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Polish and Russian soul anno 1914 and today


gumishu 11 | 5,629
11 May 2011 #31
gumishu:

yeah sure he imposed Georgian imperial policies on poor Russians - everybody had to learn Goergian or end up in a GULAG

he didn't - but you are quoting him to demonstrate "Russian distrust of Poles".

it wasn't me who quoted this - still you point out Stalin not being Russian as if if it was somebody else in his place (an ethnic Russian) the policies of the Soviet Union towards Poland and Polish people would have been much different
Wiedzmin_fan - | 79
11 May 2011 #32
gumishu

still you point out Stalin not being Russian as if if it was somebody else in his place (an ethnic Russian) the policies of the Soviet Union towards Poland and Polish people would have been much different

It is possible that they wouldn't have been. However, we can't let the debate about the Polish and Russian "souls" be framed by the words of an outsider.
gumishu 11 | 5,629
11 May 2011 #33
framed by the words of an outsider.

outsider of what?? of Russian language? very much doubt it - of communism? - you answer it for yourself?

please think a while before stating that Stalin was an outsider even in tsarist Russia (not to mention communist Russia)
chichimera 1 | 186
11 May 2011 #34
people’s views and insights into the mentality of modern Poles and Russian and see if they somehow overlap N. A. Berdaev’s observations from 1914

Oh, yes. I can't speak for the Russians, but I've observed that they don't trust us and I have always found that intriguing - I've wittnesed situations where a Russian/Russians seemed unable or rather unwilling to fit in a group of Poles, who were clearly very friendly.

I also agree with Berdaev's view that we have a very strong feeling of the inner freedom. And the more outwardly oppressed we are, the more inwardly independent we feel. We don't consider cooperation with the oppressor practical but shameful.

We also do see Russians as uncivilised and an attitude of superiority towards them is quite common :( "What would you expect? That's Russia for you. They're wild." - a common thing to hear. Maybe I've just answered my own question - maybe they sense the ugly attitude of ours and that's why don't want to make friends with us.
OP FlaglessPole 4 | 669
11 May 2011 #35
Oh, yes. I can't speak for the Russians, but I've observed that they don't trust us and I have always found that intriguing - I've wittnesed situations where a Russian/Russians seemed unable or rather unwilling to fit in a group of Poles, who were clearly very friendly.

Did that take place in UK? I friend of mine (English)used to work as a bartender in a club in London. The place was co-owned by Russians and Poles and frequented mainly by these two nationalities. According to my friend Russian and Poles were getting along just fine.
chichimera 1 | 186
11 May 2011 #36
According to my friend Russian and Poles were getting along just fine.

I'm happy to know that. I personally like Russians, I'm fascinated by the country and the culture.

I witnessed the situations both in Poland and in the UK. Obviously it's a generalization, but even the article of Berdaev is. I come from Eastern Poland - probably our feelings towards Russians are stronger than in the western part of the country - our hate for them just as intense as our love for them :)
southern 75 | 7,096
11 May 2011 #37
Where you see Russians on vaccations there are always Poles as well.They choose the same places and this is not coincidental.
Generally Russians are more aggressive that is why they seem obnoxious to the others.Direct and aggressive Poles are a bit more refined though slavic.The Russians have everything the West accuses the Poles of but in a larger extent they are unlimited unprohibited.That is why the West shivers sometimes of Russians but has never shivered because of Poles.
Des Essientes 7 | 1,291
11 May 2011 #38
Where you see Russians on vaccations there are always Poles as well.They choose the same places and this is not coincidental.

This reminds me of Mann's Death In Venice which very much keeps to the Poles as sneering aristocrats and Russians as earthy egalitarians stereotypes. "He [Tadzio, a Pole] looked towards the diagonal row of cabins; and the sight of the Russian family, leading their lives there in joyous simplicity, distorted his features in a spasm of angry disgust. His brow darkened , his lips curled, one corner of the mouth was drawn down in harsh line that marred the curve of the cheek, his frown was so heavy that the eyes seemed to sink in as they uttered beneath the black vicious language of hate."
boletus 30 | 1,366
11 May 2011 #39
Contributing to the ongoing generalization process from my part of the woods - Toronto:
Educated Russians are as any other people: nice, polite, subtle, intelligent. I am a friend with few of them. They are normal since they do not have to prove anything to anyone.

