SMO as the key to the most stable Eastern Europe in centuries?

OK, so everyone assumes that Poland and Russia are destined for permanent hostility after the SMO in Ukraine.

However... the war in Ukraine will not end in a total victory of either side but in some sort of compromise. It means that Russia will be forced into realism after this imperial overreach and unable to dominate neighbors the way she historically did. Therefore, the end of the war may eventually create the first sustainable Polish-Russian relationship in modern history. Not a great friendship, of course, not a Slavic brotherhood but proper, normal, stable coexistence, as Russia will no longer be an expansionist superpower but rather a defensive, resource-heavy regional power.

To cut the long story short - Russia will become much weaker and Poland, if we don't f*ck something up spectacularly, will become much stronger. This will naturally create a completely different psychology, so to speak, in mutual Russian-Polish relations.

Your thoughts?

@Torq▲ 0▼ 0

@Torq

I agree with the bulk of your post.But Poland and Russia will never trust each other.... too much history.

Poland and Russia will NEVER be friends.

@Miloslaw▲ 0▼ 0

Nonsense.

When there is less disproportion in strength and there are mutual benefits from the normalization of relations, the trust will gradually develop.


Well, this is a bit more complicated but I wouldn't be such a pessimist, Milo. Poles and Russians might have had their differences in the past but we are both Slavic nations, with a healthy dose of interest in each other, as well as many more similarities between us than we would like to admit.

It is debatable whether we can speak about friendship between countries, as countries have their particular interests and they adjust their policies accordingly (e.g. completely different approach to the conflict in Ukraine by Poland and Hungary who are supposed to be best friends and brothers ever), but in normal time of peace, normal trade, normal cultural exchange etc., friendships between individuals are bound to develop; and when you have millions of such friendships, societies will become connected in ways politics alone could never achieve.

@Torq▲ 0▼ 0

This one way how things can turn out.

It is also possible, that Polish troops will in the not too-distant future be busy trying to keep the Sulwaki gap open while Russian troops are invading the Baltic states and Russian missiles and are raining down on Warsaw and Krakow.

I'd say it is impossible to say at this point which scenario is more likely.

@Tacitus▲ 0▼ 0

Would you like that?

For Poland to bleed when your former Ukrainian Waffen-SS allies are no longer able to fight?

Tell us about your dream scenario, Tacitus.

@Torq▲ 0▼ 0

@Tacitus

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@Torq▲ 0▼ 0

Of course not. That is a stupid question.

But it doesn't seem unrealistic, given the nature of Putin's regime and his desire to restore the former Soviet sphere of influence and the necessity to keep the Russian war economy running.

@Tacitus▲ 0▼ 0

Well, I suppose it is not entirely impossible.

One way or another, we have to get ready for war. Weakness provokes. Si vis pacem para bellum, and all that.

@Torq▲ 0▼ 0

Ukraine's EU membership is the deciding factor. If Ukraine joins, it will receive ongoing EU backing, likely at Poland's expense.

On the other hand, Russia may see Poland as a more trustworthy partner for cooperation than Ukraine or the rest of the EU. Over the long term, Poland's relationship with Russia could become friendlier than its relationship with Ukraine.

@Ron2▲ 0▼ 0

...


...

-//-

Where are all the diplomatic and political geniuses that screamed at me throughout 2022-2023 that Russia has "burned bridges with Ukraine for generations"?

I was told that only my great grandchildren may have friendly relations with Ukrainians.

That the Russian language would disappear throughout the territory of Ukraine, to be remembered one day only as a historical artifact.

I told you then - this was wishful thinking.

Today - the majority of the country still speaks Russian, and the Ukrainian press write sad laments about how 80% of school-age children speak Russian at home and during recess.

The Ukrainians are consumed with as much internal hatred as hatred for Russia. There is an increasing amount of voices, recognizing that "they have been had".

Nobody except for absolute marginals is quite yet calling for Putin to come and "bring order", but the people are despairing from the state of things in Ukraine and looking for more and more exotic solutions.

-//-

The two above comments from Torq and Ron show the truth of the adage that, "Twenty four hours in politics is a long time, a month is a lifetime, and a year is an eternity".

Nothing is permanent.

No permanent enemies, no permanent friends.

Look at your relationship with the United States, with each other, within NATO, etc.

