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Russians 'tortured to death' in Polish camps?


Koala 1 | 332
16 May 2011 #31
Well...it beats putting whole armies as animals when 90 percent are behaved within the laws....

Even ignoring those 10% who were acting out of their free will, you have mass crimes on the system level. Death camps were organized by the state/army and mass genocides commited on nations of Eastern Europe, our most valuable people were murdered first. Then you have organizations like Bund der Vertriebenen on the forefront of Polish-German relations, repeatedly labeling the German death camps as "Polish camps", the propaganda that only Jews were murdered (though this can be blamed more on Jews) and the subject of WW2 still stirs up a lot of emotions.
Bratwurst Boy 9 | 10,424
16 May 2011 #32
Then you have organizations like Bund der Vertriebenen on the forefront of Polish-German relations, repeatedly labeling the German death camps as "Polish camps",

When and where did they do that??? It happens in the media some time but else?
Koala 1 | 332
16 May 2011 #33
Sorry, I didn't mean that that organization did that, I meant mass media doing that.
Mr Grunwald 29 | 1,948
17 May 2011 #34
especially between Germany and France, arch enemies for centuries! :)

Hahaha, don't make me laugh, you for sure ment decades!
English vs French that would been centuries...
Des Essientes 7 | 1,291
17 May 2011 #35
Well Napoleon did conquer Germany slightly over two centuries ago.
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
17 May 2011 #36
Again...for such a supposedly independent thinker you have bought all propaganda hook line and sinker!

Sorry BB in this case i believe in mass responsibility, much like what the Germans practiced towards civilian populations.

Your hate is disturbing nobody, the Germans at least, but only yourself...like a wound festering and stinking under the skin.

Oh come on dont be such a bloody revisionist, i don't hate Germans, why the flying feck would i be interested in pre-war history of this region? I view Germans of WWII era as a bunch of barbarians who needed but did not receive an extremely violent punishment that would serve as an example and warning.

After Germans started WWI and got spanked they didnt really get whats coming to them and got uppity and so started WWII, at this point i believe gassing your soldiers, policemen, activists and all other nazi supporters (which comprised something like a fifth of your nation) in the very gas chambers you had prepared for Jews and Slavs would beat the f*ck out of you.

Nothing like that happened and look at you now, all smug and trying to prove the crimes of your nation were really european the lands you invaded were really german and in the end all you really did was bring civilisation and your poor poor people lost a couple of provinces too!

Seriously if your nazi grandparents and a couple milion more Germans ended up gassed as retribution you'd learn humility.

That said i differentiate between Germans then and today, you're still not our friends but at least business can be done.

Well Napoleon did conquer Germany slightly over two centuries ago.

Yes but it was Germans who took it all to a new level, before there was conquest, sometimes attempting to wipe out a culture but never actually snufffing out entire peoples so f*ck no i believe we should respect WWII german soldiers by dumping their bones into public latrines at best.
Mr Grunwald 29 | 1,948
17 May 2011 #37
Well Napoleon did conquer Germany slightly over two centuries ago.

lol, you must mean Prussia and plenty of minor German states no? :)

That said i differentiate between Germans then and today, you're still not our friends but at least business can be done.

yupp

believe we should respect WWII german soldiers by dumping their bones into public latrines at best.

There were different attitude from different Generals. For instance for the heroes of the defense of the coast. The extreme brutality started after meetings with the NKVD. Before that it was pretty much like a normal war-zone attitude.
Des Essientes 7 | 1,291
17 May 2011 #38
Yes but it was Germans who took it all to a new level

Indeed, the Franco-Prussian War saw them ravage and abuse France in ways that shocked civilized people everywhere but even that pales in comparison to their savagery in subsequent wars. I don't know about your Nazi extermination plan though. It would've caused even more misery and nations really never learn "lessons" that way anyhow.

lol, you must mean Prussia and plenty of minor German states no?

Of course I'd thought of qualifying the "Germany" of the Napoleonic Wars as "what later became Germany" but I thought it would read as overly pedantic.
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
17 May 2011 #39
Indeed, the Franco-Prussian War saw them ravage and abuse France in ways that shocked civilized people everywhere but even that pales in comparison to their savagery in subsequent wars.

War aint fun, it can be glorious but is always horrible and both Germans and French and any other army can be, to some extent forgiven, such is war.

However when Germany invaded my country with the explicit intent of wiping out my people, my family included and then i get lectured by some foreign f*ck about how i should really respect the dead german soldiers who fought for the cause of wiping out everyone in Poland i can't help but feel the urge to kick the insolent piece of sh*t between his teeth.

I don't know about your Nazi extermination plan though. It would've caused even more misery and nations really never learn "lessons" that way anyhow.

F*ck misery, it would have beat the revisionist, racists tendencies out of Germany for good, even our little german BratwurstBoy, a smart likeable chap deep down is a revisionist twat who's only real grip with his nation is not that it acted like it did but that it lost, and thats true of most Germans.

