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Are Poles happy with the current Polish borders?


delphiandomine 88 | 18,455
14 Nov 2010 #61
Yes i have been to Lwów and yes it looks like a dump, there's dirt roads as close as half a kilometer from the centre, the buildings are falling apart, there's no such thing as street lights apart from the centre.

Plenty of street lights around, even in the mean streets not far from the train station.

Dirt roads? I know exactly what roads you're talking about - and they've been paved with some sort of nice paving recently.

Buildings are falling apart? There's a huge amount of renovation at the minute in L'viv. The area around the Mickiewicz statue is undergoing what can only be called "huge" renovation.

L'viv looks no worse than £ódź.
guesswho 4 | 1,289
14 Nov 2010 #62
Apart from all political ramifications, Lower Silesia was a moonscaped desert when Poles took it over, we rebuilt it into one of the best developed polish regions.

Of course, it was totally destroyed by the end of the WW2. That's why I'm saying, you guys should go back to your borders before the war.
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
14 Nov 2010 #63
Dirt roads? I know exactly what roads you're talking about - and they've been paved with some sort of nice paving recently.

You mean a week ago? Because they're still very much there since they tore out the cobblestones to lay pipes and never put them back.

Plenty of street lights around, even in the mean streets not far from the train station.

Only in the immidiate centre.
zik.com.ua/pl/news/2008/11/11/157581

Check out these sexy postcard quality pictures from Lwów:) There's lots and lots more too.

Buildings are falling apart? There's a huge amount of renovation at the minute in L'viv. The area around the Mickiewicz statue is undergoing what can only be called "huge" renovation.

Wrocław which has a larger annual budget than Kiev andLwów combined managed to renovate 100 german buildings for 170 milions zlotych, Lwów renovations consume 23 milion dollars (something like 50 milion zlotych) so no its not huge, its small and inadequate.

L'viv looks no worse than £ódź.

Lwów:

£ódż:

You were saying?

Of course, it was totally destroyed by the end of the WW2. That's why I'm saying, you guys should go back to your borders before the war.

So you're saying we should give Lower Silesia to the Germans after we spent 65 years rebuilding it, often from scratch?

No go mate.
pawian 178 | 15,909
14 Nov 2010 #64
Poland lost beautiful cities like Lwów, Wilno or Stanisławów but gained on the other hand highly industrialized lands with also beautiful cities (Wrocław, Gdańsk, maybe Szczecin). I think the western lands are strategically much more important and I'd not like to have our former eastern lands instead of current ones. Plus Poland is now ethnically homogoneus

I agree with most of it.

I don`t agree that Szczecin is a beautiful city.
rychlik 41 | 373
14 Nov 2010 #65
because you kicked all the Germans out. Homogenous is not good since it causes inbred characteristics such as stupidity among other things, it is better to have a variety of genes. Look at the USA.

But Americans are the dumbest people in the world.
Nathan 18 | 1,363
14 Nov 2010 #66
My heart is in it but i've been to both cities and they're positive sh*tholes

If your heart was even remotedly in it, you wouldn't call them this way. If you can help out to restore the places, do it and not swear around. It is being renovated gradually on whatever costs are gathered. Unfortunately, there are no huge amounts of money like ones poured into Poland by EU, although I don't deny healthy state of Polish economy either. Usually, first to be restored are places that can bring back money - this is sad, but this is reality. Check out hotel "Leopolis" in the heart of L'viv, for example, which gives some considerable income to the city's budget as compared to what is now bookstore and museum you showed in the photo. It is beautiful, clean, restaurated and more than welcoming:

I wished it was the other way around and cultural heritage put before the entertainment, but money rule the world. Ukraine expects to get more tourists during and after Euro 2012 to support the city budget for renovations which no matter what you say are under way; langsam aber sicher :)

Since you claim about Polish enormous care of the city and its glory during Polish interbellum occupation, I found a few photos of that period:

- notice Polish words like "Gotowe Ubranie" (Ready dress) or "Budowłi.." (something connected with construction). Look carefully at the road, walls of the buildings, roofing, doors..

