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Have Poles blood on their hands? :)


Grzegorz_ 51 | 6,163
29 Dec 2009 #91
But to suggest, based on a situation in pre-WW1 Prussia, that Jews in central and eastern poland really didn't lose legitimate property in the holocaust is a ridiculous argument. I wouldn't have expected a comment like that from you.

Fascinating. How did they lose legitimate property "in the holocaust" ?

But after reading what he wrote, what's the most horrible thing is not that people moved into his house (let's assume they thought the owners were dead), but that jews returning to their town were murdered by their former neighbors. And it's known that this happened in quite a few places.

Oy ! Not only damn bastards were robbing poor, innocent and always victimized Jews, damn nazis were also killing them ! Obviously add to that "many", "often" etc. Holocaust industry at its finest.

this is what human beings are capable of when they find themselves in the wrong place at the wrong time.

It would also have helped a bit If the chosen hadn't massively collaborated with NKVD. And maybe If they have trained some matrial arts... so maybe 1600 ugly antisemites wouldn't have been able to murder 1600 always innocent chosens without any loses on the ugly antisemtic side. Oy !
Ironside 49 | 10,661
29 Dec 2009 #92
Sigh. No, I don't want to get into THIS kind of argument

What kind of argument is "this"?

I'm absolutely certain that Jedwabne and Kielce did happen

If by above you mean that in those places some number of people were killed, murdered and most of them were of Jewish origin -

nothing you say can convince me otherwise.

-I have no intension to convince you otherwise.

But if you mean something else than I would call it prejudice or foolhardy prejudice.
vetala - | 382
29 Dec 2009 #93
What I mean is that a big number of defenceless women and children were killed by people of Polish ethnicity solely because of their nationality. We could argue about the circumstances but the fact still stands.

And by THIS kind of argument I meant the kind of argument that lasts three pages with repeated use of statements which were used in other three-pages-long argument from another thread.
Barney 15 | 1,472
29 Dec 2009 #94
It would also have helped a bit If the chosen hadn't massively collaborated with NKVD.

Its always safe to use the "what about" argument, ignoring anything you may be uncomfortable with.
Ironside 49 | 10,661
29 Dec 2009 #95
What I mean is that a big number of defenceless women and children were killed by people of Polish ethnicity solely because of their nationality

in that case I would said (if you are genuine) that you are being mislead.
Anyway why do you persist in this folly is not clear to me.
Prejudices or temptation of being more holy then the Pope?
wrong cause then:)
Grzegorz_ 51 | 6,163
29 Dec 2009 #96
What I mean is that a big number of defenceless women and children were killed by people of Polish ethnicity solely because of their nationality. We could argue about the circumstances but the fact still stands.

Fascinating. There are basically two (If there were more, we would be reminded about them again and agian, don't worry about that) such cases: Jedwabne - the real wunderwaffe of "Poles are antisemties" crowd and Kielce - a smaller one but no less exploited. Jedwabne - there are completely no hard evidences of what happened there, I don't believe that It was completelly made up but the "official" version is so illogicial, It is offending for human intellect that It was commonly accepted to be true. Kielce - we now when and who was killed but still It is wierd, expecially that local authorities were involved and later the commie government was blaming anti-Soviet circles... The rest is just "many Poles were antisemitic", "many Poles participated in the Holocaust", "many Jews were murdered by their Polish neighours" stuff, which is as valid as "many Poles are being mudered in racially motivated attacks in the UK".
vetala - | 382
29 Dec 2009 #97
Ironside
And I think you just don't understand my point. Read some of my earlier posts and you'll see that I'm always very much against applying colective guilt to my own nation. I just think that the rare, but definitely true cases of wrongdoings and shameful incidents need to be acknowledged.

Grzegorz
I agree completely. So what's the problem?
Barney 15 | 1,472
29 Dec 2009 #98
I don't believe that It was completelly made up but the "official" version is so illogicial, It is offending for human intellect that It was commonly accepted to be true.

Kielce - we now when and who was killed but still It is wierd, expecially that local authorities were involved and later the commie government was blaming anti-Soviet circles...

