WWII - who really was the first to help Poland?

Especially when it is a myth.


Taxpaying voter provided a reference to General Anders' book.


As you know, she was not.

Well you better go and argue with the British Legion then, let us know what they say when you put your argument to them.

britishlegion.org.uk/community/stories/remembrance/why-it-took-60-years-for-poles-to-celebrate-ve-day

Note the letter from 10 downing street at the end

Well

I was just about to quote the same source.

The general consensus is that Poles who fought under Allied Command were not invited to take part in the VE parade of 1945. Reading casual posts of two people from this forum who disagree with that historical fact isn't going to sway me.

Taxpaying voter can easily scan a copy of the book he refers to so we can read the claim in the proper context (presuming the claim is correct).

For Jon to dismiss the dozens of historical documents as myth is really rather astounding and arrogant.

As I spent many evenings with my father and his comrades who fought for Britain and Poland dinguring WWII, you can imagine this subject arose many times, their understanding was that the soviets were happy with Polish RAF personnel attending the parade but under no circumstances would they be happy with the sight of many thousands of free Polish soldiers marching through the streets of Britain, It would not suit their propaganda machine in Poland who were trying to erase these brave men from Polish history, understandably the Polish RAF veterans refused to march unless it was open to all Free Polish forces

Note the apology below, I think it settles the matter.

Michael Moszynski is the son of Captain Stefan Moszynski of the 1st Polish Armoured Division (which closed the Falais Gap in August 1944). When in 2003 he heard about this for the first time he was deeply moved by the injustice of it all, so became determined to put things right and wrote to Tony Blair. He managed to secure the first ever apology to a private citizen from a Prime Minister regarding the British Government's failure to invite the Polish armed forces to the Victory Parade

Among the terminally ignorant that may be the general consensus. However, amongst those who can read sources such as Hansard, media reports from the time, books by the likes of Norman Davies and the autobiography of General Anders it is known that sets of Poles were invited to take part.


Moszynski is a publicity seeking prat and a liar. He secured nothing from the PM, all he got was a letter from a secretary. And he didn't get any apology, he got an expression of regret. And it wasn't an expression of regret that Poles were not invited, it was an expression of regret that Poles did not participate. Sadly the secretary was too polite to express regret that Poles did not participate despite being invited.


Dozens of historical documents? You haven't even provided one.
Here's a link to Hansard, do let me know if you need any help with it:
hansard.millbanksystems.com/commons/1946/jun/05/foreign-affairs#column_2117

He said nothing of the sort or you are trying to twist what he wrote.

theguardian.com/books/2003/nov/08/featuresreviews.guardianreview2

Note the use of charitable note the government of the time was pro marxist and had pro soviet leaning members

The exclusion of the Poles from Britain's 1945 victory parade in contrast, may charitably be attributed to muddle. Though the Polish government, our exiled wartime ally, was still in London, invitations were sent to the communist regime in Warsaw. When no response was forthcoming, Ernest Bevin saw the mistake and sent a last-minute apology to Poland's General Anders

Stich up comes to mind

Small but possibly key point: the victory parade which some Poles love to claim they weren't invited to was in 1946. If you don't know the very basic details, perhaps you'd do better to stay out of the discussion?

If you have a copy handy, take a look at page 505 of Rising '44 by Davies. There you'll see Davies saying that that invitations were sent to General Boor [sic], the chiefs of the Polish Air Force and the Polish Navy and to individual generals. And further down the page he says that not only were Polish pilots in the RAF were invited join the parade but that they actually joined the parade! And so did Polish men and women who had worked in the ground crews! So, according to Davies: Poland was invited to take part in the parade, Polish representatives were invited to take part in the parade and Poles actually took part in the parade.


The phrase you're looking for is abject ignorance.

Ok harry as the expert the topic is all yours,

Or agree with those dozens of documents that confirm the truth. The UK Ambassador also demolished the myth.


This is true and well-documented.

Nope but let's not allow the facts to get in the way of your determination to prove a point eh ?

The way you frame your point is interesting e.g. "it is known that sets of Poles were invited to take part"

We are not disputing that some Poles or "sets of Poles" as you so eloquently put it, were invited to take part. We are making the distinction that the Poles who were invited were not part of the free Polish Army and these Poles were not invited to take part

Thanks for the link to Hansard (still waiting on your quote from Anders' book though). An excerpt from Hansard is detailed below. Thanks for reinforcing the argument against your own point...

"Let me be quite honest. We have not invited the Navy and the Army, but we did invite some of the Poles who flew in the Battle of Britain, to march past in the R.A.F. contingent. The action was not taken to please M. Molotov. The action was taken because we have to bring about some kind of balance between these governmental forces,"

As I may be wrong and I have no copy of the book in question - not to mention I can't remember if TPV posted the title, the author or the year it was published (and I don't think all books about Anders contain the same information on page 299), I hope TPV will spend some of his valuable time and scan or take a photo of that page - with the right context provided.

As for Poles in the Wehrmacht, let me remind you - as you seem to have forgotten - I mentioned it was about those who had signed the Volksliste.

