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Posts by sjam  

Joined: 13 Jan 2009 / Male ♂
Last Post: 3 Dec 2009
Threads: Total: 2 / Live: 0 / Archived: 2
Posts: Total: 541 / Live: 146 / Archived: 395

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sjam   
25 Feb 2009
History / Polish weapons and militaria - got any? [153]

No hard feelings...heh

No, none at all..

But if you are saying that Gualiter Forster was not persuing (in Gdansk Pomerania ) the compulsorily regististration of all Poles as German, and that all men of military age were not subsequently conscripted into the German Army then we have learnt something new from you. I expect Gauleiter Greiser would also have been surprised to learn Forster was not persuing the compulsorily regististration of all Poles to Volksliste as he had complained to Himmler!
sjam   
25 Feb 2009
History / Polish weapons and militaria - got any? [153]

Of course, officially all people in those territories were counted as Poles by the polish officials. :)

I repeat: Such was the scale of Gualiter Forster's registration policy for all Poles in his juristriction that Gauleiter Greiser of Reichsgau Wartheland complained to Himmler that Forster was indescriminately allowing Poles with no claim to German ethnicity on the Volksliste!

Unless you are saying Gauleiter Greiser was a Pole ;-)

No hard feelings but I am inclined to believe Korbońnski rather than you ;-)

See? As I said..."allowing" instead of "forcing" or "press ganging".

Maybe this is lost in translation also?
sjam   
25 Feb 2009
History / Polish weapons and militaria - got any? [153]

"Poles" conscripted to the Wehrmacht had to bring evidence that they were ethnic Germans.

According to Stefan Korboński (a Polish statesman and a leader of the underground resistance against the Germans in World War II) in 1942 all Poles of military age in the western territories that had been incorporated into the Reich were rounded up and placed on the Volksliste , and automatically drafted into the German Army.

90,000 of these press-ganged Wehrmacht conscripts later served with the Polish Forces.

In Gdańsk (Danzig) and Pomerania all Poles were automatically registered as German by Gauleiter Forster. By end of WWII there were 400,000 Poles conscripted into German Army and Organisation Todt (a technical paramiltary organisation). Such was the scale of Gualiter Forster's registration policy for all Poles in his juristriction that Gauleiter Greiser of Reichsgau Wartheland complained to Himmler that Forster was indescriminately allowing Poles with no claim to German ethnicity on the Volksliste!

Where were the 95% as it was about fighting the Germans?
Highly doubtful, especially as Uncle Joe and Uncle Sam were if not allies anymore not in a hot war with each other...

This bit seems lost in translation to me?
sjam   
25 Feb 2009
History / Polish weapons and militaria - got any? [153]

Interesting. It would have been a blood bath though.

Yes, a lot of blood would have been spilt.
It is a very interesting subject, well to me at least, because I believe Anders contemplated that what would happen on the push towards Poland is that the ranks of a 'united' liberation Polish Forces would have picked up hundreds of thousands of new recruits from the liberated Polish POWs, forced workers and DPs that were also in Germany and also by the desertion of 150,000 plus Poles conscripted into the Red Army including those that were former prisoners in USSR but did not leave with Anders during the evactuations after the 'amnsety'.

There is every reason to suppose that this plan could have worked as this was what happened with the Polish 2nd Corps in Italy which was reinforced substantially by Poles conscripted into the Wermacht and were taken prisoner in Italy who after screening joined Anders' Army in the liberation of Italy.

I also have a declassified secret US Office of Research Intelligence (precursor to CIA) report in which Anders is recorded as telling the US ambassador in London that he anticipated that 95% of Poles in Poland would rise up against the Soviet army occupying Poland to support his Polish army in the liberation of Poland. Given the anticommunist resistance by the majority of the Polish population this is not an unreasonable assumption for Anders to have made at the time.

Source:
General Wladyslaw Anders' Polish Second Corps as a source of international misunderstanding : Department of State (US). Office of Research Intelligence R&A;;3522, 1 1946 (Microfilm).
sjam   
25 Feb 2009
History / Polish weapons and militaria - got any? [153]

sjam:
The British government of the time were very aware of Anders plans and made damn sure than everything was done by both Britain and US to stop Anders creating such a united Polish 'Free' Force on German soil

This is indeed a revelation. Any chance of posting copies of the papers?