- what about these historical monuments? Was it the glory and care which you took of Ukrainian city? Not talking about the street and the state of the buildings themselves, did the freaking scary and out of place Polish letters had to be cemented to the wall of the educational institution and old historical monument? Love and care of the past..;)

- well...Poland brought "civilization" to the wild Ukies, as you mentioned on multiple occasions ;))))))
convex 20 | 3,978
14 Nov 2010 #67
But Americans are the dumbest people in the world.

That explains all the Nobel laureates and why so many people from around the world are going to US universities. I suppose it also explains the raft of innovation coming out of the US.

Sure there's a healthy layer of stupid (mostly homogeneous groups btw) , but floating on top of that is the best that mixed genes have to offer.

Polish borders are alright. Afterall, the land is secondary right? It's the spirit that counts (or so I keep getting told).
guesswho 4 | 1,289
14 Nov 2010 #68
So you're saying we should give Lower Silesia to the Germans after we spent 65 years rebuilding it, often from scratch?

well, as long as you get "your" land back in the east, why not? Poland would be much bigger than now and no one would have to bit*h about what he lost.

That explains all the Nobel laureates and why so many people from around the world are going to US universities. I suppose it also explains the raft of innovation coming out of the US.

wow convex. Thank you so much (and I almost gave up on you)
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
14 Nov 2010 #69
well, as long as you get "your" land back in the east, why not? Poland would be much bigger than now and no one would have to bit*h about what he lost.

Because its current owners - Ukraine and Belarus have turned it into such a mess that it would take a generation before we would be able to restore it while our current territories saw significant investment on our part, an investment we'd have to abandon in exchange for nothing.
convex 20 | 3,978
14 Nov 2010 #70
wow convex. Thank you so much (and I almost gave up on you)

I'm not a cheerleader, just a realist.

Because its current owners - Ukraine and Belarus have turned it into such a mess that it would take a generation before we would be able to restore it while our current territories saw significant investment on our part, an investment we'd have to abandon in exchange for nothing.

Not worth it... solidify what you have now.
guesswho 4 | 1,289
14 Nov 2010 #71
Ukraine and Belarus have turned it into such a mess that it would take a generation before we would be able to restore it

but what about your feelings to "your" land? Try imagine, after so many years, you'll be getting back what you always considered yours.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,455
14 Nov 2010 #72
But Americans are the dumbest people in the world.

Really? That's why most of the top universities in the world are in America? That's why American companies mostly rule the world? That's why Wall Street is so massively important?
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
14 Nov 2010 #73
but what about your feelings to "your" land? Try imagine, after so many years, you'll be getting back what you always considered yours.

I love Lwów, much of my family hails from Lwów but people who actually lived there are mostly dead at least 20 years by now, i'm the second generation born in Wrocław, more than 90% of Poles are not willing to abandon lives and wealth we built for ourselves here in favor of poverty in the east.

Lwów is a nice sentiment but to give away a city like Wrocław which we rebuilt into a wealthy place in exchange for a poverty stricken dilapidated craphole? No thanks.

Not worth it... solidify what you have now.

I'm pretty sure Poland is one of the most solidified countries in the world, what with 99% of population being white catholic ethnic Poles.

If your heart was even remotedly in it, you wouldn't call them this way. If you can help out to restore the places,

Nathan Poland is helping, my city of Wrocław to be specific gave Lwów gave Lwów 40 milions złotych, thats just one example, only a fraction of that money goes into restoration, most is pocketed by your corrupt goverment.

Than there's also the problem that 90% of historical heritage in Ukraine is stuff built or commissioned by Poles and Ukraine is unwilling to acknowledge Poles created most of ukrainian cultural and architectural heritage.
guesswho 4 | 1,289
14 Nov 2010 #74
I'm not a cheerleader

hey, you might just make a great cheerleader :-) I'd like to see it.

a realist.

