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Have Poles blood on their hands? :)


vetala - | 382
6 Aug 2009 #31
If it makes you feel better - Prussia was a paradise compared with the opression in the Russian partition.
TheOther 5 | 3,762
6 Aug 2009 #32
the ban on building of houses

Doesn't prove that Poles in general were not allowed to own the houses they were already living in. Being banned to build a new home is a different story.
vetala - | 382
6 Aug 2009 #33
Not for their children, and their children's children who had to move SOMEWHERE. But yes, I don't want to offend anybody (I have German ancestry and part of my family moved back to Germany during communism, so really, no hard feelings) so let me clarify - the situation was far from desparate, nevertheless it caused a lot of bitterness. Jews were not treated as harshly and such was the birth of the saying about the ownership of streets an houses.
TheOther 5 | 3,762
6 Aug 2009 #34
so really, no hard feelings

Don't worry - we are talking about something that happened over a hundred years ago. It's of historical interest, but that's about it.

I'm of Polish/German descent as well BTW, and I happen to have an original land record/ deed of my great-grandfather at home. He was Polish and bought a piece of land AND a house in the Poznan area in 1910. That's one reason why I kept insisting.
vetala - | 382
6 Aug 2009 #35
Eh, I wouldn't call myself of German descent, the situation was a bit... complicated (the grandmother of my grandmother was a GERMAN from LATVIA, she married a POLE from BELARUS and settled in RUSSIAN Poland. During war my great-grandparents and their siblings had the chance of registering themselves as Germans but they turned it down - they felt Polish. Only they stopped feeling Polish after the first few years of communist rule and decided that they're better off as Germans, aquired German citizenship and moved to West Germany. My grandparents had a looong talk over whether to do the same but in the end decided to stay)
OP espana 17 | 910
6 Aug 2009 #36
so it is true that the poles like to throw a rock and hide their hands?
Poles killed 1,600 Jews in the north-eastern village of Jedwabne in 1941a and all the massacres had previously been blamed on Nazi troops
vetala - | 382
6 Aug 2009 #37
There are documented cases of 769 polish villages massacred by the nazis (I know of at least three massacred as a punishment for hiding Jews - possibly more, I would have to find the page) and identified 1500 places of mass killing of Poles by UPA, there were polish villages massacred by Lithuanians, Belarussians, Soviets and Soviet-allied Jews (though not many). Would you like to discuss it?
Mr Grunwald 27 | 1,816
6 Aug 2009 #38
so it is true that the poles like to throw a rock and hide their hands?
Poles killed 1,600 Jews in the north-eastern village of Jedwabne in 1941a and all the massacres had previously been blamed on Nazi troops

Well even if Jedwabne is true I hardly accept it as any Ak operation nor Polish people doing or anything. I would more say that it was Jedwabne locals who did it, right? If it was like 10k more stories in different places then that's a different sotry but their not?
OP espana 17 | 910
6 Aug 2009 #39
Well even if Jedwabne is true I hardly accept

don bullshi* me :) For decades, Polish communist authorities covered up the role of Poles in the Jedwabne massacre, blaming Nazi killing squads for the murders.
polishcanuck 7 | 462
6 Aug 2009 #40
Here we go again...

so it is true that the poles like to throw a rock and hide their hands?
Poles killed 1,600 Jews in the north-eastern village of Jedwabne in 1941a and all the massacres had previously been blamed on Nazi troops

I think poland (kwasiewski) has already accepted responsibility and apologised for this crime.

Also, keep in mind that jews sided with the russians in 1919-21 and helped the ruskies identify scores of polish intelligensia so they could put a bullet in the back of their heads! What goes around comes around. I don't condone this, but this is the way the cookie crumbles.

poles like to think that they fight against the Germans but some poles enjoy doing barbecues.

Jews also liked doing BBQs! Unfortunately there were some participants in the holocaust in all parts of german occupied europe, even jews themselves!

Here is a book Pole-bashers should read. It's written by a Jew who talks about how the Jews re-started the concentration camps after poland's 'liberation' by the russians.

f

Have Poles blood on their hands? :)

I'm pretty sure every nation has blood at its hands, including your beloved Espana.
pawian 175 | 13,516
7 Aug 2009 #41
But Prussia was not some black dictatorship and people COULD slug it out at a court instead of just being killed or kidnapped into a labor camp...they HAD rights!

Hmm....

What about Września case where Polish kids were beaten by sadistic German teachers???? It was an outrageous act of brutal violence.

Września is known in Poland for a school strike by Polish children in May 1901 in response to the intensification of Germanization (i.e. prohibition of the Polish language at school). The Polish language had long been tolerated in the schools, so the introduction of German as mandatory language led to protests. The controversy led to drawn-out protests between parents and authorities. For refusing to speak German, Polish children were severely beaten by Prussian teachers for several hours. Parents who tried to break into the school and protect their children from Prussian teachers were punished later by a Prussian court [...]