This is just one of a number of declassified 'Secret' British Foreign Office documents (this one dated 5 March 1945) I found in London PRO archives that clearly shows that the British Foreign Office were willing to do anything it took (even working against prime-minister Churchill) to stop Gen. Anders from stationing the entire Polish Forces of the West and Anders' Army in occupied Germany in readiness for a push through Germany to liberate Poland from the Soviets.

The views and policy expressed in this document by F.O. officials was in my opinion heavily influenced by the infiltration of the British F.O. by Soviet agents such as Kim Philby, George Blake and other members of the 'Cambridge Five' who held senior positions of power in the British establisment.

The highlighting in the document is mine.
sjam   
22 Feb 2009
History / Can anyone from Poland tell me about Auschwitz and The Ghetto? [582]

Mulit-national entities pay local taxes. So in your example if the corporate taxes from selling Coke in Saudi Arabia are used in part by the Saudi Regime to support extremist Islam then I would say yes selling Coke in Saudi Arabia is funding extremism. Just as selling Coke to the Nazis was supporting the Nazis through corporate taxation did as did IBM's selling of data entry systems support it through export sales of goods.

If selling products did not support terrorism then why does/did the US of recent years have an embargo on certain products that cannot be exported to some countries if these countries are deemed to have links with terrorism etc?
sjam   
20 Feb 2009
History / Can anyone from Poland tell me about Auschwitz and The Ghetto? [582]

Harry this is exactly why I personally believe there should be some distiction made between the terminology used to describe both of these types of Nazi camps and the post-war Polish internment/concentration camps-what ever they might be called.

For example; the principles involved in setting up the Warsaw Rising Museum did some research which clearly showed that the majority of those outside of Poland when asked about the Warsaw Urprising overwhelmingly linked these keywords with the Jewish Ghetto Uprising of 1943 and not the Warsaw Uprising 1944, in fact many had not even heard about the 1944 uprising! So they made the decision to differentiate the two uprisings (over a period of time) by refering to the 1944 Uprising as the 'Warsaw Rising' so there would be a distinct difference in public perception.... and no it wasn't because Norman Davies used it in his book title in case anyone asks:-)

I am not saying you should accept my interpretation nor do I see what you are saying as anti-polish and if you want to call them post-war Polish concentration camps this is fine by me as I understand what your are saying; but arriving at terms of reference that are easliy understood by all is always difficult.
sjam   
20 Feb 2009
History / Can anyone from Poland tell me about Auschwitz and The Ghetto? [582]

That most people might equate concentration camps with the Aktion Reinhard camps is as irrelevant

Actually not, if you want to help people understand the difference between Nazi concentration camps and extermination camps and those Post-war Polish internment/concentration camps.

For example I believe Treblinka and Sobibor were purely extermination camps whereas Auschwitz was both an exterminantion camp and a concentration camp; for the majority of Jews it was an extermination camp, whereas for the majority of non-Jews is was a concentration camp ie; Polish political prisoners like Pilecki and my Warsaw lawyer's grandfather and my own grandmother at Ravensbruck; were not automatically faced with selection for death or work unlike the Jews arriving at Auschwitz and other concentration camps.

That is my view only.
sjam   
20 Feb 2009
History / Can anyone from Poland tell me about Auschwitz and The Ghetto? [582]

Well we're going to check this in practice since i'm before going to have a beer i'll sidestep to our local police office, i called them this morning seeing as board moderation is twiddling its thumbs and not reacting and you're having fun.

King of comedy!

So here's what we gonna do

Well Sokrates if you see medics at the Police station holding a big syringe ... look out as they'll have come for you :-))
sjam   
20 Feb 2009
History / Can anyone from Poland tell me about Auschwitz and The Ghetto? [582]

It looks to me that the guy from H & H is talking about the Nazi-era camps

Yes he was. But I was only asking specifically if that using the term "polish concentration camps" is highly illegal as Sokrates has been claiming.

Well that point is cleared up—Sokrates statement is ficticious.

