Salary and cost of living information - Krakow

Getting angry, Dom? This 'bull$hitter' actually works in this field right now - part of my job is to do with postgraduate students from Africa, some of whom go to study in Europe (including Poland), and knows whereof he speaks.


Oh dear.

And you're just an ordinary Joe, over in America who hasn't been to Warsaw or Krakow dor several years - you'd be surprised at how fast it changes.

As I say, the poster interested in life in Krakow or elsewhere, costs, work, etc, should make contact with overseas students who are in PL now - listen to what they are actually saying and doing. There are several appropriate fora - a quick search on google will bring them up.

@jon357

Half of the third-world undergraduates who start in October will be gone before Christmas. Easter at the latest. Close to 100% for those at private schools. Most will abscond to the UK or other richer western European countries. Many before the sun rises on the first day of school.

For graduate students, the odds are probably worse.

About 10%, 20% tops, will finish their studies, practically all of whom come from families that can afford to pay for their studies and stay in full. The other 30 to 40% will fall out along the way because they can't afford it and can't find a job, or because they realize that a diploma from an English-language course at a Polish university is not worth all that much on the job market, in Poland or elsewhere. Most will abscond to the West. The rest will go home broken and broke.

Education for foreigners in Poland is by and large a scam. Even for Poles, it leaves a lot to be desired. That's why I'm paying out of pocket for my Polish protege to study diplomacy at Kings in London, and got a full-ride scholarship for my other Polish protege to study engineering in the States.

You lose credibility when you (greatly) overstate the probability of third-world students finding jobs in Poland, using words like "many" or "thousands", when "very, very few" and "dozens" are closer to the mark.

My advice will always remain: If you can afford it, go to a good university in the States, the UK, the other English-speaking countries, the richer EU countries, Japan or South Korea. If you can't, study at the best university you can in your own country or region. Studying in countries like Poland is a poor investment and a waste of time and money, unless you are independently wealthy and just want to goof around in "Europe" for a few years. And, most of all, study something serious that will actually help you get a good job.

So you don't know, do you. Most are keen to stay and do just that. I suspect your 'information' is at best out of date, at best made up from nowhere.


You definitely don't know. Retention rates are good - and this is monitored by the Ministry of Education.


No - it's a growing area.

The OP, and the other poster didn't ask for the opinions of some irrelevant person on a different continent, they wanted to know about costs of living in Krakow. It's a city (like Warsaw and increasingly Wroclaw) where people are coming to from across the world to study, to work and to live. The best source of information, as I've said is one of the many fora (findable on google) for people who are doing that now, especially those for overseas students and for the growing Indian community.

Over the past couple of years, the number of overseas students has grown - their courses are validated by the appropriate bodies, and they choose a country at the heart of Europe where living costs (and course costs) are relatively modest compared to Western Europe.

No matter what a fantasist in the boondocks of America says or thinks about non-existent 'proteges', the education sector is growing in Poland, the work opportunities for foreigners are growing, and despite the modest salaries in Krakow, etc (though still good in comparison to many parts of the world where there are far fewer opportunities), people continue to come.

The modest cost of living, and the chance to live in a growing economy are only part of this.

That is a myth. The cost of living is staggeringly high compared to local wages. Far higher than in the States. The cost of living is low only if you are being paid Western wages. Again, misinformation like that reduces your credibility even more.

There you go again, out of date and inaccurate information, from someone on a different continent who gets angry when he's called out on his nonsense.

If the cost of living were "staggeringly high compared to local wages." we wouldn't be seeing such an influx of people from other countries (who get paid 'local wages').

Poland is a growing economy. Plenty happening at the moment, and more and more people coming to live, work and study - the numbers are really growing at the moment.

The only influx you're seeing is Ukrainians, for whom Poland is actually not that bad a deal solely because of geography and language, and a trickle of third-worlders who are interested in Poland solely as a way to get into the richer countries of the EU. That includes the overwhelming bulk of the students. As for those IT engineers from India, most will move on to greener pastures within a year or two, and precious few, if any, will hit the five-year mark. Practically none have any intention of settling in Poland.

As for out Nigerian OP, there is practically zero chance that he will be able to finish his studies in Poland if he cannot pay 100% of his studies and stay on his own without working, and practically zero chance that he would be able to find work of any kind. There is no point in putting lipstick on that there pig.

How would you know what we're seeing?


Is this a problem for you? It certainly isn't for them.