Two very bad things (at least) happened only an idiot would say that all Polish are anti-semitic jew haters.
The Nazi holocaust happened to a large extent in Poland that is not the fault of Poland and I can understand why Polish people are defensive about it.

The article I posted was trying to get away from the moronic view of Poles as Jew hating knuckle draggers.
Ironside 49 | 10,661
29 Dec 2009 #99
I just think that the rare, but definitely true cases of wrongdoings and shameful incidents need to be acknowledged.

Indeed, but we shouldn't be coned to acknowledge incidents when Polish population were only bystanders not perpetrators as in Jedwabne's case.

Read some of my earlier posts

I will but not today:)

The article I posted was trying to get away from the moronic view of Poles as Jew hating knuckle draggers.

Indeed, funny that it was published in the Guardian,
vetala - | 382
30 Dec 2009 #100
In Jedwabne's case a bunch of moronic Poles were definitely perpetraitors. The rest of the town was simply too scared of the Germans' reaction to stop the slaughter. But you can't call them ALL just bystanders.
Mr Grunwald 27 | 1,816
30 Dec 2009 #101
vetala
For their behavior and co-abolartion with the Germans I wouldn't call them Poles anymore, just some un-normal individual who happens to speak Polish.

IF it really happened.

Although most people think that a humans national feeling has to do with the language it speaks then im English!

*spits on all moronic creatures who are able to do something like that*
ob1 1 | 30
30 Dec 2009 #102
Let's make a distinction between state actions and individual actions. How can a country be held responsible for its actions when it was occupied is beyond me. Any justice system will not hold someone responsible when a gun is held to his head. How can a country be blamed for the actions of its individuals? How can an individual be blamed for the actions of the country? There are lines of responsibility here that must be drawn.
ender 5 | 398
30 Dec 2009 #103
I see this thing is keep coming so:
lets show some true

And while the Nazis killed millions of Jews, Poles killed thousands - most famously, as Gross related in "Neighbors" (2001), a book that caused an uproar in Poland, 1,600 of them in the town of Jebwabne in July 1941 - crimes little noted at the time nor since remembered in Polish history books.

'Post World War II Poland and Antisemitism' ByDavid Margolick
polandinjustice.com

and newest version from viki

The Jedwabne pogrom (pronounced [jɛdˈvabnɛ]) was a massacre of at least 300 Polish Jews in German occupied Poland in July 1941

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jedwabne_pogrom

for poles and polish speaking before you judge plz read IPN report

ipn.gov.pl/ftp/pdf/jedwabne_postanowienie.pdf

it's only 203 pages
regards
Trevek 26 | 1,702
30 Dec 2009 #104
Well...I'm sure some Prussians lived also in Van's (maybe not for so long though).

Why build a house when you can go to germany and steal a German van ;-)
1jola 14 | 1,879
30 Dec 2009 #105
'Post World War II Poland and Antisemitism' ByDavid Margolick

Another NKVD Jew working for Stalin's right-hand man in People's Poland -Jakub Berman. The murders committed by these Jews against Poles far outnumber the several hundred Jews who were killed in the after war chaos.
caprice49 4 | 224
30 Dec 2009 #106
even if Jedwabne is true I

Well unfortunately it is. But it should be taken into context by remembering how some Jews behaved towards the Poles. No one is blameless, and that includes the Jews! Bierut is a prime example and for the doubters the Israeli newspapers listed the Jewish perpetrators as did Solzenicyn.
MareGaea 29 | 2,752
30 Dec 2009 #107
Have you actually read this nonsense?

Hm, so every source that says that some Poles might be on the wrong side of the track is nonsense? And every source that says they were all on the right side of the track is a good and credible source? You're showing some true colours, there.

The murders committed by these Jews against Poles far outnumber the several hundred Jews who were killed in the after war chaos.

So we are back to square one again? We are thinking in groups and clubs again and not in individuals? Poles kill Jews, Jews kill Poles and the Germans and Russians killed them all. Soit. It's like that. Get over it, it's past. Live today.

