History / Poland Lithuania - current relations [124]


Thanks, I will ask someone to translate it.


Good point. This identity forms a backbone of the country. And currently Lithuania is trying to establish it. The problem is that it might be too harsh, which raises reaction on other states and vice versa. Just like you mentioned some polish hypocrisy.

But it is a hard thing to treat a nation equally, by not applying past parameters to present day. Also by knowing that they are not equal by power, size or even intellectual resources.


This means a lot not only to the culture but to the very essence of what is the country itself.


tere


Interesting reasoning. Do you think that a strong common ground would be a good step? Or maybe this is unsolvable in a political level?


As I was learning history at school I was thrilled why are the topics after Lublin have less and less feeling of "great success", later that made sense to me. On the other hand I couldn't say that Lithuanians see that period as a destruction of Lithuania. The saddest thing for Lithuanians, in my opinion, is not that Poland was the bigger power of the Commonwealth but that Lithuanians elite were abandoning their identity.

This is still an interesting topic for me, and especially the period of the modern Lithuanian nation appearance. My second question would be about XIX century conservatism and conservatism tradition in the emerging countries of modern Lithuania and Poland.

Sadly The Commonwealth was eliminated by the time of the French revolution and the beginning of conservatism. But the identity never vanished and was constantly demonstrated in the uprisings. Even in the 1863 uprising there were more aristocratic "white's" and more democratic "red's", at least it was so in Lithuania. And then suddenly at the beginning at the XXth century nationalism takes top.

What was the effect of conservatism in occupied Commonwealth, especially the western parts of Poland? Was it the impetus for the uprisings? Was there a way for Lithuania to declare it's independence and construct it's modern nation in more conservative way? Or would it definitely have led to a union or even incorporation into Poland?

I would be glad if you would share your opinions.

History / Poland Lithuania - current relations [124]

Thank you everybody for your answers.


That explains a lot. I've heard of Kaczyński's and Tusk's rivalry. Is this shift of policy and confrontation visible clearly? Were those official views of the two?


This is an interesting problem. I do not know much about it and I could say that it is discussed less than others. The overall impression is that almost no lands are returned (not only to Poles, but to Lithuanians or Jewish people too). Have you had the same problems in Poland? If so how did it go?


A very good point. I think Lithuanians in Poland consist less than 1% of the whole population. However 6% of Lithuania's population are Poles. Vilnius city municipality contains 19.4% Poles and Vilnius district - 62.5% according to 2001 Lithuanian census. Maybe the fear of polish cultural colonization is not present (because the gap between two cultures is not as big as it was), but Lithuanians definitely fear Polish influence.


I tend to think that Lithuanians in Poland have more liberties. If it is so then it illustrates the whole picture well. There are around 5000 Lithuanians and around 235000 of Poles in Lithuania. So there is "no danger" of giving Lithuanians their liberties, because they would never have even a small influence to Poland. Different with Poles in Lithuania. But the fact that Lithuanians in Poland claim that there are some problems with cultural preservation actually proves that Poland's policy towards Lithuania is not aggressive. Because if Poland would like to have bigger influence on Lithuania it should escalate these problems, favour Lithuanian minority with benefits and showcase it as an example.


Could you expand your thought? Why do you think it is like that?


Good point. Excuse me if I mixed up everything in my first post. In fact, I would say that imposing modern identities, circumstances or even way of thinking is one of the biggest mistake when disccusing about history. And it misleads the people and the whole discussion. That's why I intend to discuss the matters separately.


That is very interesting. I found the Lithuanian version of this letter and it makes me curious why only these people signed it. I there some sort of polish intellectuals position concerning these issues?


Do you regard this as a victory or a loss? Maybe it is only a matter of ones beliefs, but do you not think that these accusations would be too radical? This is important because currently some Poles are appealing that Lithuania is breaking EU minorities laws. I agree that you need to follow and obey agreements, but you always need to see the whole picture. However that is why in my first post I mentioned that defending minorities laws could be used as a political weapon, but used in such a way to remind laws and justice.

I am not saying it is like that now, I'm only strengthening my main point. Maybe it would be easier to solve minorities problems if countries would neglect the instant deems of someone being xenophobic and promote patriotism, but at the same time raise the respect for minorities. Or do you think that patriotism and well being of minorities are incompatible?


Maybe not only those things which you mentioned. But there is a huge problem of Lithuanians being incapable of independent thought. It is a serf/bondman syndrome. Are there any signs that Poles have the same problem?

Thinking more about the subject and discussing it with you I feel that a loss of respect of Polish and Lithuanian nations for each other is a harmful thing for both. The current problems could be solved somehow, but in my opinion they are not big enough to seriously damage Poles or Lithuanians lives, but it is big enough to cause moral degradation. Because if some future events would threaten our nations they could not trust each other properly.

History / Lwów, Wilno ... kresy - Poland have lost enormoust part of our heritage... [389]

Hello.

I do respect polish people and their role in Lithuania's history, but people should move forward as somebody said. These talks about teritory aren't going to make anybody happy. We, lithuanians could compare our Grand Duchy's map and nowadays republic map and then brag about Hrodna, Brest and so on and so on.... And we sometimes do! Haha! How silly we are. Then disputes are beggining: what nation lived where and in what times.

Now speaking about Vilnius or Wilno for you. I think you're right about majority of poles before the war there. But do you really think it should belong to Poland? I'm just asking, no offence.

History / United States of America Vs Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth [74]

Witam wszystkich!

Sokrates, it seems you know alot about Commonwealth, maybe you are historian? It's hard to imagine that your statements are wrong. I personaliy, just recently graduated school and don't know very much about history of Commonwealth (though it's very interesting).

But let us not drift away from the topic, maybe?

I noticed an interesting thing. In the Commonwealth one of the wars which disturbed the country was constant cossack uprisings (nowadays Ukraine, right?). So if they were a part of Commonwealth and started uprisings weren't it "freedom fights"? Because the Commonwealth was ethnically rich.

Why am I saying this? Beacause as Sokrates also mentioned ethnical diversity in the States is also high. So, basically what I'm trying to say is that the cossack uprisings would match for example mexicans uprisings in the States. And I don't see that happening. One more example why these two are different.

Maybe I'm wrong, maybe cossacks goals were different (as I remember they were also allying themselves with the russians). This is just an idea for comparing Commonwealth and the States.

History / United States of America Vs Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth [74]

I won't talk about economics, war policy and other things (I agree that there are something alike and something not), but there is one big diference between these two countries.

The szlachta in Commonwealth were divided and weren't patriots anymore. Everybody was on their own. Creating their own confederations and always asking help from Russia, Prussia, Austria, Sweden and so on.

In my opinion most of americans (oligarchy or not) are patriots of their country. They never ask help of how to rule their country from for example Mexico or Canada.

And also I think if the commonwealth was degarding economically, loosing it's teritories and becoming less powerful BUT szlachta would have been patriots it wouldn't have been divided (or at least divided later)

History / How Polish history is viewed by other countries textbooks [124]

Hello everybody.

I could share my experience about lithuanian textbooks, which I think are pretty accurate. It gives pretty much details about polish history. But the most important thing I think is not was is written, but how you interpret it. That's why you need a good teacher.