Alexander the Great - Macedonski. Poland connection?

Macedonians in the time of Alexanders weren't considered Greeks by the Greeks. Right now who cares? You Nick are argueeing with Nick for pages, it is boring.

That is a Lie! A gross distortion of the truth and intentional misinterpretetation of classicist historical texts.

Athenians saw themselves as' Hellene' standard bearers - other Greeks were less Greek in comparison to Athenians!

FYRoM has nothing to do with Macedonians - Macedonians have always spoken the Centum-Greek language and always subscribed to Hlelenism...the culture of the Greeks...

...What does FYRoM have to do with Macedonians ?

FYRoM's pre-Slavic population was not ancient-Macedonian...It was medieval Byzantine Greco-Roman. The Slavic-speaking peoples of FYRoM believe they connect to Alexander the Great and ancient-Macedonians, but how ? unless they mean through that Greco-Roman line. Greece is the natural-heir, the legitimate-inheritor of the Imperial Byzantine Empire...the sole and legal cultural-inheritor of that legacy. Modern-Greeks trace their heritage and immediate ancestors back to Imperium Romanum, Romania - the Official name of the Eastern-Roman Empire. The Byzantines traced their heritage and immediate ancestors back to ancient-Greece. Ancient-Greeks traced their heritage and immediate ancesters back to Mycaenean proto-Greeks. In this way, we can see and evaluate a cultural-linguistic continuum that links modern-Greeks to previous generations of Greeks in somewhat fragmented but discernible fashion.

It becomes difficult to include FYRoM into this matrix-continuum...unless ofcourse, we include them in, the same way we do modern-Greeks. FYRoM then, connects to ancient-Macedonians through the Byzantine Greco-Roman line, but this would imply they are Slavicized-Byzantines, in which case they become partially-Greek, with only partial-rights to the ancient-Macedonian name, heritage, and legacy - very messy, right!

When FYRoM's pseudo-historical revisionists started to mess with ancient-Greek history, they opened-up a hornets-nest of stings that keep on stinging them...a pandoras-box of conflicts and confusions that pit classicist-historian scholars against political ambitions and expediances. In the political-realm FYRoM has entitlement to name itself 'Republic of Macedonia' but in the academic-realm, FYRoM's national history clashes and conflicts with the Western Worlds long established cultural-historical narrative.

The in-fighting between the academic-realm and the political-realm has led to both taking a different approach, a pragmatic approach...both realms decided to look at the problem from the moral-ethical perspective. A decision has been made...The Onus is on FYRoM to compromise, to find a proper more suitable name for country-name...sovereign state-name, nationality, language and ethnicity.

Today, Politicians and Academics agree - The Macedonian name, the Identity, the history, the heritage, the legacy are all far too rooted in Hellenism to be contested.

Sonnabend, 8. Februar 2014

Not entirely certain I see the point to this "lecture" (Vortrag) on Macedonian geopolitics, suffice to add that I for one have always been aware that the Macedonians are ethnic Slavs, Southern Slavs to be even more exact, despite their historical and cultural proximity with Greece.

Danke fuer die Erlaeuterungen:-)

Macedonians have always spoken the Centum-Greek language and always subscribed to Hellenism...the culture and religious beliefs of the Greeks - FYRoM has nothing to do with Macedonia or Macedonians!

Those who want to impose the Macedonian name on a South-Slavic people-group living on Paeonian-Dardanian soil, do so from political-Idiological perspectives... nothing else.

The Macedonian Name, Identity, History, Heritage, Legacy - It's All Greek.

What Does FYRoM have to do with Macedonia or Macedonians ?

The late Austrian-born conductor Herbert von Karajan always liked to claim that his paternal family name was 'Karajanis' and considered himself 'Macedonian', when in fact the Karajanis' were purely of Hellenic, i.e. Greek, originLOL

If a young South-Slavic child is repeatedly told that he is Macedonian...because he speaks Macedonian and lives on Macedonian soil - that child will hold on to that idea for a lifetime. What FYRoM is doing is Wrong! on all counts!

