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Walesa says without meeting Mrs Thatcher in Gdansk Solidarnosc wouldn't have won


Harry
14 Jan 2014 #1
A very interesting statement which comes right at the end of an otherwise fairly interesting short film:


TheOther 6 | 3,818
14 Jan 2014 #2
Walesa says without meeting Mrs Thatcher in Gdansk Solidarnosc wouldn't have won

As if that witch had any influence east of the Berlin Wall. The only one to thank is Gorbachev, without whom Solidarność and a free Poland wouldn't exist.
Marek11111 9 | 816
15 Jan 2014 #3
Walesa says without meeting Mrs Thatcher in Gdansk Solidarnosc wouldn't have won posts: 2

that is stupid statement the solidarity did not win thanks to bolek
szkotja2007 27 | 1,499
15 Jan 2014 #4
Thatcher did wonders for the Polish coal and shipbuildiing industries.
goofy_the_dog
15 Jan 2014 #6
bolek is a funny guy. i wouldnt really pay too much attention to what he says.
thatcher, as any other British and truly western leader had her country as her first priority.
all in all she didnt much for Poland, why should she? last time i checked she was a British PM not a Polish one.
OP Harry
15 Jan 2014 #7
As if that witch had any influence east of the Berlin Wall.

Walesa (and other Polish politicians) seem fairly certain that she did have. Any thoughts as to why their opinions are so different to yours?

The only one to thank is Gorbachev, without whom Solidarność and a free Poland wouldn't exist.

What an original view of history. The reality is that Gorbachev wasn't even a full member of the Politburo when Solidarnosc came into existence. The fall of communism in Poland was only a matter of time, it would have happened with or without Gorbachev.

bolek is a funny guy. i wouldnt really pay too much attention to what he says.

Publicly call him that while in Poland, I'd love to see you discover what the Polish legal system has to say about people who commit criminal libel.

Of course you wouldn't pay much attention to what Walesa says: he's a Polish hero who risked his life for the Polish people, he dedicated his life to Poland, he was at the scalpel's edge of the fight against communism in Poland and knows the full story; he's everything that you're not and he's nothing that you'll ever be. No wonder plastic patriots who think that the day Poland celebrates her independence and the men who risked (and in many cases gave) their lives for Poland is just an excuse for a "day out" want real Polish patriots, real Polish heroes, to be ignored: when we look at them, listen to them, and then look at your ilk we know exactly what you are.
AdamKadmon 2 | 508
15 Jan 2014 #8
Strange was that love of the Polish trade union leader with the British PM who brutally crushed trade unions in her own country more or less in the same fashion as Jaruzelski did at the same time in Poland.

A separate document reveals that the prime minister, who survived the Brighton bomb in the same year, secretly considered calling out troops and declaring a state of emergency amid mounting concerns that her government was facing defeat in the epic 12-month strike over plans to close 20 loss-making pits which sparked brutal picket line clashes such as the infamous "Battle of Orgreave".

The Independent Wednesday 15 January 2014
independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/margaret-thatcher-nearly-sent-in-the-army-to-crush-miners-secret-papers-reveal-9034934.html
smurf 39 | 1,981
15 Jan 2014 #9
C'mon, Thatcher used Poland to show how much she was against Communism, she had no interest in Poland whatsoever, if iron workers/coalminers/etc. in Czechoslovakia or Hungary etc. had risen up like Solidarność did in Gdansk then herself and her bff Regan would've been falling over themselves to get behind that too, the fact that it happened first in Poland made no difference whatsoever to them.

You know as well as the rest of us man that Thatcher was the single worst human being than a union could come up against. If Solidarność & Lech Wałęsa had existed in the UK she would have crushed them bugs, like she did the mining unions in Britain. The only thing Thatcher hated more than trade unions was society itself...... we're talking about a person here who proudly said 'there's no such thing as society.'

The fall of communism in Poland was only a matter of time

That's certainly true, Thatcher and Regan made the world focus on the issue, but they had little to do with it collapsing in Poland, that snowball was well and truly rolling by the time their heads were turned towards Poland. They used an opportunity that presented itself to score some political brownie points. Which was their want to do, I don't blame them, I'd have done the same, indeed they came out of it smelling like roses and looking like saviours of Neo-con capitalism.

