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Posts by Jurgis  

Joined: 19 May 2010 / Male ♂
Last Post: 13 May 2011
Threads: 1
Posts: 6
From: Lithuania, Vilnius
Speaks Polish?: no
Interests: animation, drawing, illustration, football, sports

Displayed posts: 7
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13 May 2011
History / Poland Lithuania - current relations [124]

Obeying laws of polish minority in Republic of Lithuania

Thanks, I will ask someone to translate it.

I'm glad that Lithuanians have carved out a semi-strong identity for themselves. They are more secure now and will no longer be treated merely as a sandwich state between Russia and Poland.

Good point. This identity forms a backbone of the country. And currently Lithuania is trying to establish it. The problem is that it might be too harsh, which raises reaction on other states and vice versa. Just like you mentioned some polish hypocrisy.

But it is a hard thing to treat a nation equally, by not applying past parameters to present day. Also by knowing that they are not equal by power, size or even intellectual resources.

Lithuania is, by far, the most Catholic of the 3 Baltic states. Doesn't that mean anything to your badge culture?

This means a lot not only to the culture but to the very essence of what is the country itself.

Re-establishing common ground would be very difficult, and Russians are working hard to prevent this from happening.


It will take not years but decades to solve that all.

Interesting reasoning. Do you think that a strong common ground would be a good step? Or maybe this is unsolvable in a political level?

Problem is that Poles sees history differently to Lithuania's. For Poles Commonwealth was a great success, for them it was destruction of Lithuania. It's too big differences.

As I was learning history at school I was thrilled why are the topics after Lublin have less and less feeling of "great success", later that made sense to me. On the other hand I couldn't say that Lithuanians see that period as a destruction of Lithuania. The saddest thing for Lithuanians, in my opinion, is not that Poland was the bigger power of the Commonwealth but that Lithuanians elite were abandoning their identity.

This is still an interesting topic for me, and especially the period of the modern Lithuanian nation appearance. My second question would be about XIX century conservatism and conservatism tradition in the emerging countries of modern Lithuania and Poland.

Sadly The Commonwealth was eliminated by the time of the French revolution and the beginning of conservatism. But the identity never vanished and was constantly demonstrated in the uprisings. Even in the 1863 uprising there were more aristocratic "white's" and more democratic "red's", at least it was so in Lithuania. And then suddenly at the beginning at the XXth century nationalism takes top.

What was the effect of conservatism in occupied Commonwealth, especially the western parts of Poland? Was it the impetus for the uprisings? Was there a way for Lithuania to declare it's independence and construct it's modern nation in more conservative way? Or would it definitely have led to a union or even incorporation into Poland?

I would be glad if you would share your opinions.
29 Apr 2011
History / Poland Lithuania - current relations [124]

Thank you everybody for your answers.

Only general politics changed - Kaczyński's policy of strong Central Europe vs Tusk's policy of good relationship with Germany and Russia. Loss for Lithuania.

That explains a lot. I've heard of Kaczyński's and Tusk's rivalry. Is this shift of policy and confrontation visible clearly? Were those official views of the two?

- receiving back properties lost by Poles in Lithuania during WW2

This is an interesting problem. I do not know much about it and I could say that it is discussed less than others. The overall impression is that almost no lands are returned (not only to Poles, but to Lithuanians or Jewish people too). Have you had the same problems in Poland? If so how did it go?

On the other hand, they are trying to diminish the Polish influence in/on their country because they fear another Polish cultural colonization. That is why they are refusing to acknowledge the rights of Polish minority etc etc.

A very good point. I think Lithuanians in Poland consist less than 1% of the whole population. However 6% of Lithuania's population are Poles. Vilnius city municipality contains 19.4% Poles and Vilnius district - 62.5% according to 2001 Lithuanian census. Maybe the fear of polish cultural colonization is not present (because the gap between two cultures is not as big as it was), but Lithuanians definitely fear Polish influence.