FYRoM is not Macedonia and the peoples there a Slavic in the major-part, and Albanian in the minor-part. The so called Macedonian-language they speak is a hybrid mix concoction more properly called Serbo-Bulgarian than Macedonian. The FYRoM language is actually 5 letters short from proper Bulgarian! Those 5 Serbian letters were seeded into the Bulgarian-language and then renamed to 'Macedonian-language' in the autumn of 1944.

Young children in FYRoM have a right to know who they are and from where they originate. FYRoM's ancestors were not Centum-Greek speaking Macedonians...they were Satem-Slavic speaking Draguvites and Berzetes.

Stop Rubbishing the history and heritage of the Greek-Hellenic peoples - We shall defend and protect what is ours...Come Hell or High Water!

"Rubbishing"??? Do you mean perhaps "besmerching"?

Don't take it personally - that post isn't in reply to you. Adding opinions to this thread (and a quick check on a search engine) has shown one thing. The guy (kid?) makes them up, copies them and pastes them on half a dozen fora simultaneously.

Think of them as a nutty bulletin.

The first sign that the rest is an empty talk.

Yes, literally! They Rubbish Greeks, Greece and Hellenism...and by extension, the Western Worlds Cultural Historical Narrative then expect sympathy and support for their cause.

The Macedonian name belongs in the Greek domain. Macedonian Identity belongs to Greek heritage - these things are far too rooted in Hellenism to be contested.

FYRoM covets the Macedonian name for country-name...soveriegn state-name, nationality, language and ethnicity, when it is known, these Identity factors do not bode well for South-Slavs.

i call all Slavs to show their solidarity with Macedonians and impose sanctions on Greece. Let them cry when they provoke Slavs

Just curious there, Nick ol' bean! "Rubbishing" doesn't exist in English, that's all:-) Well guess what, I don't speak Greek, so you're one step at least ahead of meLOL

The great Slavic Peoples are brother-peoples to the Greeks and the Spritual Children of Byzantium.

From since the Treaty of 911 between the Rus and Byzantium - strong fraternal bonds between Greeks and Slavs transcend FYRoM's feeble attempts at poisoning the atmosphere between us.

The Centum-Greek language and Hellenism, the cultural religious beliefs of the Greeks defines Macedonians from since the days of King Karanus 778-808 BC. Those elements, in that specific order, formulate Macedonian Identity from since >3 Millenniums past. Identity is for life, the name is simply the carrier which carries it through the bandwith of life...the life term.

Names can adopted but not Identities - Identity is inherited, something passed-on, onward-transmitted from one ethnic-racial, cultural-linguistic generational people-group to the next one.

People-Names and Place-Names form Identity. Language and culture make it meaningful. Religion makes it specific. Identity is the catalyst which binds all of those elements together.

Macedonia(n)...when this term is used, it is used to describe Northern-Greeks. Greeks have been using this Identity from since it's creation, passing it on, from one generation to the next generation, a tradition that has been ongoing now for more than three millenniums.

Identities are not time specific - they are forever!

For as long as Centum-Greek speaking Macedonians [exist] walking and talking Greek-style on this earth, and for as long as they continue to practice their self-determination right in exactly the same tradition as their regional-historical ancestors...no other Macedonians can exist next to them. Names can be adopted but not Identity. Macedonian Identity is far too rooted in Hellenism to be contested.

Ancient-Macedonians were a Greek-speaking Hellenic-peoples - Modern-Macedonians...the same!

Macedonia: The Name, The Identity, The History, The Heritage, The Legacy - All Greek.

Even the Slavic Macedonians now differentiate between the modern Macedonians and the Ancient Macedonians (Big Alex being one). Of course, some of the more strident nationalists still like to make out the modern residents of Skopje are descended by interbreeding with the Ancient Macedonians.

Macedonian Identity on South-Slavs can only be attributed on regional basis by virtue of geography. Today, the geographic region of Macedonia straddles over more than 3 countries. Greece retains 51% of this geographic region. FYRoM retains 38%. Bulgaria 10%. Albania 1%.

The ancient-Kingdom of Macedon is situated entirely in the Greek portion of the geographic-Macedonia, but for a tiny slither of it, which is located in the Bitola region of FYRoM. The latin-Romans distinguished Macedonia-Prima from Macedonia Secunda Salutaris by keeping Prima-Macedonia seperate and distinct, in recognition of the ancient-Macedonians Greek-Hellenic Identity.