Publicly call him that while in Poland

As much as I detest myself for saying this Harry, Goofy is probably right here, Poles today don't really have much time for Wałęsa, they of course appreciate what he did, but as a politician and a president he's perceived as a bit of an oaf. Look up some of his quotes from his political career and you'll see that he wasn't fond of thinking before he spoke....he still isn't..... indeed you can buy funny t-shirts with some of his quotes printed on them in most tourist shops around the country.

Personally, I think he seems like a nice enough lad to have a pint with but he shouldn't have been president, he didn't really know what he was doing.

I don't know who would've been better, someone more like the Czech Rep's Václav Havel would've suited the role far better, cultural icon would've done the country more good at that time.
pierogi2000 4 | 229
15 Jan 2014 #10
There is a distinct difference in the way Walesa is celebrated today by his own (Polish) people AND the way Westerners celebrate and most importantly package Walesa to their own society. Cute butt buddy scenario in play here. The West advertises Walesa as a Soviet defeater and in return Walesa proclaims how it was all made possible by (Insert Western leader). It's really cute.

Thatcher could not have cared any less for the non wealthy Brits, what could she have wanted from Poland.
OP Harry
15 Jan 2014 #11
Strange was that love of the Polish trade union leader with the British PM

Watch the film and you'll hear what he said to her about unions.

we're talking about a person here who proudly said 'there's no such thing as society.'

Funny how people never bother to give the full quote: "But it went too far. If children have a problem, it is society that is at fault. There is no such thing as society.There is living tapestry of men and women and people and the beauty of that tapestry and the quality of our lives will depend upon how much each of us is prepared to take responsibility for ourselves and each of us prepared to turn round and help by our own efforts those who are unfortunate."

As much as I detest myself for saying this Harry, Goofy is probably right here, Poles today don't really have much time for Wałęsa

There's a vast difference between not having much time for somebody and being openly disrespectful towards somebody. Interestingly it's by far more the 'Poles' who don't live in Poland and who have never done anything for Poland and may well have turned their own back on Poland who are openly disrespectful of Walesa; Poles here might not have much time for him but they do have respect for him (allbeit the same sort of respect one might have for slightly mad great-uncle who won a VC in WWII after lying about his age so he could sign up and then a bar for it in the Korea war and who still cries at the memory of being told he was too old for the Falklands task force but who never fails to get drunk at Xmas dinner and pass out in the corner letting off farts worse than the worst of what Union Carbide could ever produce).

There is a distinct difference in the way Walesa is celebrated today by his own (Polish) people AND the way Westerners celebrate and most importantly package Walesa to their own society. Cute butt buddy scenario in play here.

Thanks for demonstrating exactly what I was saying. In the unlikely even that you do ever visit Poland, do be sure to ask Poles about Walesa (but be careful which Poles you express your opinions about him too, some Poles will not take kindly to an American talking smack about a Polish hero).
smurf 39 | 1,981
15 Jan 2014 #12
Funny how people never bother to give the full quote:

It might be funny, but she said what she said :D

Poles here might not have much time for him but they do have respect for him

I fully agree and yes there's no need to be insulting towards a man who did quite a lot for Poland..... but then again when his name pops up in conversation there's likely to be a joke made at his expense...or a groan or a rolling of the eyes.

The first time I witnessed this I was at a Massive Attack gig in Gdynia, one of the members, Robert Del Naja, said something along the lines of 'it's so great to finally play in Poland, and to be so close to where Lech Walesa and his trade union took down communism.'

The audience let out a collective 20,000 person groan and he quickly began the next song. I asked the missus what it was all about and she explained that most people are just fed up with foreigners praising Wałęsa to the high heavens when they know SFA about what followed after 89.
AdamKadmon 2 | 508
15 Jan 2014 #13
Watch the film and you'll hear what he said to her about unions.

The proof of a good piece of propaganda is in the feeling of revulsion it evokes in the majority of people; there come the times when the official story will be more to the likings of the common people. So you'll just have to wait and see.
TheOther 6 | 3,818
15 Jan 2014 #14
The reality is that Gorbachev wasn't even a full member of the Politburo when Solidarnosc came into existence.

What does that matter? If a man like Brezhnev would have been in power at that time instead of Gorbachev, you would have seen Soviet tanks crushing any freedom movement including Solidarność. Thus the organization wouldn't exist today.

Walesa (and other Polish politicians) seem fairly certain that she did have. Any thoughts as to why their opinions are so different to yours?