You're absolutely right here. If rychlik thought about it just for a minute before he made his comment, he would know that we've achieved more in just a little bit over 200 years than most of other countries, in some cases, in more than 1000 years. He should be also aware of it that that a country itself doesn't achieve anything but its people so obviously something ain't adding up here with us being "dumb" but one thing definitely does add up and that is, that a person who does make thoughtless comments like rychlik should quickly revise his opinion about us because as it is, he made himself look stupid.
Ironside 50 | 11,260
14 Nov 2010 #75
but what about your feelings to "your" land? Try imagine, after so many years, you'll be getting back what you always considered yours.

Simple, Poland should keep what she got and regain her eastern lands, with exception of Wilno.
What is to you anyway?

Than

What-more its not their and never was, they just happened to live there while Soviet Union collapsed!
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
14 Nov 2010 #76
What-more its not their and never was, they just happened to live there while Soviet Union collapsed!

While you've got a point there booting people is not a solution i'm willing to accept, not to mention we do not have 2 milion+ settlers needed to replace these people and they wont assimilate.

Even if we could somehow regain these lands the only viable solutions are killing everyone or expelling everyone and since when did we as a nation turn into russians or germans?
guesswho 4 | 1,289
14 Nov 2010 #77
What is to you anyway?

I believe it would solve many problems and healed many wounds too if the borders would go back to what it used to be.
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
14 Nov 2010 #78
Like what? I would never accept Wroclaw becoming german again and i'm a voice of milions of Poles as far as this subject is concerned, we're a divided people untill you touch a certain spot, you'd be amazed how united we can be about stuff like that.

Ukrainians will never accept us as their masters unless we go in guns blazing and then they'll submit but hate us even more so what wounds exactly would that kind of revisionism heal?
guesswho 4 | 1,289
15 Nov 2010 #79
Well, I'm only reacting to the topic. I hear this and that here so I thought that going back to what it used to be, maybe would solve the problem.

If you guys are not wanting to give anything then you also can't expect to get anything either.
Ironside 50 | 11,260
15 Nov 2010 #80
Even if we could somehow regain these lands the only viable solutions are killing everyone or expelling everyone and since when did we as a nation turn into russians or germans?

First of all is next to impossible to predict the future, nevertheless there should be lay down some plans and aims set, that should be done by a ruling class, but both of us are aware what is state of polish so called ruling class!

What I'm doing here, just expressing my opinion but so far everybody seems to want discus this issue in general, not going into the details.

I don't believe that we can regain our land anytime soon, we are a part of EU,which intend to eradicate all social, cultural and local differences, an independent society and close knitted neighborhood are seen as a dangerous and first to go, the same goes for RCC.

In that situation, polish course of action is simple, use EU to bring Ukraine into EU, Europe goes bankrupt and split, we keep what ours and volie!

Simultaneously, inside integration and grow, need for that a real ruling class!
Killing is out of the question, and expelling could be a very complex, years consuming and not as drastic action as you all seem thinks, its only matter of right plan and organization.

Also I believe that many will assimilate and some may stay, homogeneous country is not my vision !
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
15 Nov 2010 #81
If you guys are not wanting to give anything then you also can't expect to get anything either.

Newsflash, a crushing majority of Poles does not want any land from anyone, there's no official or unoficial drive for any kind of border revision.

Lwów and Grodno were our cities and a middle finger to any bugger who claims otherwise but they're ours no longer and thats it really, those of us who were forced to move died and their kids born here consider these regions their home.

In that situation, polish course of action is simple, use EU to bring Ukraine into EU, Europe goes bankrupt and split, we keep what ours and volie!

And what when Ukrainians say "no" and they will say no.
Ironside 50 | 11,260
15 Nov 2010 #82
If you guys are not wanting to give anything then you also can't expect to get anything either.