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)
Trevek 26 | 1,702
30 Dec 2009 #108
According to the blog 'Poles loaded Jews onto 'gas trucks'...I thought it was 'gas ovens'...Which is it?...Maybe Poles never loaded anybody onto anything...

I've just read Laurence Rees's book on Auschwitz and the Holocaust. One of the things which keeps cropping up is how Jewish prisoners were made/expected to assist with the 'processing' of prisoners for transportation, selection and eventual murder. Some of the (Jewish) people he interviewed worked with the Sonderkommando or cut the hair of prisoners about to be gassed. They were often asked by the prisoners themselves, "How can you do this... how can you help them?" They admit that all that drove them was a desire to survive.

Likewise, ghetto police (Jewish) or such people as Rumkowski, the 'king' of the £odż ghetto saying "Give me your children!".

Interesting how when gentiles do such things it is because they are 'anti-semitic' but when Jews do it they are trying to survive.

Another point which Rees brings up, through interviews, is the handling and 'theft' of the property of gassed prisoners, not only by the Nazis but by the camp inmates themselves (Jewish and gentile). Once more, the case is made that it was about survival. And who can blame them... but this is a matter of human nature, not a matter of whether or not someone is Jewish, gentile or whatever.

It reminds me of a scene in the film "Defiance", where a peasant (Polish, I believe) is shot because he allegedly allowed his cart to be used to transport Jews. Can you imagine the ideal scene of what he should have done...?

Nazi officer: "We need your cart to transport Jews to Sobibor to be gassed!"

Poor Polish Peasant: "nay, foul nazi, begone, I will not aid thee in thy anti-semitic ways!"

Nazi: "Oh, OK, we'll ask someone else, we respect you views..." (exit nazi).


Errrm, somehow I don't think the scene would have worked too well.
yehudi 1 | 433
30 Dec 2009 #109
How did they lose legitimate property "in the holocaust" ?

Jews were shipped out of towns to be killed and their property was taken over by Polish squatters. The few survivors who came back to claim it after the war were driven away. Which is the part you don't understand?

How can a country be held responsible for its actions when it was occupied is beyond me.

Nobody says the government of Poland is responsible for Jedwabne. What people say is that Poles massacred Jews, because that apparently is what happened there. Whether that means Poles are anti-semites is for you Poles to discuss among yourselves. I don't care.

Obviously add to that "many", "often" etc. Holocaust industry at its finest.

No. I use words like "often" when I don't have statistics. This isn't a court of law, so I don't don't need to bring numbers. My point is still valid, that the shocking thing is NOT the squatters in former Jewish property but the murders. I'm not talking about pogroms, which may have been isolated incidents, but murders of individual Jewish returnees. How many murders were there? Enough to be a phenomenon and not a freak incident.
ender 5 | 398
30 Dec 2009 #110
1jola
I did.

After the war ended, 14 Jewish surivors wandered back into the next village to try to reassemble what was left of their shattered lives. The Poles came after them in the middle of the night and murdered them all. My father, who had lived over the Holocaust sleeping in barns and running from Nazis, Poles, and wild dogs, was forced to flee - again.

My father in the Polish militia after the war

plus some other flowers

Nazis, Poles, and wild dogs
he he he
when I read such crap I become nazi and I'm dreaming about big ovens
vetala - | 382
30 Dec 2009 #111
The murders committed by these Jews against Poles far outnumber the several hundred Jews who were killed in the after war chaos.

Ridiculous.
But the author of this blog actually BRAGGING about his communist daddy is just as riddiculous.

Hm, so every source that says that some Poles might be on the wrong side of the track is nonsense? And every source that says they were all on the right side of the track is a good and credible source?

Obviously not. But have YOU actually read this nonsense? The author of that blog is a person who dedicates all of his free time to find as much sh*t on Poles as he can, no matter if it's true or not, just to show 'those nasty Poles' in a bad light. He's the exactly same kind of person as our dear forum antisemites.