Given that you know next to nothing about his circumstances etc, and almost nothing about the current situation for students in Poland, you should perhaps hesitate before commenting on things outwith your knowledge.

As I've said already, he should contact people already studying in the city or institution he is interested in, to ask them about cost of living, whether they work or not, how much money they get etc. There are fora for this and they are easy to find and join. I have strongly suggested he do this, something that even you would consider a good idea. The growth of the internet means that people can find out information from people in their situation, rather than rely on hysterical comments from some ordinary Joe somewhere in America with a rich fantasy life and opinions on things he has no current experience of.

I worked twelve years at Polish universities. And your assertion that the situation has changed so radically in three short years from a third-rate *at best) university system into a veritable land flowing with milk and honey is patently absurd, It will take thirty years for Polish universities to achieve second-class status, if all goes well. Same with the employment situation. Your assertion that the country has magically transformed from an employment wasteland into a land dripping with golden opportunities in three short years is also patently absurd. Same with the number of (non-Ukrainian) foreigners. Your assertion that the country changed from a practically monolithic monoculture to "cosmopolitan" status in three short years just beggars belief.

Changes I can believe. But changes of the magnitude you assert are just plain silly fantasies. Especially with PiS in charge.

As you've been told before, the numbers are increasing fast, Poland is growing as a place to live, to work, to study - the cost of courses and the cost of living is part of that, as well as the possibility to get a visa.

And despite your claimed 'experience' (others here who remember you from your relatively short time in Wroclaw though not necessarily with your time in a small town with no university have questioned this by PM), those of us who are currently involved in one way or another with overseas students, will tell you that things are growing very fast, and that the cost of living remains relatively the same.


Who claimed that? Warsaw is increasingly cosmopolitan - and yes, over the past few years it has changed hugely as befits a growing economy. Other cities (including Krakow, the subject of this thread) are growing at their own rate - the influx of foreign students from around the world, attracted by the cost of courses, the ease of visas, the cost of living and the government validated and moderated courses is testimony to this.

However much you dislike it.

Get real. Not that fast, except for the Ukrainians. Your wild exaggerations destroy your credibility.


Eight years. Probably longer than you been in Poland.


Think again. SGGH has two of its main institutes there.

I'd love to see Poland improve a lot. It's where I'm probably going to retire. But it has a long way to go. And no, it hasn't gone as far as you say in just the past three years. Come on, do you expect me to believe that the clowns in PiS worked a miracle? Get real.

Absolute accuracy - Polish cities are changing very fast at the moment. An acquaintance who'd been outside Warsaw for a year was shocked when she returned.


The best part of three decades, actually. More than half (i.e. double your experience) working in higher education in Poland, and currently on a contract in Africa involving people who will study or complete postgraduate qualifications in Europe, some (as many as I can place there, even) in Poland. As part of what I do, I have to monitor cost of living in cities such as Krakow, and of course I always refer people intending to travel to speak with people currently in the relevant city. there are fora for overseas students in Poland, as well as institution-specific groups. These are excellent sources of advice for the (mostly young and able) people who are going to study there. I recommend that the person who asked for advice checks these out.


The seeds of the boom started before their term of office - there's been something of a snowball effect recently. If you visited Warsaw, you'd be surprised at the mix of people walking up Nowy Swiat, and Krakow too is currently having an expat boom.

As for cost of living, the growth in expats and students has pushed the cost of renting up a little in Krakow, however the costs of everyday life have remained relatively stable.

Public spending on education went steadily down from 2004 to 2014. I highly doubt that there has been any rebound since then. If anything, I expect PiS to have cut spending just like the last time they were in charge. The recent massive teacher layoffs confirm this. I doubt that tertiary education was spared. In any case, there has been no significant reform that would propel forward.

As for a boom, having PiS in charge has probably scared away foreign investment, just like the last time. Poland's practical pariah status within the EU is certainly not helping, nor is the constant stream of Euroskeptic sabre rattling. Foreign direct investment dropped from 14.3 billion dollars in 2014 to 11.4 billion dollars in 2016, less than its level in 2006. That's quite a drop. Investment property prices have rebounded only slightly. Less than I expected. Productivity has increased only slightly. Every source I've seen says growth has been "slow, but steady". Even those with the most hype.