Is that your new philosophy?
We don't expect that someone will hand us anything on the sliver plater!

I-S his hammer wasn't big -old Norse
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
15 Nov 2010 #83
Killing is out of the question, and expelling could be a very complex, years consuming and not as drastic action as you all seem thinks, its only matter of right plan and organization.

Bollocks, booting people out because 0.01% of our population says so? You do know your opinion represents a few thousand extreme right fringe activists and thats it?

lish course of action is simple, use EU to bring Ukraine into EU, Europe goes bankrupt and split, we keep what ours and volie!
Simultaneously, inside integration and grow, need for that a real ruling class!

So essentially the same that Germany is trying to do to Poland? And you see nothing wrong with it?
Ironside 50 | 11,260
15 Nov 2010 #84
And what when Ukrainians say "no" and they will say no.

we need to be flexible, and regain our strength, kiss EU good bye, and then act, maybe with Russian cooperation !
For now, we should make sure that Russia cannot do anything with Ukraine without our say !
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
15 Nov 2010 #85
we need to be flexible, and regain our strength

And breaking up Ukraine helps us regain our strength how?

kiss EU good bye,

And face economic ostracism that destroys our country?

and then act, maybe with Russian cooperation !

We both know Russia does not need independent Poland, it does not want independent Poland, any cooperation in dismantling Ukraine would ultimately cost us our sovereignty.

For now, we should make sure that Russia cannot do anything with Ukraine without our say !

But it can and does.
Ironside 50 | 11,260
15 Nov 2010 #86
You do know your opinion represents a few thousand extreme right fringe activists and thats it?

I'm well aware of that, what the fact says about majority - imprinted inferiority complex, post -colonial trauma and so on ....
Public opinion can be swayed either way - don't you know it ?Mr reporter !

So essentially the same that Germany is trying to do to Poland? And you see nothing wrong with it?

the plan is good, Germans have better tools, economy, ruling class, we are at disadvantage.
Talking morals or reality here ? You should read the last Mohican - the real hero and noble savage! Where is his nation ? Where indeed ?
guesswho 4 | 1,289
15 Nov 2010 #87
Newsflash, a crushing majority of Poles does not want any land from anyone, there's no official or unoficial drive for any kind of border revision.

OK, then I guess most of the threads here (including this one) can be closed now and we can move on to another topic.
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
15 Nov 2010 #88
I'm well aware of that, what the fact says about majority - imprinted inferiority complex, post -colonial trauma and so on ....
Public opinion can be swayed either way - don't you know it ?Mr reporter !

To a degree yes but i doubt to a degree you'd like them to be swayed.

Talking morals or reality here ?

Both, we need friendly stable Ukraine more than we need Lwów, if it was otherwise i might take a look at your side of the lawn.
Ironside 50 | 11,260
15 Nov 2010 #89
And breaking up Ukraine helps us regain our strength how?

One step at the time - we are not doing anting to Ukraine, except to help them enter EU, if not to a keep greedy Russian hand away !

And face economic ostracism that destroys our country?

when we are ready, not now ! where is a will there is a way !

We both know Russia does not need independent Poland, it does not want independent Poland, any cooperation in dismantling Ukraine would ultimately cost us our sovereignty.

Because they have a choice, if option of dependent Poland will be gone, there hopefully will be time to teach Russia to play with independent Poland!

Internal affairs is a key !

But it can and does.

What does it tell you about PO and Poland government ?
Russia can, because Germany and USA let them, its not their interest, its ours, real polish government would work on this !

Both, we need friendly stable Ukraine more than we need Lwów,

I don't believe that Ukraine will become stable prosperous and friendly state for Poland !If anything they will look for support to Germany or Russia or both !

If she do, we can always revise the plan :)

To a degree yes but i doubt to a degree you'd like them to be swayed.

Short term thinking, you can sway them a long way, given time, tools and real achievements.
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
15 Nov 2010 #90
Iron your musings belong to political fiction rather than reality.


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