I have to admit that I don't know the facts - but - are Poles in Lithuania enjoying the same liberties as Lithuanians in Poland (there is a small are north of Suwałki with Lithuanian majority)

I tend to think that Lithuanians in Poland have more liberties. If it is so then it illustrates the whole picture well. There are around 5000 Lithuanians and around 235000 of Poles in Lithuania. So there is "no danger" of giving Lithuanians their liberties, because they would never have even a small influence to Poland. Different with Poles in Lithuania. But the fact that Lithuanians in Poland claim that there are some problems with cultural preservation actually proves that Poland's policy towards Lithuania is not aggressive. Because if Poland would like to have bigger influence on Lithuania it should escalate these problems, favour Lithuanian minority with benefits and showcase it as an example.

That is a massive understatement. Lithuanian complex of Polish colonization is as big as Mount Everest.

Could you expand your thought? Why do you think it is like that?

One of the problems with this discussion is it confuses modern national identities with earlier identities.

Good point. Excuse me if I mixed up everything in my first post. In fact, I would say that imposing modern identities, circumstances or even way of thinking is one of the biggest mistake when disccusing about history. And it misleads the people and the whole discussion. That's why I intend to discuss the matters separately.

Today's Gazeta Wyborcza re-prints an open letter of Lithuanian intellectuals "Litwini do Litwinów"

That is very interesting. I found the Lithuanian version of this letter and it makes me curious why only these people signed it. I there some sort of polish intellectuals position concerning these issues?

Lietuva lietuviams.

that actually speaks for itself - if you exclaimed Polska dla Polaków in Poland you would be instantly deemed xenophobic nationalist (or worse)

Do you regard this as a victory or a loss? Maybe it is only a matter of ones beliefs, but do you not think that these accusations would be too radical? This is important because currently some Poles are appealing that Lithuania is breaking EU minorities laws. I agree that you need to follow and obey agreements, but you always need to see the whole picture. However that is why in my first post I mentioned that defending minorities laws could be used as a political weapon, but used in such a way to remind laws and justice.

I am not saying it is like that now, I'm only strengthening my main point. Maybe it would be easier to solve minorities problems if countries would neglect the instant deems of someone being xenophobic and promote patriotism, but at the same time raise the respect for minorities. Or do you think that patriotism and well being of minorities are incompatible?

This has unfortunately impeded the Lithuanians and rendered them incapable independent thought.

Maybe not only those things which you mentioned. But there is a huge problem of Lithuanians being incapable of independent thought. It is a serf/bondman syndrome. Are there any signs that Poles have the same problem?

Thinking more about the subject and discussing it with you I feel that a loss of respect of Polish and Lithuanian nations for each other is a harmful thing for both. The current problems could be solved somehow, but in my opinion they are not big enough to seriously damage Poles or Lithuanians lives, but it is big enough to cause moral degradation. Because if some future events would threaten our nations they could not trust each other properly.
26 Apr 2011
History / Poland Lithuania - current relations [124]

Dzien dobry.

First of all I want to explain the purpose of this thread. There are some issues (and they should increase constantly) about Poland Lithuania which I would like to discuss with your community.

I was reading your forum for quite a while and the reason why I chose "History" section is because in many cases the issues which I would like to discuss should appeal to historical background. Also because I believe that people, who could share the best thoughts and who should be the most interested by this thread are here.

One of the main goals of these discussions would be not to clear who is the smartest or something like that, but to share reliable information from original sources, that means you - poles.

There are several reasons why I am interested in Poland. I always was more or less intrigued by Poland and Lithuania history, but I became fascinated a few years ago. I feel proud not only by Lithuania's history, but by Poland's too. I wish to learn the polish language someday too.

Furthermore I live in Vilnius city, Salininkai (pol.:Soleniki) district. So, basically I am surrounded by our shared history, heritage and present day events.

The time for this thread might not be perfect, but I hope we could overcome this by discussing about these recent events. I mean the current down-grading relations between Poland and Lithuania.