The workforce is shrinking rapidly, and will continue to do so for at least the next ten years, but that will be largely offset by Ukrainian immigrants, as long as too many of them don't abscond to greener pastures. Brain drain remains a huge problem (why do you think they are bringing in IT engineers from India). Oddly, the only country in the world with a bigger brain-drain problem than Poland is India. First-worlders are not flocking to Poland. Poles abroad are not returning. The only uptick in immigration has been among the Ukrainians, and, to a much lesser extent, third-worlders looking for a back-door to the EU. Those crowds of expats and (non-Ukrainian) foreigners are just not there. The number of Indians, for example, has increased only 50% in the last four years. That's a lot less than I expected.

Overall, I see modest, but steady, growth, with long-standing problems remaining in some sectors, especially healthcare and education. Nothing like the "Great Leap Forward" you portray. And if PiS keeps up their Eurosceptic antics, there could be a "Great Leap Backward".

But your focus on "growth" and "change" is what's puzzling me. A four-year-old is growing and changing at a phenomenal rate compared to a forty-year-old, but it's going to be a long time before they can stand eye to eye. Same with Poland. It may be growing and changing faster than its rich neighbors to the west, but it's going to be a long time before they are playing in the same league, especially in terms of tertiary education.

Actually Dominic according to a recent article on financial times polands growth forecast was further increased by Moody's. Yes you're right at first investors were a bit concerned about pis but it appears much of that anxiety faded

Check out the ft article it discusses more the situation w pis. The second article is decent too.
ft.com/content/c0848618-b100-35a3-84a6-64ba52dcd031

thenews.pl/1/12/Artykul/324007,Moody's-strongly-upgrades-Poland's-GDP-growth-forecast

Like with any government and political party, there's pros and cons. Ill be the first to say I don't agree with all pis does and also that po has some good ideas too. There's good and bad in political parties agendas just like in every country.. (With the exception of some really tiny fringe political parties of course.. And if seems like every country has a few.)

@Dirk diggler

The second article confirms exactly what I said above, To the very word:

"The agency expects Polish GDP growth to be driven by solid private consumption and a slow but steady recovery in investment."

Practically every article I have read on the current state of the Polish economy uses the words "slow, but steady".

I have never heard of a "slow, but steady" boom. Kind of an oxymoron, isn't it.

@DominicB

Sorry must've misread.. Bit tired long day man...

Tytpically 3% 3.5% growth is generally onsidered good stable growth for us economy.. Not totally sure about polanda as I haven't studied it as extensively. However Poland was one of the few eu countries to continue to grow throughout the recession. The Baltic tigers as they're known also exhibited fantastic growth given the circumstsnces.

Too much growth can lead to its own unique problems as we've seen in some instances in China. Of course growth is better than stagnation and decline.

Well I think well be seeing an increase in the zlotys value

Immigration is def increasing. The population has grown quite a bit in pl which I see as a good thing. Some poles worried about brexit as well as those who make money abroad a lot of the timed move back to pl or will work in another country but spend their money in pl. Also while.many of the ukranians that came now there's professionals among them too n also good parents tend to strive to provide their kids w an education work ethic morals etc. So I think kind of like w the fobs that came to us from poland many prolly vast majority will take blue collar type jobs w a few professionals in the mix. However those ppls kids tend to strive for more education higher wages pursuing their dreams and passions etc.

No prob. I'm just trying to figure out where all this talk about a boom is coming from. All I find is "slow and steady".


That is one big change. Driven almost entirely by Ukrainians, though, I can't find anything supporting a huge increase in immigrants from other countries, Some uptick in transient workers from India and the like, but nothing in would qualify as earthshaking.

I doubt that I would notice any difference in the number of foreigners since I left three years ago. Except for the Ukrainians, of course.

Nope you're right. Its mostly ukranians but the numbers of Indians Chinese etc is increasing slowly but surely. Also were talking about poland - a pretty small country on the world stage and regionally one that's not as rich as other eu countries. Some ppl came during prl years esp from vietnam as part of the commie n socialist country's cultural n work exchanges. Some poles would go to Libya Iraq etc for work.

The stats are very promising though. Poland GDP growth % has been greater than Germany's every year since 93. Unemployments went down from 8% approx in 2015 to 4.8% as of this month. Even 8% is great esp for europe. Were doing rly well. Tons of opportunity altho wages at companies are a quite a bit behind the west however wages have been growing steadily and it'll most likely continue. I don't think wages will ever be as high as the wests at least prolly not in the foreseeable future

Online.

