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Polish relation about Russians, Ukrainians?


Dominika99 1 | 93
4 Nov 2012 #181
So much for the eternal friendship... :-)

I didn't say friendship. Dostoyevsky didn't like Poles, and the Pushkin-Mickiewicz relationship was a turbulent one. Other Russian writers admired him more. That doesn't mean Polish and Russian writers weren't influenced by each other. Considering they're next door, and have been neighbors for centuries, it would be impossible for no exchange to take place.
sofijufka 2 | 191
4 Nov 2012 #182
Dominika, I advise you to read memories of Waclaw Lednicki.
zetigrek
4 Nov 2012 #183
But they don't often throw bottles at them or make up murderous conspiracy theories.

How about neonazi marches at borderline towns? Was it 2 or 3 years ago when such thing had place in some German town near Polish border?
I don't want to point fingers at other nations and dig up dirt about them, it's not my intention by any manner of means... it just to show that compromising incidents can happen everywhere and based on them you can draw conclusions if you want but what makes you any different then from all those nasty stereotyping people you despise so much?

As for the consipracy theory, I heard many of them: 9/11 being a plot, chmitrails, fluoride water being a way of subjucate minds of people by communists, zeitgeist... you can find paranoics everywhere. Besides that I've already written that 60-odd % of Poles don't believe in the theory about assassination, yet you label them all.

It's also more socially acceptable in Poland to stereotype other races, and I've noticed this repeatedly. Stereotypes are the norm, but that's no excuse to sit back and do nothing?

Ok, so do something. Start from yourself and stop labelling and stereotyping your own compatriots, how about that?

What I hate is when Poles deny their Slavic heritage to try and blend into the EU.

Why don't you compare Poles to Croats or Serbs for example? The point is Slavic ethnicity is a broad group which is devided into subgroups: western, eastern and southern. The devision is distinctive beacause each of this group went different path of developement. You cannot mix that up. It's not denying "Slavic heritage", it's just about not mixing those things up. Poles belongs to Western Slavic ethnic group not Eastern or Southern.

I love Poland, and like all Poles

Yet you talk about them in a condescending vein.

Russia hasn't influenced Polish culture and vice versa

I'm curious about the "vice versa" part.
No one denies that Russia influenced somewhat Poland, that's certain, but one can say that Germany in fluenced Poland on the same extend.

We think we're better than the Ukrainians and the undemocratic Kremlin.

Please, no one gave you the right to talk on behalf of Polish people. Drop that sociologist vein and speak for yourself.
As for feeling better people from richer countries usually feel better than people from the poorer countries. I don't agree that Poles feel superior to Rusia, becasue it's a superpower, even if not all of it's citizens have a quality life, but I agree that SOME Poles feel superior to Ukrainians - that's because they consider them poorer and to be migrant workers. It's a great irony that some people thinks so, despite Poles being migrant worker themselves.

I said I don't know much about what the Ukrainians did in Poland during WWII, and about the history of the Orthodox church. There is nothing wrong with not knowing everything.

But when you make assumptions on your lack of knowledge then it's not very good either.

It's not quite Europe when it comes to hatred against Russians and other stereotypes. Most of Europe is striving for better relations with Russia, and our inability to fully get there is also hurting us financially.

The current situation is a fault of one certain Polish party.
Also no one gave you right or credibility to define what's European and what's not.
Wulkan - | 3,243
4 Nov 2012 #184
Considering they're next door, and have been neighbors for centuries, it would be impossible for no exchange to take place.

this is one ridiculous assumption...
Dominika99 1 | 93
4 Nov 2012 #185
Dominika, I advise you to read memories of Waclaw Lednicki.

Thanks for the tip, I'll see if I can order that online somewhere. I googled and he sounds fascinating.

Start from yourself and stop labelling and stereotyping your own compatriots, how about that?

This is a strange bit of advice coming from someone who's labeled *me provincial, arrogant and hateful of Poland. If you continue to make personal attacks and assumptions about my private life, then I will stop replying to you. It's getting tedious.

I'm not labeling anybody. Many Poles have a deep distrust of Russia that can't be compared to the British not liking Poles, because it's something that goes back for centuries. The fact that other countries have stereotypes too doesn't mean we should ignore our own problems or accept them as natural.