They simply wanted western attention and publicity to prevent the USSR from interfering (i.e., invading). Thatcher was despised for crushing the trade unions at home. You really think Solidarność respresentatives had any sympathy for her? She was just a helpful tool.
OP Harry
15 Jan 2014 #15
If a man like Brezhnev would have been in power at that time instead of Gorbachev, you would have seen Soviet tanks crushing any freedom movement including Solidarność.

Brezhnev was leader of the USSR until his death in late 1982 (November?). He was in charge of the USSR when Solidarnosc was set up and when martial law was declared in Poland. He was in power. You are completely wrong.

They simply wanted western attention and publicity to prevent the USSR from interfering (i.e., invading).

Mrs T's visit to Gdansk was in late 1988, the Soviet invasion threat was well and truly over by then.

Thatcher was despised for crushing the trade unions at home. You really think Solidarność respresentatives had any sympathy for her?

Walesa appears to think otherwise, and he was actually there. Perhaps you should do just a little bit of reading about this topic before telling us that he's wrong and you're right?
TheOther 6 | 3,818
15 Jan 2014 #16
Brezhnev was leader of the USSR until his death in late 1982 (November?). He was in charge of the USSR when Solidarnosc was set up and when martial law was declared in Poland. He was in power.

Read up on 'Soyuz-80'.

Walesa appears to think otherwise,

And that proves exactly what?
jon357 63 | 15,441
15 Jan 2014 #17
Both Thatcher the milk snatcher and Wałęsa have one very striking thing in common. Nothing they did, none of the reforms they were part of, turned out remotely how they wanted or expected.
TheOther 6 | 3,818
15 Jan 2014 #18
Both Thatcher the milk snatcher

Harry is too young to remember that. ;)
jon357 63 | 15,441
15 Jan 2014 #19
Indeed. And both of those two became utterly delusional eventually.
OP Harry
15 Jan 2014 #20
Read up on 'Soyuz-80'.

I've posted about Operation Krkonose here many times, so no need to read up on that.
What I would like to read is your explanation of why you said "If a man like Brezhnev would have been in power at that time instead of Gorbachev, you would have seen Soviet tanks crushing any freedom movement including Solidarność." when the reality is that Brezhnev was in charge for the first two and a bit years of Solidarnosc and we didn't see any Soviet tanks here crushing anybody. That I would love to read.

jon357:Both Thatcher the milk snatcher
Harry is too young to remember that. ;)

No, I actually very clearly having free milk at the state primary school I went to, but then I tend to pay attention to what happened in history and not what people want to have happened, which is one of the reasons I know that Mrs T was actually opposed to the decision to stop some children from having free milk (just look at the cabinet papers from the time, the decision was forced on her).
Ironside 49 | 10,590
15 Jan 2014 #21
Walesa (and other Polish politicians) seem fairly certain that she did have.

To be honest what he says is immaterial. He is changing story every time he opens his mouth.

What does that matter? If a man like Brezhnev would have been in power at that time instead of Gorbachev, you would have seen Soviet tanks crushing any freedom movement including Solidarność. Thus the organization wouldn't exist today.

What are you talking about? Solidarity had been crushed by the forces of Soviet Poles.

he Polish legal system h

So called Polish legal system in reality is a Soviet legal system and they indeed would act to protect status quo in Poland.

Poles here might not have much time for him but they do have respect for him

As you would know what Poles are thinking. Get it over.

here is a distinct difference in the way Walesa is celebrated today by his own (Polish) people AND the way Westerners celebrate and most importantly package Walesa to their own society. Cute butt buddy scenario in play here. The West advertises Walesa as a Soviet defeater and in return Walesa proclaims how it was all made possible by (Insert Western leader). It's really cute.

+1

They simply wanted western attention and publicity to prevent the USSR from interfering (i.e., invadin

Soviet Union wasn't going to invade not in 1981 not in 1989, not at all.

Indeed. And both of those two became utterly delusional eventually.

Indeed as British Tories pretend to be a Consecrative Party when in fact that have been never anything else but opportunists lackeys for the rich.
jon357 63 | 15,441
15 Jan 2014 #22
That generally goes for all conservative parties, I-S. Thatcher and Heath were at least the first party leaders from outside the ruling class.

With Walesa he started off good and got nuttier and more right wing as time went on.
OP Harry
15 Jan 2014 #23
So called Polish legal system in reality is a Soviet legal system and they indeed would act to protect status quo in Poland.

Please don't go back to your rubbish about Poland still being a Soviet run country, there's a good fellow.

As you would know what Poles are thinking. Get it over.