As I live in VIlnius there are many poles and some russians living here. I'm happy to have the opportunity to live in such a place. I can say that lithuanians and poles get along very well. I have some polish friends and my personal experience is also very positive. Though I could say that sometimes poles spend more time among themselves, but it's natural.

On the other hand I could say that some lithuanians have the stereotypical pole view - somehow slithery. And sometimes (though this happens very rarely) poles are being insulted in some way by lithuanians.

Educated and wise people (for example in school or university during lectures) when they have an opportunity admires Poland and poles. (I intend to discuss that later. Especially about universities lectures and views)

The overall experience is that poles and lithuanians get along well.

Speaking about minorities rights it is a very tricky thing, in my opinion. Often they could be used not because of defending justice but rather as a political weapon.

The second interesting thing is the recent president shift in Poland. Lech Kaczyński was a conservative and a patriot, Bronisław Komorowski is more liberal. (correct me if I'm wrong). Is it not strange that the relations between two countries were better or even great, when Poland's president was a conservative patriot and after his death they started to worsen?

The official tone of Warsaw and Vilnius might not portray the picture very clearly (having in mind that some level of a propaganda war might exist), so I hope to hear your own opinion about these events.

There are few last things which I want to mention. My knowledge about Poland is limited so please, do not be offended if I will make a mistake about it. I would be grateful if the administrators, moderators and the whole community would understand me and would not move or delete this thread.

17 Sep 2010
History / Lwów, Wilno ... kresy - Poland have lost enormoust part of our heritage... [389]


I do respect polish people and their role in Lithuania's history, but people should move forward as somebody said. These talks about teritory aren't going to make anybody happy. We, lithuanians could compare our Grand Duchy's map and nowadays republic map and then brag about Hrodna, Brest and so on and so on.... And we sometimes do! Haha! How silly we are. Then disputes are beggining: what nation lived where and in what times.

Now speaking about Vilnius or Wilno for you. I think you're right about majority of poles before the war there. But do you really think it should belong to Poland? I'm just asking, no offence.
8 Aug 2010
History / United States of America Vs Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth [74]

Witam wszystkich!

Sokrates, it seems you know alot about Commonwealth, maybe you are historian? It's hard to imagine that your statements are wrong. I personaliy, just recently graduated school and don't know very much about history of Commonwealth (though it's very interesting).

But let us not drift away from the topic, maybe?

I noticed an interesting thing. In the Commonwealth one of the wars which disturbed the country was constant cossack uprisings (nowadays Ukraine, right?). So if they were a part of Commonwealth and started uprisings weren't it "freedom fights"? Because the Commonwealth was ethnically rich.

Why am I saying this? Beacause as Sokrates also mentioned ethnical diversity in the States is also high. So, basically what I'm trying to say is that the cossack uprisings would match for example mexicans uprisings in the States. And I don't see that happening. One more example why these two are different.

Maybe I'm wrong, maybe cossacks goals were different (as I remember they were also allying themselves with the russians). This is just an idea for comparing Commonwealth and the States.
6 Aug 2010
History / United States of America Vs Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth [74]

I won't talk about economics, war policy and other things (I agree that there are something alike and something not), but there is one big diference between these two countries.

The szlachta in Commonwealth were divided and weren't patriots anymore. Everybody was on their own. Creating their own confederations and always asking help from Russia, Prussia, Austria, Sweden and so on.

In my opinion most of americans (oligarchy or not) are patriots of their country. They never ask help of how to rule their country from for example Mexico or Canada.

And also I think if the commonwealth was degarding economically, loosing it's teritories and becoming less powerful BUT szlachta would have been patriots it wouldn't have been divided (or at least divided later)
19 May 2010
History / How Polish history is viewed by other countries textbooks [124]

Hello everybody.

I could share my experience about lithuanian textbooks, which I think are pretty accurate. It gives pretty much details about polish history. But the most important thing I think is not was is written, but how you interpret it. That's why you need a good teacher.