland and negotiated the conditions of joining. Be precise.

to secure their trade can't be interpreted even by the biggest idiot as "Germans seeking refuge from german opression!"

That is how they described it in their own words... but of course, that assumes that these towns were really German. They had majority German populations and spoke German, but by that standard Boston would be part of England or Ireland.

Get real man!

Danzis still stayed a german prosperous center of trade full of Germans (till 1945) that is!

Step off the nationalistic propaganda bus. Read the real history you'll find it's interesting.

G.
Galloglaich   
27 Aug 2010
History / When will you Poles give back German land and the cities which you robbed? [557]

But this was at the start a Frankish kingdom, which had Hungarian, Bohemian, Spanish, and Flemish kings, had subjects who spoke Italian, Slovenian, Czech, Flemish, Frisian various dialects of German.

As a wise man once said, it was neither Holy, nor an Empire, nor Roman. And it was not exclusively German by a long shot. Saying it has a German "Character" is a little bit of a wiggle from claiming it is 100% German.

ROFLMAO

back to the books with you!

You seem to be surprised to learn some basic facts so far in this thread. Were you unaware that Danzig had asked to join Poland?

Your own argument now seems to be it doesn't matter what nation a city belongs to... perhaps you should leave it at that.

G.
Galloglaich   
27 Aug 2010
History / When will you Poles give back German land and the cities which you robbed? [557]

the Poles did what Germans never had done, they expelled the millions of Germans from their homes for centuries.

do you think the Teutonic Order got control of that area to begin with? The Germans never expelled people from their homes? For real? Do you really want me to start citing examples?

G.