It's a lot easier to know what Poles think when one lives in Poland and speaks to Poles every day than it is when one lives in Denmark, never visits Poland and hardly ever speaks to Poles.
TheOther 6 | 3,818
15 Jan 2014 #24
Soviet Union wasn't going to invade not in 1981 not in 1989, not at all.

Then why the invasion plans of the Soyuz-80 maneuvers?
Ironside 49 | 10,590
15 Jan 2014 #25
You make no sense. Maneuvers and plans are not the same thing. Do you know a first thing about military? I guess not. Every military organization worth its salt has all kind of contingency plans for all and one hypothetical circumstances. What you are looking for is a political decision to implement such a plan. In the 80' after Afghanistan Soviets were not going to invade anyone. Invasion is not correct terminology to describe properly situation, after all in Poland the Red Army kept a strong force till 1992.
Marek11111 9 | 816
15 Jan 2014 #26
Publicly call him that while in Poland, I'd love to see you discover what the Polish legal system has to say about people who commit criminal libel.

if Polish legal system did not jail him then I do not have to worry about calling Walesa Bolek

"Interview with Historian Slawomir Cenckiewicz: 'Positive Proof' Lech Walesa was a Communist Spy"

Maneuvers and plans are not the same thing. Do you know a first thing about military?

well maneuvers are switched to live operation a plan training just goes live and what would happen in Poland in 1981 would not be invasion it would be occupation a take over of a country. I was living in Poland at that time and I have seen through out of the summer train transports of Russian troops and their equipment going west. I would said that Russians had contingent plan for DEC. 1981 if the good general was not successful.
TheOther 6 | 3,818
15 Jan 2014 #27
You make no sense.

Try reading, that helps ... [shrug]
milky 13 | 1,657
15 Jan 2014 #28
Walesa takes full credit for exploding a system that imploded. As for Thatcher, let Elvis sing it...

youtube.com/watch?v=K-BZIWSI5UQ
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,448
10 Jul 2017 #29
Walesa

Lech Wałęsa hospitalised in Gdańsk heart ward for circulatory problems; illness prevented him taking part in anti-government protest
Former Polish president Lech Wałęsa, 73, was taken to the cardiology ward of a Gdańsk hospital with circulatory problems. His son Jarosław told reporters his father had felt faint and was overcome by a general sense of weakness. Wałęsa, who suffers from diabetes, looked unwell with an unnaturally red and puffy face when he attended President Donald Trump's recent speech in Warsaw. He was booed by many in the audience for his bitter feuding with the current conservative government and continued denial that he had briefly been a paid informer of the communist regime in the 1970s. Wałęsa's indisposition prevented him from attending an anti-government protest in Warsaw against a monthly observance of the 2010 Smolensk air disaster that killed all 96 people on board. Among them were many senior military and political leaders including President Lech Kaczyński, the twin brother of the leader of Poland's ruling conservative Law and Justice Party.

Free publicity from anti-government opponents contributes to record turnout at July's Smolensk observance; police set up metal barriers to prevent repeat of violence
Ever since the April 10, 2010 Smolensk air crash, family and friends of the disaster victims as well as sympathisers of the conservative Law and Justice party have held commemorative observances on the 10th of each month. It starts with Holy Mass and is followed by a march to the Presidential Palace where a memorial assembly is held. Since last December a group calling itself Citizens of the Polish Republic began disrupting the commemoration with bullhorns, noise-makers and loud chanting meant to drown out the proceedings. Opponents of the government tried to block June's March of Memory by sitting in the road and were forcibly removed by the police. Former Solidarity activist Władysław Frasyniuk was charged with attacking a police officer during the scuffle. turned into a clash as dozens of protesters staged a sit-in to disrupt the event. "I wish to thank those who want to deprive us of our civil right (to peacefully assemble). We have not had such a turnout and so many priests con celebrating the mass for some time," Law and Justice leader Jarosław Kaczyński said. "We will continue our commemoration until a monument is erected to the late President Lech Kaczyński and another to all the victims," he explained. Police set up metal barriers along both sides of the procession route, preventing a repeat of June's disruption.
mafketis 24 | 8,826
10 Jul 2017 #30
Ever since the April 10, 2010 Smolensk air crash, family and friends of the disaster victims as well as sympathisers of the conservative Law and Justice party have held

...macabre death cult orgies that disgust decent human beings as JK tries desparately to make people forget his crucial role in his brother's tragic death.

Jarosław, it's your fault he's dead, stop dragging the rest of the country into your sick guilt games.


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