Re-post WWII Polish camps: I am with you as far as the 'run by Poles, Poles, guarded by Poles, managed by Poles and existed at the order of a Polish government (which is made up of Poles)', but I personally would use term Polish internment camps rather than concentration camps as most people equate concentration camps=extermination camps that were part of the Nazi Holocaust. Whereas post-war Polish internment camps/concentration camps, were not, in my opinion entirely same as these Nazi camps. I agree with the point you are trying to make but not the term itself. Also can't argue against the facts that the concentration camps were used prior to the Holocaust and afterwards.

"defamation of the polish nation"

Now you move sideways once more ...

You stated specifically it was 'highly illegal to use the term Polish Cocentration Camps' —which is proved a fiction and I value our lawyers opinion any day of the week rather than your fictions.
sjam   
20 Feb 2009
History / Can anyone from Poland tell me about Auschwitz and The Ghetto? [582]

You do realise Harry that using the term "polish concentration camps" is highly illegal that includes Bereza Kartuska ?

You have said this a couple of times so I decided to ask our company lawyers at Hogan & Hartson in Warsaw for some clarification:

"Is use the term 'Polish concentration camps' illegal in Poland? I have never heard this before and wondered if you might know if there a law that bans the use of 'Polish concentration Camps'?"

There is no such legal ban in Poland. Obviously, as you may imagine, the Polish public opinion is not happy with the extensive use of this term in Western media. My personal feelings are hurt as well, being myself a grandson of a non-Jewish Auschwitz prisoner. For some years now here has been a massive campaign by "Rzeczpospolita" daily, aimed at increasing awareness in Poland of the use of this term in the US and Western Europe. As the result, whenever the use of this phrase is spotted, Polish consulates and other diplomatic representative offices usually react and apologies and corrections are requested from newspapers. It is difficult to assess, though, if this systematic approach contributes to reduction of this phenomenon.

sjam   
20 Feb 2009
History / Can anyone from Poland tell me about Auschwitz and The Ghetto? [582]

You silly man.

You asked this pumkin, warm milk drinking, silly man for that source about a polish boy who joined the Polish Jews smuggling food into the ghetto without asking for gold in return and I gave it. Seems my reply was deleted by mods. So here it is again.

Janek : a gentile in the Warsaw Ghetto / Jan Kostanski Melbourne : Jan Kostanski, 1998.

You also said no memoirs have anything to say about the Polish Blueys corruption and brutallity against the Jews in Warsaw ghetto. I gave you just one which also seems to be deleted by mods (?) so here it is again:

WHY, OH GOD, WHY? HALINA GORCEWICZ
references to Polish 'Blueys' can be found throught the book:
page 70:

Szmulek explained that one of the "blueys" on Dzielna St. was "all right". For a pack of cigarettes and 50 zlotys for himself he made it possible for the boys to pass these parcels over.

page 160

The area is then surrounded with "blueys" and "greens", often with the participation of the Gestapo.

Also:

I'm still waiting for your source of the lie you posted that Polish police were volunteers.

Secret City: The Hidden Jews of Warsaw, 1940-1945 by GS Paulson page 145.
Poulson states that the Polish state police force in Warsaw was increased by 400 new volunteer recruits in April 1942 making 12% of the force.

The Blue Police and Blackmail.
It was not collaborating with the Germans that the Blue police posed the greatest threat to the Jews, however, but rather their freelance activities... Policemen that had once supplemented their incomes with bribes taken from food-smugglers now found a lucrative substitute in extorting money form Jews in hiding. Such instances are found frequently in memoirs.

page 145.

Answer this. Which police force did more damage to the ghetto population? Granatowa or the Jewish ghetto police?

Ringelbulm: Relations
page 133-4
The Polish Blue Police, commonly called the Blue or uniformed police in order to avoid using the term 'Polish' has played the most lamentable role in the extermination of the Jews of Poland. The uniformed police has been the enthusiastic executor of all the German directives regarding the Jews. The powers of the uniformed police in the sphere of collaborating with the Germans concerning the Jews were as follows: (1) guarding the exit gates of the ghetto as well as the walls and fences enclosing the Ghettos or Jewish districts; (2) participating in the "resettlement actions" in the capacity of catchers, escorts; etc; (3) participating in the tracking down of Jews after "resettlement actions"; (4) shooting Jews sentenced to death by the Germans.