Those of us who live in PL notice the difference.


The seeds for the current growth were sown during the last government.

The OP would do well - this cannot be restated often enough - to look at fora for either people from his part of the world who are currently in PL, or for overseas students currently at the institution where he wishes to study. They will find more reliable information there, than they will from people living in America who were in Poland and left several years ago.

@jon357

Not totally. The pis government signed new trade deals, continued policies they saw as positive, continued to promote immigration from Ukraine, promoted higher birth rates w their 500 zlotys program, they're meeping debt to GDP low, among other things. Poland has pretty much grown nonstop since the 90s so it wasn't just one party doing it. It was a combination of forces many even beyond local political forces.

Hungary has opened its doors a ton to China. They're even following a similar policy to Canada basically pushing wealthy Chinese to the front of the line for receiving residency and eventually citizenship. Poland is a close 2nd and trade is increasing. Many people have grown wealthy importing/exporting certain products. Ties have grown a lot w these countries lately. Plus poland still has its traditional trading partner while seeing new opportunities like China and closer relations w us. I hear trump is due for a 2nd visit to Poland.

Like I said tho there's good n bad in both regimes.

I notice that apart from real estate (always an issue in Krakow), the cost of living hasn't noticeably changed, whereas there are far more job opportunites. Including for non-Polish speakers.

That, I believe. The number of Indians in Poland went from 4000 to 6000 in the last four years. Not bad, but not spectacular.


Now that I don't believe. The change in the number of non-Ukrainian foreigners is too subtle to be noticed on a day by day basis, There is essentially no noticeable difference between 4000 and 6000 Indians in a country of 38 million.


As long as they speak Ukrainian, or they are IT engineers. Nigerian students need not apply.

On a year by year basis, it's noticeable.


Much more than that, and a surprising number of opportunities for students.

No, it isn't. The rise in non-European students is not all that impressive, according to CBOS. There are 8000 students in total from Asia and Africa. That is only about half a percent of the total student body of the country. Africans are less than a tenth of a percent. Even if were to double, you'd barely notice it, if at all.

"The increase in the number of foreign students in Poland is mainly due to the unprecedented influx of students from Ukraine" - commented representatives of PERSPEKTYWY Educational Foundation."

Ukrainians now make up more than half of the foreign students in Poland, and that percentage is growing very fast. And they are going to snap up any student jobs faster than any Nigerians or Indians will notice that they exist. And the million-odd non-student Ukrainians will make sure that not even a crumb remains. So job opportunities for Asian and African students are drying up fast, and certainly not increasing, as you claim. What Pole is going to hire an Asian or African when they could hire a Ukrainian or Belarusan instead? The only possible reason is that they can pay them even less, which means that those students will not be able to earn enough to significantly contribute to the costs of their studies and stay. and will have to drop out or abscond due to insufficient funds.

scienceinpoland.pap.pl/en/news/news,409202,central-statistical-office-the-number-of-students-fell-by-64-thousand-in-one-year.html

Clearly you've never had anything delivered by UberEats in Poland, pretty much 95% of the delivery staff are from the Indian subcontinent.

@Harry

Yes. Those poor students posted their sad story on this very forum. They worked a total of 11 days, and then were not paid anything at all because their "contract" said they had to work 12 days to get paid. It's much more likely that an Indian student will fall victim to a scam like this than find a real job.

Here's the thread:

https://polishforums.com/work/poland-fraudulent-job-situation-81012/#msg1589211

Studenty jobs. Ubereats seems to be growing, as does their rivals - and they usually employ students.

@jon357

But don't pay them. So it's a scam, not a job. They don't "employ" students. They rob them,

But the "students" were scam artists themselves, and not real students. They couldn't be if they were working 60 to 72 hours a week. All seventy of them have surely absconded to the UK by now. They never had any intention of studying in Poland.

Also, as you yourself said, Uber Eats doesn't employ their delivery personnel. They contract them as "partners". So even if they did complain to the labor board, they would be wasting their time, and would be deported for violating the terms of their visa.

Hardly 'scam artists' - people choose to go abroad for so many reasons, usually to have opportunities they wouldn't otherwise have. On courses in Poland there are (as you would know if you had actually been involved) attendance requirements, monitored by the state. And no, a visa to study in a Schengen country doesn't get people into the UK.


On a student visa, it is possible to work.

And many in Krakow do exactly that. Even more in Warsaw.