@Bobko▲ 0▼ 0

Having substantial experience with Ukrainian companies and people (as well as Russians), if I had to choose whom to trust more, I would trust Russians more than Ukrainians, who are willing to stab you in the back if a better opportunity arises.

Russians can initially be hard to deal with, but are much less likely to let you down when you gained their trust. Obviously, my experience is not on a political, but mostly on a small business level.

@Ron2▲ 0▼ 0

The stereotype of Ukrainians (not just among Russians, but among themselves too) is - «Моя хата с краю».

Translated, it means "my house is on the corner".

They don't care if their neighbor's house is burning, if it doesn't affect them.

Also the phrase, «У соседа корова сдохла - мелочь, но приятно». Translated, "neighbor's cow died, a small thing - but still pleasant".

-//-

Ukrainians are free peasants. As all peasants, they are greedy, reactionist, and selfish.

Russians are serfs. As serfs, they are thieves (but good natured ones), generous, and communitarian. Everything belongs to everyone.

-//-

For a Ukrainian what's most important is what is "his".

For a Russian what's most important is how he is viewed by his community. You lose face in the community - you have lost yourself.

-//-

If you combine a Russian and a Ukrainian, you get one fully formed individual.

@Bobko▲ 0▼ 0

Ah, but you see - they are very moral people. Extremely moral.

They are the very same people who before WW2 were trying to explain to us that borders should be ethnic and that we oppress poor Ukrainians and Lithuanians. That we have no right to own Wilno or Lwów with Samogitian (I am reluctant to use the the word Lithuanian in this case - it would be ahistorical) and Ukrainian majorities all around there. They are the same galactically moral people who were telling us all that whilst they were still major colonial empires (!). I cannot help but admire the depths of their morality.

Thank our Lord Jesus Christ, and thank Our Lady Saint Virgin Mary Queen of Poland, that we allied ourselves to the Soviet Union in the East and formed Polish army in the Soviet Union because if we hadn't, if the boys from LWP (People's Army of Poland) hadn't fought side by side with the Red Army, we would still have lost our Eastern Kresy to the Soviet Union (the laws of war are brutal) but would have gained absolutely nothing in the west. Our moral friends and allies in the West would have made sure of that.

@Torq▲ 0▼ 0

What utter b0llox!

Talking about Ukraine;


More utter b0llox!! is this forum only inhabited by nutters?
The truth is that 81% of Ukrainians speak Ukrainian and only 34% speak Russian, many speak both,about 15%.


And Russians are unfree peasants.....that is a significant difference and why you live in America....to be free.

@Miloslaw▲ 0▼ 0

My family have not been peasants for at least 1,000 years.

@Bobko▲ 0▼ 0

I don't know who Ron is (most probably not a Pole), but I know that Torq is a hopeless RuSSophile, so I'm not sure why you're so exited about what he's saying.


RuSSians, on the other hand, are willing to stab whole countries/nations in the back if Mother RuSSia tells them to. They're not to be trusted on the political level. It doesn't matter for Poland what they're like on "small business" or "personal" level.


I don't know about Ukrainians, but this sounds a lot like RuSSians.


No, they f*cking aren't xD


Wow, what a galactic bullsh1t LOL "We allied ourselves"?? 😂

I can't with this forum... I freaking can't... 🤦

@Paulina▲ 0▼ 0

Guilty as charged!


Well... it was a sort of alliance, wasn't it? Even if not entirely voluntary then, in retrospect, quite beneficial to us. Unless you think Poland without Kresy and without Ziemie Odzyskane would have been a better option after WW2.

Anyways... off to catch some z's. *waves*

@Torq▲ 0▼ 0

Or on ANY level!Russians have been two faced for hundreds of years!


Then they had to be royalty and should have been executed by the Soviets that you love..... otherwise, you lie and they WERE peasants!

@Miloslaw▲ 0▼ 0

No, it was exactly royalty that got executed, while others were allowed to survive - albeit in much diminished shape.

My family is noble, but I don't put very much importance into this, except what they passed on in teachings.

I don't think this makes me better than anyone, or that the long expired titles have any meaning.

All I'm saying is that if you are talking to this specific person, then - no, his ancestors were not peasants.

I have plenty of relatives that would start a 1,000 message thread just because you wrote this - but I don't care personally.