However like all groups there were good as well as bad. I have never denied that there were good 'Blueys' as there were Jewish Police but you have consistently tried to make out there were none as bad as the Jewish Police... which clearly is not true. You have consistently said there we NO 'Bluey' volunteers which is also economical with the truth!

Hmmm. Presumably you mean pre-WWII, in which case ALL money going into Germany (not just American) was "funding Auschwitz" if you will.

Afraid not JohnP. USA was still selling Coke-Cola to the Hitler youth (and even advertised in Hitler Youth magazines) until America deaclared was on Germany in 1941 following Pear Harbor. IBM punch-card data collection machines were used by Eichman to record personal details of Jews during the Holocuast.

NYTimes Friday, February 20, 2009

In Germany, the period presented marketing problems.

query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9F0CE6D6153CF936A2575BC0A965958260

But you are right pre-war most large multinational companies (from US, UK, France, Holland etc, ) had sales operations or German operating divisions that indirectly or directly funded the Nazi state and its concentration camps in 1930's Germany.
sjam   
19 Feb 2009
History / Can anyone from Poland tell me about Auschwitz and The Ghetto? [582]

Yes, who?

The food smugglers were mainly Jewish children from the ghetto itself not Poles. Though there is one excellent memoir of a non-jewish boy joining the Jewish boys smuggling food from on the 'Aryan' side into the ghetto, but he was not taking gold or other payments for his smuggling. Title escapes me.
sjam   
19 Feb 2009
History / Can anyone from Poland tell me about Auschwitz and The Ghetto? [582]

I am sure they did, even though Kossak- Szczucka was ani- semitic - that is very Christian;)

Miranda your point was that:

don't mix religion with it. She was a good person because she was a good person, not because she was a Christian.

and my reply showed quite clearly that religious belief did play a part in her actions for good. So mixing religion with it was not mixing but a fact borne out in action.

And yet despite being an openly antisemite Kossak- Szczucka did not believe that Polish Jews should be treated as less than human. I see no conflict with this view and she was not trying to murder them or extort money from them in fact she did the opposite. So what does that tell you!

What was the penalty for smuggling? What was the penalty for aiding Jews?

German threats of execution didn't seem to stop women like Irena Sendlerowa or Zofia Kossak-Szczucka saving several thousand Polish Jews from death. They were not they only ones. Just read He Who Saves One Life by Kazimierz Iranek-Osmecki and you will see not every Pole was out to extort from the Polish Jews no matter what the very real German threats were for doing so.
sjam   
19 Feb 2009
History / Can anyone from Poland tell me about Auschwitz and The Ghetto? [582]

How much gold Irena Sendlerowa demanded to help the hundereds of Polish Jews she saved.... none!

That there were Jewish collaborators is not a secret if it was then you would not have been able to copy and paste references to it. It is not secret either that Poles also collaborated and exploited Jews either. I personally have acknowledged both throughout this thread. The fact that Jewish memoirs mention Jewish collabortaion often must tell you that even Jews recognise the wrongs committed by some Jews!

It seems you cannot acknowledge the fact that Poles were also as much involved in the self-serving exploitation of the ghetto Jews, as the Jewish Police, the 13's et al.

To a moral person there is a difference between extorting over-inflated price from a starving person in exchange for food to save that life than a fair trade. If such a trade could ever be fair. There is no doubting the fact that prices were extortionate because the Polish Jews had no choice to pay that price or starve to death and this fact was ruthlessly exploited by both Polish 'Blueys' on the ghetto gates, the Jewish Police, the German guards, plus 13's etc., And who was risking their lives doing the smuggling?

Of course you could say that since the ghetto Jews were going have to pay any price it might as well be to me... its going to happen anyway and of course they can't eat gold or their fur-coats, artworks or jewellery, boots, silks, and everything else they had until they starved to death.
sjam   
19 Feb 2009
History / Can anyone from Poland tell me about Auschwitz and The Ghetto? [582]

don't mix religion with it. She was a good person because she was a good person, not because she was a Christian.

This is a statement of fact. Irena Sendlerowa was a Polish Christian with strong Christian beliefs and was responsible for saving Polish Jews. Read her story in her words: MATKA DZIECI HOLOCAUSTU.