Nobody here has so far compared Poles to Croats or Serbs. All I've heard is how western European we are, and how we've been influenced by France, etc. Maybe so, but we're still not talking much about our common Slavic ties, whether it's because of insecurity or superiority, or ignorance, or any other reason.and we should because it's who we are.
boletus 30 | 1,366
4 Nov 2012 #186
That doesn't mean Polish and Russian writers weren't influenced by each other. Considering they're next door, and have been neighbors for centuries, it would be impossible for no exchange to take place.

What centuries? Since when? Seriously, don't leave us in our blissful ignorance and tell us all about the early Polish-Russian cultural exchanges.

Well, I'll help you a bit ...

Before the 1480, when Muscovite were still under the Mongol yoke of the Golden Horde? Hardly.

During the rule of Ivan III The Great (or Fierce) (1440-1505), who considered himself an heir to the fallen Byzantine Empire and defender of the Orthodox Church? And his second wife Sophia Paleologina (married in 1472), a niece of the last Emperor of Constantinople? This was the time when Russia was opening to the West and inviting western architects and builders to erect its first stone and brick churches and castles.

[For a comparison it was Polish King, Kazimierz III The Great (1310-1370), who managed similar deeds about 150 years before in Poland. He was considered the great builder of Poland, according to the saying: "Zastał Polskę drewnianą, zostawił murowaną". ]

Well, Iwan III was an ambitious man, and he went into two first wars with the Grand Duchy of Lithuania: 1492-1494, 1500-1503. Then his son Vasil III started the third war (1507-1508), and the fourth war (1512-1522). The fifth Lithuanian-Muscovite war (1534-1537) started after Vasil's death, when his son Ivan IV The Terrible was just a three years old boy.Then there were many years of so-called Livonian wars, when Livonia, Denmark, Sweden, Poland-Lithuania and Muscovite were engaged, alliances formed, broken and reformed. Started by Ivan the Terrible in 1568 (Mark 1569 - Union of Lublin, and establishment of Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth) and ending in 1583.

Now, considering all of this: where do you see any room whatsoever for the Polish-Muscovite cultural exchange? Should I go on into the 17 century? Time of Troubles (Wielka Smuta, Smutnye vriemia), 1612, Chmielnicki Uprising, Swedish Potop (Deluge), and so on?

Your view of history of Poland is so naive, yet you do not hesitate to share with us your contrived ideas about "centuries old" cultural exchanges between Poland and Russia. Russian literature of XV-XVII, from the reunification period, was mostly devoted to glorification of Muscovite history and to various chronicles. As such, it were completely inconsequential to the Polish culture.

In Poland, chronicles written in Latin (XII c - XV c) were already well known and popular; first poems, and songs written in Polish appeared in the same period; religious texts, such as sermons, translations of Old Testament to Polish or musical codex; first codification of Polish Law (£aski Statuses, 1505) are also from that period. Poland already had its Renaissance poets, writers, publicists, professors: Copernicus, Polish-Latin poet Janicki, Rej, Kochanowski, Skarga, Frycz Modrzewski. So as you see: there is nothing common between Russia and Poland of that era, but the wars.

I do not deny the influence of so-called "golden age" (XIX c.) of Russian literature on Polish culture. Aleksander Puszkin, Fiodor Dostojewski, Michaił Lermontow, Lew Tołstoj, Nikołaj Gogol, Aleksandr Nikołajewicz Ostrowski, Iwan Turgieniew, Nikołaj Niekrasow, Wasilij Żukowski, Fiodor Tiutczew, Michaił Sałtykow-Szczedrin, Wissarion Bieliński i Taras Szewczenko (writing in Ukrainian as well).

But for God's sake, take back your naive "centuries of influence".
Dominika99 1 | 93
4 Nov 2012 #187
I do not deny the influence of so-called "golden age" (XIX c.) of Russian literature on Polish culture.

Well then, we agree. I guess you're just arguing to argue?

But for God's sake, take back your naive "centuries of influence".

It didn't end in the 19th century.
boletus 30 | 1,366
4 Nov 2012 #188
Well then, we agree. I guess you're just arguing to argue?

No madam, I quoted your contrived statement:

That doesn't mean Polish and Russian writers weren't influenced by each other. Considering they're next door, and have been neighbors for centuries, it would be impossible for no exchange to take place.

That was simply not true. So I corrected you, that's it.
Dominika99 1 | 93
4 Nov 2012 #189
Just because the two nations had a bloody history of wars and occupations doesn't mean they weren't influenced by each other. Your wikipedia-style rundown of Russian history did nothing to convince me, but thank you for the effort.
boletus 30 | 1,366
4 Nov 2012 #190
Just because the two nations had a bloody history of wars and occupations doesn't mean they weren't influenced by each other.