As proof - one time I told my grandma that the Red soldiers probably had their own reasons to do what they did to our family - and she Didnmt speak to me for a week. That's how convinced I was, that we were the bad guys.

@Bobko▲ 0▼ 0

So why do you support the bad guys now?

@Miloslaw▲ 0▼ 0

We didn't. You are spewing some delusional nonsense.
--

Torq, words have meaning for a reason. You can't use a word and attach to it some other meaning. It wasn't alliance, look for some other word. Like pawn.
----

@Ironside▲ 0▼ 0

Yes, we did and yes, it was. Poland was ruled by the Polish United Workers' Party, which were representatives of Polish people - not from the political option that we would prefer the most but it's difficult to argue with facts. Communist Poland was a close ally and a sattelite of the Soviet Union, and no amount of ból dupy will change this simple historical fact. Of course, the relationship in the alliance was unequal, as the USSR had major influence over Polish politics, economy, and security policy - nobody's denynig that.

@Torq▲ 0▼ 0

Dude, if you were talking about the war time, then you are incorrect. You need to be more precise with your words.
Soviet Union created a puppet state with a puppet government. Theoretically they didn't need to do that and yet they did.
should we appreciate it?
I see no reason to appreciate it, they did that for their own reasons and Poles had no agency in all those agreements. In fact very few Poles were engaged in this project mostly they were Soviet citizens of Polish origin or pre-war minorities), only in time it has changed. My grandfather was conscripted into the communist party in 1947.
---
Also, you could say about the London Government in Exile it wasn't fully Polish due to dependence on foreign countries. Yet , it was widely recognized by the Polish people everywhere as legitimate.
Although I have my doubts if they deserved that name. Bleeding Poland under German occupation, especial after 1941 it is on them. It wasn't in Poland's interest but it was in so called allies interest.

@Ironside▲ 0▼ 0

Very few? Everyone in the countryside took land from reforma rolna, so they were very much engaged in the project. But that's just farmers. What about teachers teaching in communist schools? Miners, mining in communist coal mines, communist firefighters, builders, engineers etc. etc.

You cannot cancel the entire country because retards from Lublin took over instead of the retards from London.

@Torq▲ 0▼ 0

From your original post in this thread, which I see as very clear-eyed and even-tempered, you aren't claiming some kind of close alliance with Russia, but a simple relationship with Russia. Like two neighbors who have fenced properties and might wave at one another and talk when something of shared interest comes around-not sleeping with one another or trying to constantly take each other's stuff. A cordial co-existence-a willingness to accept the past but not be a prisoner of it. Yes?

@AntV▲ 0▼ 0

Pretty much.

@Torq▲ 0▼ 0

Torq for President!

@AntV▲ 0▼ 0

Torq to mental hospital to cure his delusions.
Close alliance with Scandinavia and maybe Ukraine and hopefully Turkey plus nukes, will insure good relations with Russia. Talk is cheap and good intentions are out of place.
--

Yep, up to about 1947/48 very few.

@Ironside▲ 0▼ 0

Really, Iron... and you are talking about delusions. :)

Ukraine is neo-banderist, with a lot of anti-Polish resentment, and they themselves said that they see Poland as their rival when the war ends. Turks are cunning pricks who will f*ck you sideways while they smile at you, and if you can see Swedes galloping to save Poland in any scenario, then I congratulate you.

The EU is an economic and industrial giant - being a part of it, we have to try and steer it in the right direction, towards investing more in military industry and acquiring more nukes (some of them under exclusive Polish control). This is the only way in the current circumstances, with the US being ruled by the slightly retarded Russian asset, not relying on Turks, Swedes and Banderites to save us. As regards Ukraine, I would rather consider strengthening the forces on the Polish-Ukrainian border (preferably with strong fortifications line and sh*tloads of drones), as they are the only country from which you sometimes hear territorial territorial claims towards us ("Закерзоння").

@Torq▲ 0▼ 0

Nobody perfect but such alliance would be self-serving. It means everyone take something from it, and those countries would be there in their interest, not because they like each other not because we are friends.
In politics those agreements are most oft than not based on interest. Not feelings, likes and dislikes or something else.
I don't like Ukraine, I don't care about Sweden and i don't have a 'feel' for Turkey.
Those feeling or inclinations do not matter.
We were talking about it and you agreed with me, now you are backpedaling. Is Bobko paying you?

@Ironside▲ 0▼ 0