She was instrumental in Zegota as was Zofia Kossak-Szczucka an active antisemite but devout Catholic who because of her Christian beliefs helped save hundreds of Polish Jews.

Kossak-Szczucka saw this largely as an issue of religious ethics. "Our feelings toward Jews have not changed," she wrote. "We do not stop thinking of them as political, economic and ideological enemies of Poland." But, she wrote, this does not relieve Polish Catholics of their duty to oppose the crimes being committed in their country.

"We are required by God to protest," she wrote. "God who forbids us to kill. We are required by our Christian consciousness. Every human being has the right to be loved by his fellow men. The blood of the defenceless cries to heaven for revange. Those who oppose our protest, are not Catholics."

So miranda it seems Christian religion and values did play a part in these women's actions after all...

... nor was it for payment in gold either!
sjam   
19 Feb 2009
History / Can anyone from Poland tell me about Auschwitz and The Ghetto? [582]

I wonder how much gold Irena Sendlerowa demanded to help the hundereds of Polish Jews she saved.... none!

She must have been rich living a life of plenty then... No!

She was a simple Polish Christian, with a gracious soul.
sjam   
19 Feb 2009
History / Can anyone from Poland tell me about Auschwitz and The Ghetto? [582]

You seem to want to say something, but just don't know how to do it.

Here it is again.

How many times did Nazis and their 'Bluey' collaborators (and Jewish Police. 13's et al) try and ease their consciences with that 'you can't eat gold' excuse.

No you can't eat gold and I believe you are that person that took your grandfather's gold ring in exchange for plums... because afterall without smuggling the people would have starved.

Harry/Sjam claims it was a bad thing to smuggle a scarce resource that could not be simply donated since there wasnt enough around even for Poles.

But there was obvioulsy enough food to go around to sell for gold which couldn't be eaten by those Poles who didn't have enough food to go around?

like beating up a cripple.

Telling choice of words :-)))
sjam   
19 Feb 2009
History / Can anyone from Poland tell me about Auschwitz and The Ghetto? [582]

I am immoral and you are not familiar with this subject either. My grandfather gave his wedding band for a few plums during the evacuation of Warsaw. You can't eat gold, brainiac.

How many times did Nazis and their 'Bluey' collaborators (and Jewish Police. 13'set al) try and ease their consciences with that 'you can't eat gold' excuse.

No you can't eat gold and I believe you are that person that took your grandfather's gold ring in exchange for plums... because afterall without smuggling the people would have starved.

BTW:

You have seen my reference, which is a book on the subject

You just copied and pasted a reference you found to a book; not the page itself from the book which shows Franks order document. If anyone has this, which I don't, scan page 83 and post it please.
sjam   
19 Feb 2009
History / Can anyone from Poland tell me about Auschwitz and The Ghetto? [582]

Sir Timothy John Berners-Lee, OM, KBE, FRS, FREng, FRSA (born 8 June, 1955) is an English computer scientist and MIT professor credited with inventing the World Wide Web.

God bless this Brit for his inventiveness and giving us all the opportunity to be together this fine sunny day! Is he a 'Jew' —I bet he is :-)
sjam   
19 Feb 2009
History / Can anyone from Poland tell me about Auschwitz and The Ghetto? [582]

The Oxford English Dictionary, 2nd ed. defines concentration camp as: a camp where non-combatants of a district are accommodated, such as those instituted by Lord Kitchener during the South African war of 1899-1902; one for the internment of political prisoners, foreign nationals, etc., esp. as organized by the Nazi regime in Germany before and during the war of 1939-45.

Similar camps existed earlier (such as the US concentration camps for Cherokee and other Native Americans in the 1830s, in Cuba (1868-78), and in the Philippines (1898-1901) by Spain under the Restoration and the US respectively[5]), the English term "concentration camp" was first used to describe camps operated by the British in South Africa during the 1899-1902 Second Boer War[6]. Ostensibly conceived as a form of humanitarian aid to the families whose farms had been destroyed in the fighting, the camps were used to confine and control large numbers of civilians as part of a scorched earth tactic.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concentration_camp#Concentration_camps

No systematic brutality or torture against the Boers in these concentration camps mentioned here??