FYRoM is Macedonia II Salutaris according to latin-Roman geographical administrative districts - seperated from Macedonia-Prima. FYRoM is the Second-Macedonia, or Beneficial-Macedonia in this Naming-Dispute scenario.


Interbreeding [[by force][by free will]] between Byzantine Greco-Romans and newly settled 6th Century AD Slavic-Tribes occured...this is undeniable, reflected in the genetic signature of Southern-Slavs in closest proximity to the Greeks. Slavic-speakers carrying Haemus-Native E1b1b, J2 haplogroups differ from Polish-Slavs and Russian-Slavs in morphology and in mentality...Slavs in name only, not in substance.

Slavicized E1b1b J2 Haemus-Natives could Re-Hellenize if Macedonian Identity means that much to them!

The fact remains...Centum-Greek speaking Macedonians exist in the same place for >3 Millenniums now, they continue to practice their self-determination right in the tradition of their regional historical ancestors - next to them, other Macedonians can only come second.

Isn't this more a result of the Balkan Wars? If Greece and Serbia hadn't joined together, a lot of it would be in Bulgaria now. It's also interesting to consider that in the late 19th/ early 20th century (when the whole region was under Turkey, anyway) that 4 major powers (Serbia, Bulgaria, Greece and Romania) were all trying to persuade residents that they were those nationalities. To do this they gave away freebies, built schools etc and proletyzed.

A lot of Greeks in rural areas didn't even speak Greek (although they may have had the consciousness).

It was in this environment the Slavic "Macedonian" movement started up, when it was one (dominated) region and a free-for-all on nation-building.

Well yes, sort of! From since the lead-up and advent of the Bulgarian Exarchate.

Had Imperialist Tzarist Russia not [revived] resurrected Bulgaria as the oldest known Slavic entity in the Haemus [Balkan] peninsula...the peoples residing in the Ottoman Vilayets of Monastir, Kosovo and parts of Salonica were looked upon as a disparate mixed salad of ethnicities that could have been easily Hellenized or Serbianized, in accordance with the rules governing the spoils of War. The first Balkan War ofcourse, saw Greece, Serbia, Montenegro and Rumania unite to eject Ottoman Turkey from European soil.

The advent of the Bulgarian Exarchate forced Orthodox Christians to chose between continuing to affiliate with the Patriarchate of Constantinople or move over to the Exarchate Church of Bulgaria...established to seperate the peoples on the basis of alotted affiliations. Slavic-speakers were considered Bulgarian Slavs, solely on the basis of language.

The irony of it all is this: Had the Russians not revived Bulgaria...FYRoM would have been Hellenized or Serbianized. The Slavophone Macedonians of Greece were amongst the staunchest supporters for bringing back to Greek hands, long lost Macedonian lands.

Interesting, Nick. Thanks.

Greece does not need copyrite to prove proof of ownership over the Macedonian name. The best example of proof of ownership over the Macedonian name was demonstrated by the Byzantine Greco-Romans when the name was moved, shifted and transported to a different geographical location during the reign of the Empress Irene, at top-end of the 8th Century AD. You know when a name is yours when you take it with you, wherever you go...much like Old-World Europe, when Old-European Place-Names and People-Names were moved, shifted and transported to the New-World - The Americas.

That political decision, to transport the Macedonian name to a new geographical location is proof that those Byzantine Greco-Romans were light years ahead of their time, in political strategem terms. Those actions circumvent at a stroke, any foreign claims to that name.

Nobody disputes that English Place-Names and People-Names were transplanted there, in the New-World by the English. Nobody disputes that Germannic Place-Names and People-Names were transplanted there, by Germans.

FYRoM adopted the Macedonian name for country-name...sovereign state-name, nationality, language and ethnicity without the consent of the Greeks. FYRoM refuses point-blank to recognise the Greek-Hellenic origins of the Macedonian name because Greece cannot provide legitimate copyrite as proof of ownership. Greeks accept that names can be adopted...but not Identities! Macedonian Identity is Hellenic from since the days of King Karanus 778-808 BC.

