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Help with idiomatic translation ...


kaprys 3 | 2,249
28 Dec 2017 #31
@DominicB
Do you know why Polish dywan (rug/carpet) has a diffferent meaning to English 'divan'. The latter meaning is used in diffferent languages actually.
DominicB - | 2,707
28 Dec 2017 #32
It's called "semantic drift" ("dryf semantyczny"). The meaning of words changes over time, especially when words are borrowed by one language from another. That's why false friends exist between languages, like prezerwatywa and preservative, or poligon and polygon, or szalet and chalet. Or my favorite, Polish talon and English talon.
mafketis 36 | 10,679
28 Dec 2017 #33
Polish dywan (rug/carpet) has a diffferent meaning to English 'divan'

That is weird. In this case Polish is the odd language out, everybody else sits on a divan. Some years ago I read something that untangled the history of the word but I forget the details.
DominicB - | 2,707
28 Dec 2017 #34
In Sumerian, it originally meant a clay tablet, the kind you see cuneiform written on. Then it meant a list of soldiers written on such a tablet. Then a list of government officials. Then a royal court. Then a throne room. Then a raised platform or bench along the walls of the throne room. Polish got it in the sense of carpet that covers such a platform.

@kaprys

This is an excellent example of semantic drift.
jon357 74 | 21,749
28 Dec 2017 #35
everybody else sits on a divan

Remember that in much of the world, people sit and sleep on carpets.

That's information you can easily check in google but you're welcome

If you need to, and doubtless you did. Most people reading knew already.
Lyzko 45 | 9,343
28 Dec 2017 #36
@Wulkan,

Like so much Polish word stock.
Ziemowit 14 | 4,278
28 Dec 2017 #37
What is a Polish 'stock'?
Lyzko 45 | 9,343
28 Dec 2017 #38
"stock" = zrodlo aka source or origin

:-)
kaprys 3 | 2,249
28 Dec 2017 #39
przelom.pl/14403-o-dywanie-kobiercu-i-tapczanie.html

An article about dywan/kobierzec/tapczan in the link above - when I'm not being lazy ...
As for the semantic drift, would English 'tart' apply? From a sort of cake, through a sweet girl to .... well ...
Lyzko 45 | 9,343
28 Dec 2017 #40
..even a *****/"kurwa", at least in the UK.
jon357 74 | 21,749
28 Dec 2017 #41
s for the semantic drift, would English 'tart' apply? From a sort of cake, through a sweet girl to .... well ...

From French/late Latin and perhaps somewhere before, a sweet and decorated thing, first edible, then female.

In English there are some words (togs, gadger, cushty, charver/chav, pal) from Romany - I wonder if there are many expressions in Polish that come from Romany languages.

There's also mush, in English from Romany and from a Slavonic root before that. I wonder if it'll one day come full circle...
kaprys 3 | 2,249
29 Dec 2017 #42
@jon357
And do these come from Angloromani? I believe there are different dialects within the Romani language.
Also English travellers seem different from Polish Romani.
As for borrowings from their language into Polish, I don't know. They have been living here for centuries so there might be some. I tried googling them but didn't find anything.
DominicB - | 2,707
29 Dec 2017 #43
I wonder if there are many expressions in Polish that come from Romany languages.

I've been wondering about that for years and have never come across even a single example of a true loan word from Romany into Polish.
kaprys 3 | 2,249
29 Dec 2017 #44
Perhaps because there are not many non-Romani people who speak the language and Romani people are in fact bilingual doing great in Polish and speaking Romani to other Romani only.
jon357 74 | 21,749
29 Dec 2017 #45
Angloromani?

Yes, they do.

I do know a couple of Poles without gypsy roots who speak a little of a Roma language, however they are people who've always lived close to Roma and grown up near them.
mafketis 36 | 10,679
29 Dec 2017 #46
(togs, gadger, cushty, charver/chav, pal) from Romany

Pretty sure that only the first (if it means clothes) and last would be widely understood in the US, chav might be understood by some but not the majority I think.

I think it's interesting that Romani in Poland usually speak to each other in Romani in public but in Hungary (where there are many more) they are more likely to use Hungarian with each other. I'm not sure why that's the case....
kaprys 3 | 2,249
29 Dec 2017 #47
I used to know a Polish gypsy family ... in London. The woman was half-Polish but grew among Romani people. She told me about some of their customs.

Interestingly enough, they have two names: one formal and one Romani. They also speak Romani to one another - I've noticed that with that family but also here in shops etc.
Lyzko 45 | 9,343
29 Dec 2017 #48
All I know is that "gajo" means "foreigner" or "outsider" aka anyone who's not Romany.


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