The last time concentration camps were used by the British was the forced but relatively peaceful relocation of hundreds of thousands of ethnic Chinese squatters from the edge of the Malayan jungle to "New Villages" during the "Malayan Emergency" to choke off supply and support for the Malayan Communist Party.

And why did Polish authorities spend so much time trying to extradite a Jewish Pole from the UK (Wolińska) but made no effort to try the Catholic Poles who took part in the Fieldorf 'trial' and live/lived in Poland

Or for Pilecki's state murder?

Wait on! Because Poland is still a communist state controlled by Polish Jews!
sjam   
19 Feb 2009
History / Can anyone from Poland tell me about Auschwitz and The Ghetto? [582]

You are sad. Did you come up with that one all by yourself? Try this:

Do you have this book? Does page 83 reprint this Frank oder document or is it just a reference to another reference?

From the same wiki source for Polish Bule Police.

According to the German plan, the police force was to consist of approximately 12,000 officers, but the actual number of its cadre was much lower.[4][5] However, some sources put the numbers as high as 14,300.[6] The Encyclopedia of the Holocaust reports its manpower as 8,700 in February 1940 and states that it reached its peak in 1943 with 16,000 members.[7]

If the death penalty was ordered for former Polish Police failing to collaborate with the Nazis in 1939 then why do these wiki article sources state there were 8,700 "Blueys' in 1940 rising to 16,000 in 1943? Was this doubling of manpower because of executions of Polish Police during the intervening years since 1939 giving rise to greater fears amongst those who had until then not collaborated with the Nazis? If so where are these executions?

sjam:
The story of the 13's like that of the Polish Blue Police,

It isn't. 13 and Żagiew were Jewish Gestapo agents. Volunteers.

Just like those Polish Blue Police that were involved in the bribary, smuggling, corruption and murder of Polish Jews, the 13 and Żagiew Jewish Gestapo agents were all self-serving opportunists. If as you say the Polish Blue Police were there under pain of death they weren't forced to be involved the brutal exploitation of the ghetto inhabitants. They volunteered themsleves into it.

So? Without smuggling the people would have starved.

This totally moronic statement says a lot about you as a person.

... Sell me your gold watch for a slice of bread or I'll watch you starve to death....

... I'll sell you my rope to help save you from drowning!

That is probably an acceptable position for you to adopt, but not for a moral person!
sjam   
19 Feb 2009
History / Can anyone from Poland tell me about Auschwitz and The Ghetto? [582]

Another part of the Warsaw Ghetto story:

The Jewish Order Police ((or Jewish Ghetto Police force) headquarters were located at Ogrodowa Street, which backed on to Chlodna Street. Adam Czerniakow noted in his diary on the 11 December 1941:

“In the morning at the Community. I inspected with Szerynski the new headquarters of the Order Service at Chlodna Street.” The Jewish Order Police and the Polish “Blue” Police played a key role in the smuggling carried out through the walls. The Jewish policemen found it to be a profitable business, whilst the Polish police, were also able to make a profit out of the smuggling."

The Blue Police or 'Blueys' as they were known by the Polish Jews were a Polish collaborationist police force in the German occupied area of Poland. It was created by Nazi-Germany as an auxiliary paramilitary police force in order free up German Police for othet tasks. Firstly the Polish 'Blueys' were used in criminal cases then it was later supposed to used to prevent smuggling (but in fact as Czerniakow noted they were involve in smuggling rather tha preventing it!) and they were to be used in policing the Jewish population in the ghettos. The Blue Police were also involved in round-ups and beatings as were the Jewish Ghetto Police themselves. The Blue Police were also involved in numerous killings of Jews. It is claimed that the Polish Blue Police were forced to collaborate with the Germans or face death but there is no documenatry evidence to support this claim.

It should be noted that some officers of the Polish Blue police were awarded the Righteous Among the Nations award for their help in rescuing Polish Jews.