Bratwurst Boy 9 | 10,436
7 Aug 2009 #42
Polish kids were beaten by sadistic German teachers????

Prussia tried to implement german as main lingua between all the minorities now living between prussian/german borders.
Like english in the US.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanisation#In_Prussia

Do you know that german children were beaten by their prussian teachers too?
The "Prügelstrafe" was a common element in german school till even after the war.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_Germany#Life_in_a_German_school

Corporal punishment was banned in West Germany in 1973 and at least officially in East Germany in 1949.

Mean? Surely! "Sadistic"? Hardly..

Corporal punishment of school students for misbehaviour involves striking the student on the buttocks or the palm of the hand in a premeditated ceremony with an implement specially kept for the purpose such as a paddle, or with the open hand.

outrageous act of brutal violence

Oh please!

Pawian, tell me...is the long tolerance of the polish language by Prussia also mentioned in Poland or only the tries by the gov to give the country a main language?

Tolerates Poland another school language than polish?

Let's see how "nice" Poland handled a similiar situation compared to "brutal" Germany:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polonization#Second_Polish_Republic

Dmowski and Grabski saw the solution of the "minorities problem" in imposing "Polish values" (Polish language and the Catholic Church) on the minorities to achieve "national assimilation",

....
In 1923 and from 1925 to 1926 he was a minister of religion and education. In that time he further pursued ND nationalist policies, especially Polonization.
He was the architect of the 1924 Lex Grabski, which de facto sought to eliminate the Ukrainian language from Polish schools...

Some officials denied the existence of the Ukrainian and Belarusian nations altogether...

A law issued in 1924 banned usage of any language but Polish in governmental and municipal paperwork.
the area of public education it was postulated that state schools could be only Polish language schools.
[41]

The land reform designed to favour the Poles[55] in mostly Ukrainian populated Volhynia, the agricultural territory where the land question was especially severe,

Wait....forced polish teaching in ukrainian schools???
A "land reform" favouring Poles to the native Ukrainians???

Interesting, isn't it...

..."Poland may be preserved only as a state of Polish people. If it were a state of Poles, Jews, Germans, Rusyns, Belarusians, Lithuanians, Russians, it would lose its independence again"

..."The foreign element will have to see if it will not be better off elsewhere. Polish land for the Poles!"

"[Poland's aim should be] "the transformation of the Commonwealth into Polish ethnic territory" [6]

Now compare that to Prussia...
During all the partitions around 500,000 Poles came to work and to live either in Prussia or in the Ruhr. Many stayed for good and assimilated, the rest makes the biggest Polonia in Europe.

On the other hand today barely any Germans live anymore in what is now Poland.

Sometimes a good long look into a mirror would be advisable for some Poles...
Nathan 18 | 1,363
7 Aug 2009 #43
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Ukrainian_minority_in_Poland

The Poles suppressed the Ukrainian educational system, reducing the number of Ukrainian-language schools from 440 to 8. Higher education became unattainable for Ukrainians in Poland. In the middle schools in Volhynia only 344 (14%) Ukrainians were enrolled in comparison to 2599 Poles (1938).

Now many "filozofs" tell me that they brought "culture" and "education" to Ukraine whereas in 17th century there was much more schools in Ukraine than either in countries with such cities as Maskau and Krakau. Two greatest "educators" - Polish and Russians completely destroyed universities and schools that existed for hundreds of years.

Of the 80 Ukrainians who qualified to continue through to tertiary studies, only 3 were accepted in 1938-1939.[12] Ukrainians were openly discriminated against in the education system. In the 1938/9 academic year only 6 Ukrainians were accepted for tertiary education[13]. Eventually, many Ukrainians were forced to seek education in institutions outside the country

Here I am simply speechless.

In 1938-1939 a number of Ukrainian libraries and reading rooms were burned by Polish mobs of misguided patriotic youth who often went unpunished by the Polish police forces[7].

Quite a knowledge-thirsty youth you had back then.

Eventually, 190 Orthodox churches were destroyed and often abandoned [6] and another 150 were transformed into Roman Catholic churches.

As was quoted above Frederik William lll said:" Your religion will be upheld". Not with Polish "Christian" policies.

A large number of Polish colonists were encouraged by the Polish government to resettle in Volhynia. This number was estimated at 300,000 for both Galicia and Volhynia by Ukrainian sources and less than 100,000 by Polish sources [11] Although the majority of the local population was Ukrainian, virtually all government official positions were assigned to Poles

Exactly famous Polish expression in action: "Waszy ulicy, naszy kamianicy" said in regards to Jews, but implemented by Poles towards Ukrainians with the covered double-facedness.

genforum.genealogy.com/ukraine/messages/4892.html

General/Marshall Pilsudski started conducting his worst repressions 9/16 - 11/30/1930, when detachments of Polish soldiers and police went thru Eastern Galician villages and cities, dragging out leading Ukrainian political/independence activists (including women) and wealthier Ukrainian landowners from their homes, and beating many to death...