FYRoM adopts the Macedonian name and applies to country-name and language-name. For those who did not know - country-name generates nationality whilst language-name generates ethnicity...if this configuration were to be legitimized, FYRoM would become a NoN-Greek Macedonian Nation, peopled by Satem Slavic-speakers, who would be applying the Macedonian to themselves in the ethnic-racial sense and in the cultural-linguistic sense, going against the long established demographic history of the Haemus [Greek] peninsula. There has never existed a NoN-Greek Macedonian Nation in historical verity, to create one now is anathema for Greeks.

Pure comedy. Talking away (or rather copying and pasting from other for a) about something that only some people in only one country (entirely unconnected to this forum) are concerned with.

Greeks: According to FYRoM Doctrine.

Continuity always follows the path of least resistance. The Greeks claim cultural and linguistic continuity to previous generations of Greeks on that basis. Demographically and geographically, the record shows that Centum Greek-speaking Hellenic-peoples have existed in the same places, from since >3 Millenniums into the past.

Greeks, like the Armenians, the Jews, the Persians, the Hindus, the Chinese, and the Japanese could be cited as prime examples of ethnic continuity, since, despite massive cultural changes over the centuries, they have still retained certain key identifying components...such as their name, their language, their customs, their religious community and territorial association. All of these key identifying factors have been broadly maintained and reproduced for millennia. Although fragmented, ethnic-continuity and cultural-linguistic continuity is still discernible in all those places and people-groups cited above. Their histories and their heritages cannot be rubbished or bismerched by modern-people groups wanting to claim parts of their historical legacies.

FYRoM claims Alexander the Great for hero-figure and ancestor. The Slavic-speaking peoples there claim descendancy from the Macedonians of old. FYRoM competes with Greece over historical matters and refuses to recognize Greece being the sole and legal heir and inheritor of the ancient-Macedonian-lagacy. FYRoM refuses to acknowledge modern-Greeks having demographic, geographic, biological, cultural, and linguistic relatedness to ancient-Greeks. FYRoM claims that Greeks do not exist. According to FYRoM doctrine: Greeks were created by the West in 1821. Greeks and the West stole the history and heritage of the Slavs in order to cheat Slavdom from it's true history and heritage in the Haemus [Greek] peninsula, which they equate to Alexander the Great and the ancient-Macedonians from antiquity.

Between Slavdom and Turan stands Hellenism - the host culture in the Haemus [Greek] peninsula. Greeks cannot progress or go forward with mindsets like this for neighbours! Greeks should not have to defend and protect the Western-Worlds Cultural Historical Narrative alone...our Western partners and European Cousins should protect it too!

If there were No Greeks around in the world today, to claim the history and heritage of the ancient-Hellenic peoples - The Macedonian Name, Identity, History, Heritage and Legacy would still be attributed to them. The international academic community would still be squaring up to political ambitions and expediancies...FYRoM would still be facing the same challenges from the same groups of peoples, minus the Greeks ofcourse, because in this scenario they don't exist, according to FYRoM doctrine.

It's weird and somehow interesting seeing a greek and a serb arguing with each-other. Last time I saw something similar was in a basketball match where for a second greeks forgot about the term: orthodox brother :D :D.

It is quite fair to say that FYRoM poisoned the atmosphere between Greeks and Serbs.


Equating Sports with Orthodox Brotherhood is a bit shallow, and a bit lame!

What is clear is this: The Greek here, defends his history and protects his cultural inheritance. The Serb here, defends what exactly ? and protects who exactly ?

When a name is imposed on you, and in such a way as to defy your ancestral forebears paternal-ethnicity - what kind of a name could it be but an imposed one.

The Macedonian name was imposed on Bulgarian-speaking Vardar-Slavs in order to ethnically-manipulate them, and to socially-engineer them into a new kind of Slav...a Macedonian Slav. But things did not go according to plan!

Slavdoms mind-architects did not cater for the time when after >2 generations, those same Vardar Slavs having developed a heightened sense of government sponsored Makedonism, went on to espouse (i) collective-memories, (ii) ethnic-feelings, and (iii) national-pride for all things Macedonian.