Prove it madam, what you just said; otherwise stop abusing our patience with your naive statements.
Dominika99 1 | 93
4 Nov 2012 #191
This is interesting, if you've got the time and the curiosity:

muse.jhu.edu/books/9780253110541
boletus 30 | 1,366
4 Nov 2012 #192
Would you summarize that period of the great mutual cultural influence, which I just rejected off hand?

Although I am familiar with some publications from University of Indiana I cannot download those particular files. I am not associated with Athens, Shibbolet or project Muse. The short summaries that I could read do not indicate anything about that early periods I discussed.
OP Vlad123 7 | 204
5 Nov 2012 #194
There was a brief period when history hit media - when some people wanted to name one of the Euro 2012 stadium in honour of Stepan Bandera, the other time was when some Ukrainian organisation tried to get visas for a kids' trip which was led in honour of Bandera as well.

Even if majority of Ukrainains do not really care who was Bandera and do not want to (and I do not see why they have to), and some politicians try to use his name in political speculations, shouldn`t Polish mass media be clever and not engage in a childish fight?I understend, of course, it could be outrageous according to their beliefs but still it is not in Poland where they want to name something but in Ukraine.Why should Poles care too much about it?If Georgians would install monument to Stalin they will take it as a personal abuse too? Mention of Bandera from Polish side could only damage relations between nations and/or hurt Ukrainian national idea at present stage.Let`s wait for another 60 years and history will ultimately draw the last line.

I still not completely aware why OUN/UPA soldiers should be reffered in Polish history books or mass media as ``Ukrainians``. There was never in history Ukrainian state until 1991.Did Polish government officially used word ``Ukrainians`` in 1939? Wasn`t ``Ruthenians`` officially accepted name?The version of Ukrainian language they spoke in Galitsia was/is rather dialect of Polish.It is not exacly modern Ukrainian official laguage. Certainly they have lots of Polish blood too. Why they have lot in common with rest of Ukraine (60 % of whom do not even speak Ukrainian in everyday life)? So maybe Poles will call them ``Ruthenian Insergent Army`` istead? And also will not forget to mention in history books that there is many unknown circumstances and some of them are disputed?Some guy on this forum mentioned that books in Toronto Polish bookstores are full of that hatefull staff.Maybe some will put poster on doors of bookstore with explanation that everithing in those books shouldn`t be taken as granted?

I still do not understand idea of some Poles: ``we will not friend with you beacause some Ruthenians/Ukrainians did something bad
to our ancestors 70-700 years ago. Or Russians ocupied our country 44 years``. Well, Mongols ocupied other countries for hudreds of years, war waged by German Nizies lead to death of 30+ millions of people, English and French waged Hundred Years' War with each other. And what should be now done to all of them ???!!!

but unfortunately it's also the Polish media fault which heated up the atmosphere against that march by portraing it as a political manifestation against Poles.

How than you would also explain expression of:

Wojciech Wisniewski, a member of the Polish Union of Football Fans, added: “Somebody really wants to make Polish football fans attack the Russians.”

Zibi - | 336
5 Nov 2012 #195
Vlad123, you are a pinko red homo soveticus, you had learnt sovietlike history from soviet books, which have always lied, and you are (at best) a russified Ukrainian, but not a real one. Those Ukrainians we have historical problems with, at least are self conscious and they do not bow to Kremlin propaganda like you do.
boletus 30 | 1,366
5 Nov 2012 #196
So maybe Poles will call them ``Ruthenian Insergent Army`` istead?

Having selective reading problem, no comprehension? I mentioned some Toronto bookstores but I did not say which ones. But since you are such a clever boy, here is your exact answer: that includes both Polish and Ukrainian bookstores. So spare me this advice.

Let me quote you a statement from Wiktor Poliszczuk (1925-2008), of mixed Polish-Ukrainian blood:

In Canada, after the first few months of my stay here I met with almost zoological Ukrainian nationalism, with hatred of all things Polish. Being brought up in the spirit of Ukrainian patriotism, formed by the classical Polish, Ukrainian, Russian, Western European and American literature, I could not agree with such view of the world and the people, therefore, with the full knowledge of that what Bandera people did to the Polish people of Volhynia, I decided to search for materials on Ukrainian nationalism. This topic has consumed me completely, I have been working on it constantly.