Nazi officer: "We need your cart to transport Jews to Sobibor to be gassed!"Poor Polish Peasant: "nay, foul nazi, begone, I will not aid thee in thy anti-semitic ways!"Nazi: "Oh, OK, we'll ask someone else, we respect you views..." (exit nazi).

Dude, it's a Holywood production. There's no place for actual moral complexity there.

How many murders were there?

327 confirmed, 1000/2000 estimated. Out of 180,000–240,000 Jews who survived. And it was 2/3% of total victims of post-war violence. I understand that Jews felt threatened but feeling threatened is a completely different thing from actually being in a mortal danger.

Enough to be a phenomenon and not a freak incident.

Szmalcowniks are described as a Polish phenomenon even though Anne Frank didn't survive a war because she was betrayed by a Dutchman. Also post-war violence is called a Polish phenomenon, not a Romanian, Slovak or Ukrainian phenomenon although pogroms and killings of Jewish returnees happened plenty of times over there too. And yet, nobody cares, because Poland is treated like some sort of symbol of antisemitism.
1jola 14 | 1,879
30 Dec 2009 #112
Ridiculous.

You are most likely not familiar with 1944-1956 period of Polish history and the prominence of Jews in the state terror apparatus. You should do something about this.
yehudi 1 | 433
30 Dec 2009 #113
Szmalcowniks are described as a Polish phenomenon even though Annne frank didn't survive a war because she was betrayed by a Dutchman, etc.

It's discussed as a polish phenomenon here because this is a Polish forum. Also because everything that happened in the holocaust is magnified in Poland since that's where the most Jews lived and died. There's no question that the other nations you mentioned were notorious in betraying Jews to the Nazis and that French and Dutch participated in rounding up their Jews and that Ukrainians and Baltics took part in the slaughter. But this discussion is about Poland. If I would be on a Lithuanian forum I'd give them hell, but then what's more boring than a Lithuanian forum.
king polkakamon - | 544
30 Dec 2009 #114
As far as I have looked I never saw a Pole with blood on his hands.
vetala - | 382
30 Dec 2009 #115
1jola
They were acting with full approval of their Polish commie collegues and then they were kicked out. I hate them, but I'm far from appying collective guilt.

yehudi
Fair point.
1jola 14 | 1,879
30 Dec 2009 #116
They were acting with full approval of their Polish collegues

And somehow makes it OK to murder soldiers who fought for independent Poland?

and then they were kicked out

How sweet.

I hate them, but I'm far from appying collective guilt.

And you shouldn't. Show me how my post was ridiculous. You will have to compare numbers.
vetala - | 382
30 Dec 2009 #117
1jola
You missed my point. Jewish communists were acting on orders from Poles with the approval of Poles and for as long as Poles allowed them to. So there's nothing to compare, the only thing which their existance proves is that nationality doesn't make anyone a saint or a murderer.
ender 5 | 398
30 Dec 2009 #118
and another

"The Jews own the buildings, and we own the streets."

This expression was said of my family's village in Poland.

Yes was said 'Domy nasze, ulice wasze.' by Jews
little ****** make me lough.

xneumanx.googlepages.com/court-order.jpg - This court order was issued after the war ended, affirming my family's ownership of the property

shortly judge Z. Berkan (Jew?) gave to Bieniek Najman half of destred house. And guess who is Bieniek Najman?

what a sly piece semishit
vetala - | 382
30 Dec 2009 #119
ender
Sorry, could you explain your post to me? I don't understand the context, I'm afraid. What house?
MareGaea 29 | 2,752
30 Dec 2009 #120
But have YOU actually read this nonsense

No, but that's not relevant to my remark. The remark was aimed at 1jola's tendency to dismiss anything that may conclude that SOME Poles may have done bad things as nonsense while literature that glorifies the Polish, their role and their attitude during WW2 is credible and is presented as proof of how good they were.

No ppl on Earth is completely pure and without faulty behaviour. And on this forum I sometimes get the impression that some ppl want to glorify the Polish ppl as being absolute immaculate when they are obviously not. No ppl is.

>^..^<

M-G (for everybody who wants to jump on this: yes, this goes for the Jews too)


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