I'd be grateful if you could stop taking my words out of context. The same applies to ignoring things I said before. If that doesn't depend on your conscious choice, I'm sorry for your problems with memory and concentration.

Either you're lying or General Anders is (and he organised an elaborate conspiracy at the time to support his lies). I wonder which of you is fibbing: a well respected Polish General or somebody who's got past form for lying here.


You keep claiming that they were forced, which simply is not true, as people who didn't sign the DVL when offered the chance can tell you.


I'm sorry you have no interest in historical facts and instead view history as something you can pick things from to support you views and which you can ignore when it demonstrates you're either ignorant or lying.

First of all I didn't realise that you are actually "Harry" though I did wonder where you had disappeared to. Is the new name to try and throw the mods off your scent ? :)

Secondly, I had no past form for lying on this forum. Are you trying to bait forum members again ? Can we not have a civilised debate without the same people resorting to throwing personal insults at anyone who dares disagree with them ?

Thirdly, you actually haven't proven anything at all regarding the claim about Anders. All you have done is made a claim that neither you or us can verify because you have been purposefully ambiguous with the details. Scan a copy of page 299 so we can see the context. You must have the book in your flat otherwise you couldn't be so specific about the page number.

@Taxpaying voter
Oh, you say so? Then it must be true!

No need to confirm your claims with any sources! Who would do that?

If you ever write a book about it, send me a copy! I need to learn more from you -about WW2 and other things, too.

Are you, by any chance, the author of the book about Anders?

In all fairness if people in some areas did not volunteer for the DVL then there would have been implied pressure for the safety of the man and his family. These things happened in war. If we look at it in the cold light of day we can claim that he "volunteered" but in reality there would have been pressure on men in some areas to volunteer or else.....

Laughable. As usual.


Says a dude from a country that occupied 1/4 of the world back then. Your country didn't give a **** about the alliance it signed and now to "cover it up" you pinks throw **** at those they failed to help in any way. How pathetic.

Why should they have given a damn about a country that used Hitler's annexation of the Sudetenland to annex Zaolzie?

Perhaps because they signed an alliance and then behaved like cowards ? You won't cover it up with your pathetic comedy.

Sorry, but I think the UK did more than enough for Poland.

If you want to talk about cowardice, perhaps you should start with the rats that fled to Romania.

Sorry but vast majority of sane people disagree with you.


Most of those "rats" later fought against so called "Nazis" at every opportunity they had. What some english dude think about them is totally irrelevant.

You mean the vast majority of uneducated idiots who know nothing. WW2 left the UK in a hell of a mess for a long time, and given that we entered the war because of Poland, I think we did enough. It was a stupid move to ally with Poland to begin with, not least because of Poland's actions over the previous 21 years towards neighbours.


I'm talking about the leadership, not the rank and file. The cowardice of the President and commander-in-chief was astonishing, especially given the propaganda around Rydz-Śmigły before the war.

You may think everyone else is "uneducated idiot", only English know better but it isn't so really. Funny how you dudes are such staunch "truth seekers" and "myth breakers" when it comes to Poland and other countries but when it's your country, you start behaving like you were 5 years old. The UK tried to push others into war with one another and just stay behind watching and ripping off profits later. It didn't work out exactly like that only because "Nazis" outfoxed you. That's it, the rest are just stories for English kids, apparently some still believe in them even when they get older.


You are talking about people who did all they could to evacuate thousands of people, who later fought to defend your country. I guess one has to be English to be so ungrateful.

Dear oh dear. Poles created the meaning of the word.

Apparently English brought it up to a totally new level.

I have the book at home so may check later. I also have his email address so might be tempted to see what he says about your claims in general.

Davies' article in the Guardian (see below) suggests that your black and white interpretation is off the mark so tone down your insults to others who disagree with you.

theguardian.com/books/2003/nov/08/featuresreviews.guardianreview2

I look forward to reading your post about it.


There he writes about some parade in 1945, the official victory parade in London was in 1946, or did you miss that bit?


The book is by General Anders it's his memoirs.

I can't wait to see a scan of page 299!
Thanks in advance ;)

I can't wait until PF increases the maximum file size for attached files to more than 100kb. I also can't wait for you to decide to tell the truth about Polish history.

In the meantime, feel most welcome to have a look at the copy of Hansard linked to above and to also have a look at page three of The Times newspaper from 6 June 1946, which says "The Polish Government accepted, but the contingent has not yet arrived. Unfortunately, it seems that none of the Polish servicemen who fought in the West under British command will take part. Polish airmen who took part in the Battle of Britain were invited, but they do not wish to march unless Polish soldiers and sailors of the Western Command can march with them."

A quote from the book will do if you can't adjust the size ;)
I hope you can do it, can't you? After all, you were able to quote the Times here.

By the way, I'm slightly confused here ... what about that part of the quote about other Polish soldiers and sailors?

Thanks in advance!

It's definitely a fact that 25 Polish RAF pilots received invitations to march in the 1946 Victory Parade.