/wiki/Wiktor_Poliszczuk

Wiktor Poliszczuk was the author of over 200 papers, books and scientific publications, scientific articles, polemics, reviews, and press releases written in English, Ukrainian and Polish, including five large volumes bearing the title Integral Ukrainian nationalism as a variant of fascism (Toronto, 2003).

Oh, how some ultras from the Ukrainian community in Toronto hated him for that.

For the rest of your post I have only this to say: You construe some statements in your own mind in order to assign their ownership to somebody else. And then you question those statements. Are you arguing with yourself or what?

Take for example this from the other post:

I do not understand how mentally normal person could be very concerned with something that was commited 70 years ago by insignificant, mentally troubled part of entire population and believe that those Nazi collaborators represented all Ukrainians.

What the feck is this? Who said "that those Nazi collaborators represented all Ukrainians"? Go back, find such quote in this thread. I can guarantee that, hard as you might try, you will not find it. It seems that the only "mentally troubled" person is actually you by procuring such stuff.

Do you believe that Ukrainians are genetically predipositioned to kill Poles?Or they are inferior?If not then what is a sense in all those talks?

This is another example of your made up stuff. Nobody believe such trash, but it is exactly you who made it up and who disputes it. Start behaving like an adult, not like adolescent, or a red pioneer. As I said before, I am not exactly pleased with your propaganda.

Try this link - it contains most of the introduction, which should give you a good overview of the book's claims:

Well, Dominika, the ball is still in your court. The link you provided shows only few sample pages, taken out of context, with many pages missing - and most of all - they are not on topic I disputed; namely, supposed cultural exchange between Poland and Myscovy during the first 17-18 centuries A.D. Most of the stuff, which is there deals with the Russian identity issue, arising from 19 century.

The only one little pearl, on topic, I found there was this:

In the 17th century, the first influential imports of Polish Renaissance and Baroque literature.

But this is far cry from "centuries of mutual cultural exchange".
OP Vlad123 7 | 204
5 Nov 2012 #197
According to the links I posted Poles are Westerners. Read the links.

Geographically Poland is still part of Eastern Europe.
Are Poles treated in more Western countries as someyhing equal to local
population?Some Pole on this forum mentioned that plenty of people still
treat them as ``an Asian hordes``.

Go back, find such quote in this thread. I can guarantee that, hard as you might try, you will not find it.

Did I make citation of you thread?I didn`t make any reference to it.I didn`t address my expression to
any particular person on this forum.
TheOther 6 | 3,692
5 Nov 2012 #198
According to the links I posted Poles are Westerners.

Wishful thinking. Most people in Western Europe will probably tell you that everything East of the old Iron Curtain is Siberia - inhabited by dirt poor East European commies... :)
Grzegorz_ 51 | 6,161
5 Nov 2012 #199
Geographically Poland is still part of Eastern Europe.

Interesting. Please prove it.

English and American white protestants used to treat Irish as sub-humans. Did it mean they were not western Europeans ?
TheOther 6 | 3,692
5 Nov 2012 #200
Interesting. Please prove it.

Well, if you wait for the continental drift do run its course, maybe Poland will be part of Western Europe in a few million years. Or Africa... :)

youtube.com/watch?v=hSdlQ8x7cuk
OP Vlad123 7 | 204
5 Nov 2012 #201
Interesting. Please prove it.

In Microsoft Encarta Encyclopedia 2000 year eddition on a clickable World
map it was reffered as part of Eastern Europe.I still didn``t see any Western
geographical atlas on which it would be part of Western Europe.
zetigrek
5 Nov 2012 #202
shouldn`t Polish mass media be clever and not engage in a childish fight?

Who said that Polish media are clever? As everywhere in the world they crave for sensation.

still it is not in Poland where they want to name something but in Ukraine.Why should Poles care too much about it?

Beacause, you brainiac, Poland and Ukraine were organising Euro 2012 together, have you already forgot?
And the kids' trail thing was to be led through Poland.

I still not completely aware why OUN/UPA soldiers should be reffered in Polish history books or mass media as ``Ukrainians``.

They are refered as "Ukrainian NATIONALISTS".

Did Polish government officially used word ``Ukrainians`` in 1939?

I think so. Even those lands were called "Ukraine" in colloquial language I believe.