So i believe after WWII Germany needed to have its balls removed via gassing everyone in uniform, civilian or military, they'd never start even thinking about revisionism after something like that.
Des Essientes 7 | 1,291
17 May 2011 #40
a revisionist twat who's only real grip with his nation is not that it acted like it did but that it lost, and thats true of most Germans.

Indeed that guy's claiming Germans acted respectfully towards Poles on the basis of one photograph of a marked grave some Germans dug for some Polish soldiers killed in battle during WW2 infuriated me not only for its revisionism but for the stupidity of the inductive reasoning of the revisionism, but I can't believe that a majority of Germans are that shameless.
Mr Grunwald 29 | 1,948
17 May 2011 #41
pedantic.

I am an "pedant" :)

that a majority of Germans are that shameless.

There were some professionals, or "Prussian" officers whom even disliked stories that came from the front. An good example is how Rommel behaved when he had quite a lot of freedom being far away from Germany helping Italians in Africa.

On the eastern front, the SS had the tightiest control on things. The movie Stalingrad depicted that quite good
Still, killings, and all the worst were still done :/
TheOther 5 | 3,711
17 May 2011 #42
So i believe after WWII Germany needed to have its balls removed via gassing everyone in uniform, civilian or military,

Pointing the finger at the Germans and at the same time behaving like an animal yourself doesn't go together very well. What would be the difference between you and a Nazi then? Sorry, Sok, but I can't believe that you really mean what you are saying here. That sounds more like stirring sh*t.
Bratwurst Boy 9 | 10,424
17 May 2011 #43
Indeed that guy's claiming Germans acted respectfully towards Poles on the basis of one photograph of a marked grave some Germans dug for some Polish soldiers killed in battle during WW2 infuriated me not only for its revisionism

I'm sure the photo is faked...somehow doctored...these mean revisionists them...can't be trusted!

Germans shamelessly learned from that too..not wishing another holocaust onto the jewish people as some arab-lovers do.

So i believe after WWII Germany needed to have its balls removed via gassing everyone in uniform, civilian or military, they'd never start even thinking about revisionism after something like that.

Feel better now?

*hugs Sok* I like you too!

That said i differentiate between Germans then and today, you're still not our friends but at least business can be done.

You know that is the one attitude I really have problems with (seen in Poles and Jews especially).

All this griping about wars never stops "business" or holding out the hands for money and support. Where is the pride in that?

I can accept grumbling and mumbling and hostility but I have problems with that...If you really hate someone you don't take his money or make "business" with them.

Today Germany and Poland are about to get joint at the hip as France and Germany already are...where does that leave your death wishes??? ;)
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
17 May 2011 #44
All this griping about wars never stops "business" or holding out the hands for money and support. Where is the pride in that?

Thats the problem BB, we hang on to our pride and never do business, Germans are shrewd and shameless businessmen and so are Jews, nothing wrong with that, seems us Poles only get to grips with the times recetly.

I can accept grumbling and mumbling and hostility but I have problems with that...If you really hate someone you don't take his money or make "business" with them.

But neither me nor Poles in general hate Germans (Jews is another thing alltogether) we might be resentfull, distrustfull and not like Germany much but then again Germany did try to wipe us out and when you look at it like that 65 years is VERY little time but no hate.

Notice i'm interested in things german, in Jawor i went to a Pole leading a polish history circle interested in german history of Jawor, i like you as a guy i'd gladly have a beer with you but dont expect us to love Germany only 65 years after you tried to off all of us, there's no hate here, at all but there's no love either.

And business needs to roll if we're to prosper.

Today Germany and Poland are about to get joint at the hip as France and Germany already are...where does that leave your death wishes??? ;)

Nowhere, my death wishes are directed towards 1945 Germany and live firmly in the "should have been" fairy land, i'm totally OK with modern Germany though they're still not our friends due to their revisionism but thats a personal opinion.

What would be the difference between you and a Nazi then?

I'd be more thorough.

Sorry, Sok, but I can't believe that you really mean what you are saying here. That sounds more like stirring sh*t.

I do an asston of trolling lately but at this point i'm at my absolutely honest side, IF the clock got turned and i got into say Joseph Stalins seat i'm reopen gas chambers and send every SS, NSDAP, Gestapo, Wechrmacht officer and soldier in untill german armed forces would be so much soap, then i'd run a nation wide investigation into all civilians active within the nazi party and gas them as well, give the f*ckers a taste of their own medicine.

I firmly believe that every german who willingly served the 3rd Reich deserved death.

Ps. just to clarify i dont hate Germans, i dont even hate WWII era Germany, i just believe that any self aware nation who attempts something like that deserves to have their nose wiped firmly in the litter box, example and warning go a long way.
Bratwurst Boy 9 | 10,424
17 May 2011 #45
Well...I'm okay with that.