The story of the 13's like that of the Polish Blue Police, the Jewish Ghetto Police and Polish blackmailers (known as szmalcowniki) who all exploited and brutalised Polish Jews for their own immoral and self-serving ends is an important aspect of the Nazi Holocaust.
sjam   
18 Feb 2009
History / Can anyone from Poland tell me about Auschwitz and The Ghetto? [582]

Your wasting your time on this infinite loop of the discredited, been there before on different thread. Infinite loop of the discredited... been there before on different thread infinite loop of the discredited, been there before on different thread infinite loop of the discredited...

Must be in living in Cupertino or Milton Keynes:-)
sjam   
18 Feb 2009
History / Can anyone from Poland tell me about Auschwitz and The Ghetto? [582]

Can you honestly say, under the same circumstances that you would not have done anything to keep your family safe, warm and fed? It's really easy to say how a person might react in a situation, but until you have walked in those shoes, you just cant.

I do have some little knowledge of how it might feel to be in this situation from my late father who was deported to Germany as forced worker in German munitions plant at Nurnberg-Feucht (MUNA-Feucht) as a 14 year old boy from Warsaw in August 1942. My grandmother a kindergarten teacher aged 43 survived KZ Ravensbruck (where she was deported to from Warsaw in April 1941) and then she was transported to KZ Sachsenhausen at some point in 1944 and then onto a sub-camp of KZ Sachsenhausen called Genthin where she was sent in October 1942, to a munitions plant where Polish women were worked to death at the rate of 500+ per month. But I have no direct experience of the life-threating fear that they must of felt and suffered at the time.

I do not blame anyone for acting in their family's best interests or for self-preservation. But it is not right to point at one group ie. Jewish police being responsible for evils against Warsaw ghetto Jews and not also include those Polish Blue police and German guards who were involved in the well published corruption and brutal exploitation of the Jews of the Warsaw ghetto for personal gain rather than purely self-preservation. To me that there is a difference.
sjam   
18 Feb 2009
History / Can anyone from Poland tell me about Auschwitz and The Ghetto? [582]

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bereza_Kartuska_Detention_Camp

The inspiration for the establishment of a detention centre for political prisoners at Bereza Kartuzka came from Hermann Göring's during his visit to Poland in 1934

The number of deaths in detention was kept artificially low by releasing prisoners who were in poor health.

A number of modern non-Soviet sources have also characterized the facility as a concentration camp, including Yale University professor Timothy Snyder, the Library of Congress, and the Polish Nobel prize-winning author Czesław Miłosz.

OUN members who were incarcerated at Bereza Kartuska have testified to the use there of torture. There were frequent beatings (with boards being placed against inmates' backs and struck with hammers), forced labor, constant harassment, the use of solitary confinement without provocation, punishment for inmates' use of the Ukrainian language, etc.

sjam   
18 Feb 2009
History / Can anyone from Poland tell me about Auschwitz and The Ghetto? [582]

Of course you should mention that polish "blue pollice" would get executed down to a man if it refused, it wasnt exactly willing.

Please. The Polish 'Blueys' weren't forced into extortion rackets; taking of bribes; beatings etc., in the ghetto and neither were the Jewish Ghetto police, nor the 13's, nor the German guards; they were all willing and eager self-serving criminal participants in the exploitation and ultimate destruction of the ghetto inhabitants.

Where is your documentary evidence that the Polish 'Blueys' were forced to police the Warsaw ghetto and take part in the corruption rackets?
sjam   
18 Feb 2009
History / Can anyone from Poland tell me about Auschwitz and The Ghetto? [582]

They were policed by the Jewish police, who were very cruel to their fellow men. In 1942, the deportations started. The Jewish police helped the Germans to load the trains to Treblinka.

Where is the balance in that statement?
Did Polish teachers not teach you about the Polish 'Blueys'?

Polish 'Blueys' also helped Jewish ghetto police with deportations; policing the ghettos; extortion rackets; bribary and brutality against ghetto inhabitants? The 'Blueys' weren't standing there issuing parking tickets.

Fiish, if you are Jewish you might want to drop the subject unless you have a thick skin as many will deny the Jewish Holocaust happened at all.
sjam   
10 Feb 2009
News / Poland Should Beef Up Military [286]

Today is Feb. 10, 1940. My family were stuffed in cattle cars and sent to Siberia today. Four of them lost their lives. I ask that you light a candle for them

Amen to that.