And also will not forget to mention in history books that there is many unknown circumstances and some of them are disputed?Some guy on this forum mentioned that books in Toronto Polish bookstores are full of that hatefull staff.Maybe some will put poster on doors of bookstore with explanation that everithing in those books shouldn`t be taken as granted?

What I take for granted is that they killed many Poles including my family members. Please stop downplay that event or dening that it happened. It's downright offensive. I have nothing against Ukrainians, of course if they are not hateful to Poles which I want to believe most are not.

I still do not understand idea of some Poles: ``we will not friend with you beacause some Ruthenians/Ukrainians did something badto our ancestors 70-700 years ago. Or Russians ocupied our country 44 years``.

What I don't understand is why you keep on obstinantly abiding on your notions and preconception about what Poles think about Russians and Ukrainians. No matter what we will write to you, even if that was Poles love Russians and Ukrainians, you will still go on with your "why Poles hate Russians and Ukrainians?" questions. Does this discussion have any sense?

You construe some statements in your own mind in order to assign their ownership to somebody else. And then you question those statements. Are you arguing with yourself or what?

Beautifully said boletus! That's exactly what I meant! :)

How than you would also explain expression of:

???
Could you rephrase this question or correct the language errors because I have no slightest idea what are you asking me.
Wulkan - | 3,243
5 Nov 2012 #203
Geographically Poland is still part of Eastern Europe.

According to the Central Intelligence Agency Poland is in Central Europe, sorry to disappoint you...

cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/pl.html
OP Vlad123 7 | 204
5 Nov 2012 #204
on your notions and preconception about what Poles think about Russians and Ukrainians. No matter what we will write to you

I didn`t write that all Poles dislike Russians and Ukrainians but it would be fool to deny that plenty of them do.Even some people on this thread recognized it.And only reason for some collective prejudice that I see, is foremost believe in genetical inferiority of Eastern Slavs and their genetical similarity in those negative traits to each outher.What yet reason for collective prejudice could exist yet? Do you want to say that some people seriously believe that majority of Ukrainians are educated from the cradle as ultranationalists and Polish-haters? Regardles the fact that 60% of Ukrainians do not speak Ukrainian in everyday life and obviously have no concern about Poles? Obviously not. Then only posibility for colletive prejudice is something genetical.From this follows increased interest to anything bad that Ukrainians may ever do.Which is not proportional to anything bad that more Western nations did.Sorry, but to deny it is just meaningless.

What I take for granted is that they killed many Poles including my family members.Please stop downplay that event or dening that it happened. It's downright offensive.

I`m very sorry about you relatives, but doesn`t is seem strange to you that on this thread already many people readily claimed that UPA soldiers killed their relatives.And one girl said the horses returned back home from forest with sliced body.I suggest that UPA soldiers sliced it with a swords and after tighted pieces to the horses. Another girl said some sope opera with Pole who commited suicide by intentionally runing into Ukrainians. Is there any realistic story? What was a percent of Poles who`s relatives suffered from UPA soldiers and probability for them appear on this thread simultaneously? And especially if we take in account that 70 years passed since then, memories smoothed and not everyone whoud want to describe such things? And I did NOT deny anything, I just asked questions. For some of them I still have no answer.
TheOther 6 | 3,692
5 Nov 2012 #205
According to the Central Intelligence Agency Poland is in Central Europe

Doesn't prove anything. According to the United Nations geoscheme it's Eastern Europe:

en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=File:Europe_subregion_map_UN_geoschme.svg&page=1

There you have it...
Wulkan - | 3,243
5 Nov 2012 #206
According to the United Nations geoscheme it's Eastern

and now prove that UN > CIA
TheOther 6 | 3,692
5 Nov 2012 #207
Nice try. Now you prove that the CIA can be more trusted than the UN... ;)

To be honest: I couldn't care less whether Poland is Central or Eastern Europe. Every time this topic comes up I wonder why it is so important for some Poles that they "officially" belong to the west. Inferiority complex, or what? The perception in Western Europe that Poland is part of the East will not change as long as people are alive who can remember the Wall. That's a relic of the Cold War era, I'm afraid.
boletus 30 | 1,366
5 Nov 2012 #208
To be honest: I couldn't care less whether Poland is Central or Eastern Europe.

Same here.
Des Essientes 7 | 1,291
5 Nov 2012 #209
Indeed, the fact that some people take offense at hearing Poland placed in Eastern-Europe is really sad. They have bought into a stupid Orientalist stigma.


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