Nobody catered for this! Slavdom created a people-group that espouses ethnic-Macedonian feelings, but refuses to accept that the ancient-Macedonians were a Centum-Greek speaking Hellenic-peoples. The peoples of FYRoM refuse to accept Alexander Great as the Greek King of Macedon...they see him more like as Aleksandar Veliki, the first Czar of the Slavs.

Names can be adopted and imposed, but not Identities! Macedonian Identity was cast in the Hellenic mould >3 Millenniums ago!

FYRoM Identity is South-Slavic, not too far distanced from Serbian or Bulgarian. FYRoM Identity cannot be Macedonian in the Greek sense of that word. Macedonian Identity was cast and set in the Hellenic mould millenniums ago. Identity is not transferable, it stays with the creators, those who created it in the first place. What was Macedonian then, >3 Milleniums ago cannot be Slavic now.

Macedonian Identity on South-Slavs can only be attributed to them on regional-basis, by virtue of geography of the latin-Roman administrative type. FYRoM at one stage in history carried the Macedonia II Salutaris name, a latin-Roman administrative district carved-out from Paeonia and Dardania.

The ancient-Kingdom of Macedon was Macedonia-Prima according to latin-Roman regional administrative geography. The Romans kept it Greek, seperate and distinct from Macedonia Secunda Salutaris.

FYRoM is not Macedonia in the Greek sense of latin-Roman regional administrative geography. According to them, FYRoM was the Second-Macedonia - Secunda-Macedonia. Salutaris in old-latin transliterates to something like 'beneficial' or 'add-on' not the original, but an adjunct...an accessory!

FYRoM's Satem Slavic-speaking Macedonians come Second to the Hellenic Republics Centum Greek-speaking Macedonians, the Prima, Proto, First, Top of the Chain Macedonians - the ones who stayed loyal to Hellenism, and the ones who continue to practice their self-determination right in the tradition of their regional historical ancestors.

Names can be adopted or imposed, but not Identities. The latin-Romans knew that a long time ago. The Identity of the ancient-Kingdom of Macedon was Hellenic in latin-Roman eyes.

Nick, I also think that such a topic does not need dozens of pages. It would seem that this is a serious historical controversy, and actually it is not. I suggest stop writing here unless someone appears with "proofs" against the conventional history.

1. Alexander the Great was neither a slav, nor he spoken Slavic language. Probably Slavs were not here before 4-5 century AD.

2. The name "Macedonia" is geographic name, it signifies a territory, not a nation, or a state.

3. Emperor Basilios, fighting against Tzar Samuil, defeated the latter in the 11th century and was called "The Slayer of Bulgarians", not of Macedonians.

4. Macedonians speak a language very near to Bulgarian, although they try to "prove" that Bulgarians... have borrowed the language from them (???) in the 9th century.

5. Macedonia today has its national identity. This is OK for me. Let's everyone has their own self-consciousness. But to "correct" the European history according to your needs is nothing but science fiction. By the way, Poland is also concerned, as Macedonians claim that they are the "ancestors" of all Slavic people, and that Slavic languages have their origin in a proto-slavic language, which is... Macedonian.

And so on, and so on. All this "theory" would be fun if Macedonia today was not separated into Slavic and Albanian part. Instead of protecting themselves against Albanians, they prefer to work on... history. Madness...

I reserve the right to respond to threads like this, in forums and in bloggs like this.

FYRoM's anti-Hellenic propaganda has already had too much air time - the internet is littered with FYRoM style psuedo-historical Silliness!

Greeks cannot allow FYRoM free license to Rubbish (i) the cultural inheritance of the Greeks, (ii) the national history of Greece, and (iii) Hellenic contributions to man-kind and world history.


Really!

This is my last entry, so I shall make it meaningful and understandable.

Macedonian Identity is Hellenic - It has been this way for >3 Millenniums now...attested to, by historian scholars of the classics, and by demographers, philologists and archeologists. The evidence is overwhelming!

FYRoM's Identity is South-Slavic - ask Slavdom...the Slavic Collective of Peoples. FYRoM is seen to be integral and intrinsic to this collective.

Names can be adopted, and imposed, but not Identity!