I learned to like the Poles actually since I came to this board...maybe it doesn't need to take another 65 years between us.

*beer*

PS: Apropos Jawor...any news?
z_darius 14 | 3,968
17 May 2011 #46
But neither me nor Poles in general hate Germans

Same here.
I had some of the best times when I lived in Berlin and all the Gerries were awesome buddies.
I only regret I lost the ability to speak the language.
And I'll never forget that sexy announcer on U-bahn: Die nächste Station Kurfürstendamm. I remember that one moment cuz that's when I realized that German didn't sound like WW2 movies at all!

I fell in love with the voice. The chick, as it turned out, was in her 60's :)
Bratwurst Boy 9 | 10,424
17 May 2011 #47
:)
I believe they get screened for their voices! :)
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
17 May 2011 #48
PS: Apropos Jawor...any news?

Yes and now, mr Pacak doesnt have any news himself but there's a guy in Poznań who has extensive archives and found something, he's going to e-mail the pictures and documents to me around this week.
Palivec - | 380
17 May 2011 #50
Hahaha, don't make me laugh, you for sure ment decades!
English vs French that would been centuries...

No, centuries is right. Since the 17th century, when France devastated large parts of western and southern Germany.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ez%C3%A9chiel_du_Mas,_Comte_de_M%C3%A9lac

I firmly believe that every german who willingly served the 3rd Reich deserved death.

What would you do with Poles who willingly served Commie Poland? No death chamber of course, but shouldn't at least all civil rights be revoked? After all is was a oppressive regime too?!
MediaWatch 10 | 945
17 May 2011 #51
Poland was under communist rule which for decades got on with teaching hate and a kind of history which needed a common enemy which made the Russian the goodies...

How can that be when the Communists, who controlled Poland and its history books, were pro-Soviet Russia?

I spoke to a French guy the other day and asked him what he thought about the Germans and although he rolled his eyes and said well "they're OK" he then later emphasized that there is no way the French people could ever forgive or forget what the Germans did to them. That sentiment seemed to be right on the tip of his tongue despite all these years after WWII. I kind of found that surprising since there are some like yourself talking about how the French and Germans are all reconciled now and good buddies. I don't think that's so. So it looks like parts of the West still have a little way to go to complete their reconciliation with Germany.

Maybe the French and German governments are pals, but I think the French and German people have more of a relationship of reluctant toleration for each other then actual reconciliation.
Palivec - | 380
17 May 2011 #52
I spoke to a French guy the other day and asked him what he thought about the Germans and although he rolled his eyes and said well "they're OK" he then later emphasized that there is no way the French people could ever forgive or forget what the Germans did

Oh wow, a single person.
news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/bsp/hi/pdfs/05_03_11_bbcws_country_poll.pdf
MediaWatch 10 | 945
17 May 2011 #53
Oh wow, a single person.

Oh wow he wasn't the only one. Just the latest one.

Also your link doesn't focus on France.
Bratwurst Boy 9 | 10,424
17 May 2011 #54
MW..If I meet someone who tells a polish joke...what does that tell me about Poland?

The french-german relationships are okay...Germany get's regular good grades from the French up in the 70-80 percent for years...that's good as it gets. More would be unnormal.

And ask yourself why the Soviet-communists in Poland should paint the Soviets in glorious light against the fascist West, they had been mortal enemies for decades.

goethe.de/Ins/jp/lp/prj/wza/defr/en2281618.htm

A joint German/French history schoolbook....you can't much more reconciliate than that!

news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/4972922.stm

dw-world.de/dw/article/0,,2078903,00.html

I found that fact most interesting...it hat been French and German youth behind that in the first place:

...
Naturally, students are the book's target audience, but they were also the impulse behind it. Participants in the French-German Youth Parliament meeting in 2003, on the 40th anniversary of the Élysée Franco-German Friendship Treaty, proposed the project, which was then taken up by the German Department for Foreign Affairs and the French Ministry of Education.

Can you imagine a Polish-German joint history book some time?
Palivec - | 380
17 May 2011 #55
Also your link doesn't focus on France.

Scroll down. Germany gets high marks from France... and Italy.
ConstantineK 26 | 1,259
17 May 2011 #56
The camp in Strzalkow was built during the war of 1919-21, when Soviets attacked newly released Poland.

But who gave you the right to proclaim the independence?
AdamKadmon 2 | 508
17 May 2011 #57
If you understand Russian watch this film.
youtube.com/view_play_list?p=CFEF4ACB0069D662

As for what you mean by saying the above, I do not understand you. But the film is a good one. Enjoy watching.
MediaWatch 10 | 945
17 May 2011 #58
And ask yourself why the Soviet-communists in Poland should paint the Soviets in glorious light against the fascist West, they had been mortal enemies for decades.

errrrr...what? Not sure of your point.

Maybe the Soviet Communists in Poland painted a positive picture of the Soviet Union because.....um......they took orders from them? I dunno.


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