Lower class Russians tend to congregate together and they are often loud and obnoxious. Having them as neighbours in an apartment building is not fun at all. They rarely associate with Poles. A lot is being said about Russian mafia presence in Toronto, but this has not affected me personally so far.

"Kurwa" Poles are also a nuisance when in group but since they usually socialize at the same specific bars, I rarely see them where I go. Individual blue-collar Poles are OK, since they at least try to fit to the local population. When visiting bars they have their few beers and a little smalltalk with locals and then they go home.

There are always few Ukrainians on a periphery of any Polish neighbourhood. Polish owners of small business (construction, services) do not mind giving them some work. Established Ukrainian communities fair well and there is some interaction between two groups: both positive and negative. I have mixed observation here although I have met several young ladies working for the same company as I did and they were OK.

So much for the generalization of national characters.
OP FlaglessPole 4 | 669
11 May 2011 #40
So much for the generalization of national characters.

PF does that to you. Anyways that's your observation, no need to be ashamed of it ;)
chichimera 1 | 186
11 May 2011 #41
PF does that to you.

:)

Educated Russians are as any other people: nice, polite, subtle, intelligent

Lower class Russians tend to congregate together and they are often loud and obnoxious

But isn't that the difference between educated people and "lower class" people of any nation? :)

A lot is being said about Russian mafia

We believe that what's most characteristic and also most scary about the Russian mafia is that they have no sense of ethics whatsoever - unlike the Italian or even the Polish mafias, where a peculiar sort of ethics is very important.

Also I remember old people's reminiscences about WWII and they would sometimes compare Russian soldiers with the German ones and picture the former as totally unpredictable and barbarian.

Yet, just to be fair, it's not like I never hear Poles talking about Russians with sympathy. I think we find them a little mysterious.

I particularly remember a Russian friend of mine I used to have back in Poland - he could tell stories! He was better than the movies :) At some point he got upset with us (the group of friends) and that wrath of his seemed to me so exaggerated; and the fact that he was unable to forgive even after long time I still find difficult to understand.

And one thing he always accused us (as a nation) of was that we "fornicate with the West". It used to drive me mad, because I believed it wasn't fornication but simply freedom we'd gained after getting rid of the USSR. Now I'm not so sure :(
Des Essientes 7 | 1,291
11 May 2011 #42
Berdyaev's essay is a curious mix of truth and falsity as is evinced by the following sentence: "The Polish people, so little capable at building a state, was endowed though with features individualistic and anarchistic, and proved spiritually strong and indestructible." Can Berdyaev make the claim that Poles lack state building capacity when he knows that the Polish state had been supremely powerful for centuries? I don't think he can and the Second Republic definitely proved him wrong, but I believe he is right about the "individualistic and anarchistic" features of the Polish soul. These features of the Polish soul are part and parcel of its aristocratic nature for, as Emma Goldman said, "all anarchists are aristocrats."
Wiedzmin_fan - | 79
12 May 2011 #43
outsider of what?? of Russian language? very much doubt it

Stalin's broken and heavily accented Russian is not notorious in Poland? Stalin was an outsider (and an enemy) of Russian ethnos.
chichimera 1 | 186
12 May 2011 #44
Berdyaev's essay is a curious mix of truth and falsity

Like every generalization.

"The Polish people, so little capable at building a state, was endowed though with features individualistic and anarchistic, and proved spiritually strong and indestructible

That one I find very truthful. Yes, we are capable of building a state, but you can't deny that we do and have been all along struggled with it because of our individualistic and anarchistic tendencies.
Des Essientes 7 | 1,291
12 May 2011 #45
all along struggled with it because of our individualistic and anarchistic tendencies.

I'd say that it was Poland's neighbors, with their conformist and totalitarian tendencies, that caused Poland to struggle to maintain its statehood. The First Republic, despite its anarchical nature, was a viable political entity.


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