Macedonian Identity was cast and set in the Hellennic mould more than three millenniums ago...from since the days of King Karanus 778-808 BC.

The Macedonian name belongs in the Greek domain...Macedonian Identity belongs to Greek heritage.

FYRoM has adopted the Macedonian name for country-name, but taken it 4 steps further. FYRoM utilises that name for (i) sovereign state-name,(ii) nationality,(iii) language and (iv) ethnicity - Identity factors which do not bode well for South-Slavs.

Identity once cast and set, stays with the people-group(s) that created it in the first place. Identity is for life, passing-onwards to the next generations for life...and when life ceases to exist, that Identity [[Name][Body][Soul]] stays with the expired.

For as long as Greeks exist practicing their self-determination right in the tradition of their regional historical ancestors...no other Macedonians can exist next door to them!

Identity is not transferable!

FYRoM has no choice now but to differentiate itself from the Macedonian Identity it covets - that Identity belongs to Hellenism and Greek heritage.

Macedonian Identity on South-Slavs is attributed to them on regional basis by virtue of geography. In FYRoM live Slavs, but Macedonian-Slavs...Slavophones , Slavic-speaking Macedonians with Slavic heritage. With very few words: FYRoM Identity is Slavic by virtue of paternal-ethnicity - Greco-Slavic by culture and tradition.

Macedonian Identity is Hellenic - for >3 Milleniums now.

Aleksandar Makedonski remains an enduring fascination. They portray him in all sorts, they portray him as a Greek. I personally think that he was not a Greek, that he was a Macedonian of Slavic blood - by no means Greek. We know that he with the Greeks often spoke through an interpreter. Also the Greeks in his army and vice-versa when someone adresses Greek troops he does that with the help of an interpreter. His army seemed to have around 37,000 soldiers out of which only approximately 7 thousand were Hellenes (Greeks) the rest were Macedonians, Thracians, Illyrians and so on. And with such a relatively small army, you know 37 thousand people, which battles for 12 years more or less in the same composition, he succeded to conquer all those kingdoms and empires and create one state. However, considering how it quickly formed, after his death it seems that it also quickly fell apart on 4 parts his Empire, and so on. One large star which is even mentioned in the Bible through a verse Aleksandar Makedonski is mentioned as a Unifier of the World, as a Master, an Emperor over Emperors.

youtube.com/watch?v=vpjIkOj-Bho

Macedonia existed only once as a kingdom as that was in ancient time. "Kingdom of Macedonia". Then came the romans and from that point until now the name Macedonian is just regions/provinces in different kingdoms. In those region in Balkan around 600 a.d. Came the Slavic people and settled in those differt constellation of regions.

A people are usually defined by 4 features. Language, religion, history, customs

Alexander The great spoke a Greek language "Doric", he believed in the 12 Greek gods, he was the first man to spread Hellenism (greekness),

FYROMians - speak The last developing Slavic language (see the indo-european language map), orthodox religion, slavic history, Balkan music.

Their last name ends with the Slavic endings -ski, -ov, -ev, as in Poland, Russia, Czech Republic, Ukraine, etc.

One more example

Thessaloniki is a typical Macedonia name from the kingdom of Macedonia in ancient

Each and every kingdom who came after that period came with a new language and new grammatic.
So in Latin it called Salonica
In Ottoman Empire Salonik
And in south Slavic Salon

Bye bye

Small-minded people who denies Slavic antiquity upsets me, considering that Europe was Slavic when God din`t even have plans nor for Greeks, nor for Romans, not for any other today existing European nation.

We Serbs and other people of former Yugoslavia have always refereed to FYROM as "Macedonia" and people who live there as "Macedonians", but we know very well that they are not descendants of ancient Macedonians and most find their claims to Macedonian heritage ridiculous. I sympathize with Greeks and believe that Serbia made a mistake by recognizing FYROM as "Macedonia" before the naming dispute has been settled with Greece.

I don't. It is not possible to copyright ethnonyms. Period. The same word can be used for different groups of people. Deal. With. It.

I love a lot of things about Greece, but their perpetual tantrums about the name Macedonia are extremely off-putting to the sane.