How did Germans dare to BUY OUT Polish houses? They even PAID for them! Shame on Germans. In Ukraine Polish PAYMENT was in different currency, not in zloty even.

After all that and much more, there are slobbering tears about UPA (Ukrainian Insurgent Army) and their fight for my country's independance.

Sometimes a good long look into a mirror would be advisable for some Poles...

For some? Sometimes? Mirror should be permanently attached to the forehead and removed right before putting into the coffin, because disease is incurable as I noticed on many other forums and only grave will solve the issue.
vetala - | 382
7 Aug 2009 #44
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organization_of_Ukrainian_Nationalists#Background_and_Creation

"In contrast, the OUN accepted violence as a political tool against foreign and domestic enemies of their cause. Most of its activity was directed against Polish politicians and government representatives. Under the command of the Western Ukrainian Territorial Executive (established February 1929), the OUN carried out hundreds of acts of sabotage in Galicia and Volhynia, including a campaign of arson against Polish landowners (which helped provoke the 1930 Pacification), boycotts of state schools and Polish tobacco and liquor monopolies, dozens of expropriation attacks on government institutions to obtain funds for its activities, and some sixty assassinations."

I can't seem to recall Poles doing the same to Prussians, although who knows? The opression of Ukrainians is certainly despicable, but you actively fuelled the hate. Poland back then was a nationalist country, constantly threatened by the Soviet Union with which there was quite a big war for several years. Furthermore there was a a lot of fighting between the government parties as well. The country was on a verge of collapsing and so the problems with Ukrainians occured an the most unfavourable moment. Perhaps a dialog would have helped you more.

And by the way -

After all that and much more, there are slobbering tears about UPA (Ukrainian Insurgent Army) and their fight for my country's independance.

I wonder how the mass murder of Polish population helped you against German occupation? As I recall the Germans ruled in Volhynia even after all poles from there died or run away.
Harry
7 Aug 2009 #45
ALL Poles were only allowed to own the land, NOT the houses. Don't you think it's unfair?

And these days Poles get their own back by not allowing foreigners to even own the land of their choice, let alone build a house on it!

Poland back then was a nationalist country, constantly threatened by the Soviet Union with which there was quite a big war for several years.

I think that the Ukrainians probably remember the Polish-Soviet war, what with them having fought on the same side as Poland and then having been stabbed in the back by their Polish allies.
vetala - | 382
7 Aug 2009 #46
If that was an act of stabbing in the back, then I guess you finally admit that Great Britain stabbed Poland in the back in 1945?
Harry
7 Aug 2009 #47
I guess you finally admit that Great Britain stabbed Poland in the back in 1945?

You show me the part of the treaty obligation which Britain did not keep to the letter and I will most certainly admit that.
frd 7 | 1,399
7 Aug 2009 #48
And these days Poles get their own back by not allowing foreigners to even own the land of their choice, let alone build a house on it!

Can't see blood on anyone's hands because of this, it's irrelevant to the topic. You haven't given any links or sources - therefore it's drivel.

As for all the talk about minorities, Ukrainians lead by OUN-B, commited a genocide on Polish minorities in Wolyn in 1943 just to win any upcoming elections. There's still a lot of hatred in both polish and ukrainian people living near ukrainian-polish border.

BB I really don't understand where do you find the nerve to state your cheeky comments excusing prussian annexation and telling us how it wasn't as bad "because", which German deeds will you start to justify next?
Bratwurst Boy 9 | 10,436
7 Aug 2009 #49
Well...if you would be so kind to read the quotes and links you would see that it isn't only me being "cheeky" but the judgement of history and facts.

It's interesting to pull your polish myths apart one by one.
You are obviously brought up on falsifications, propaganda or at least on a VERY one sided view of polish history (in short: Poles fantastic - Germans beasts/Ukrainians some kind of subhumans/Brits traitors etc.).

It's wrong!
Borrka 37 | 594
7 Aug 2009 #50
Poles fantastic - Germans beasts

Very true when referring to ww2 events.
Nonsense as some generalization.
Harry
7 Aug 2009 #51
it's irrelevant to the topic. You haven't given any links or sources - therefore it's drivel.

I just love the way that Poles whine about not being allowed to build houses in foreign countries a hundred years ago but today won't let foreigners even buy land unless they get a permit (which at least one of the ministries involved often refuses to issue).
Babinich 1 | 455
7 Aug 2009 #52
I think that the Ukrainians probably remember the Polish-Soviet war, what with them having fought on the same side as Poland and then having been stabbed in the back by their Polish allies.

Similiar to the Poles getting screwed when they saddled up with the separatist Ukrainians in an effort liberate both their lands from imperial rule.

How? The Ukrainian nationalists sign a seperate peace with the Central Powers through as part of the Brest-Litovsk treaty.
Harry
7 Aug 2009 #54
Similiar to the Poles getting screwed when they saddled up with the separatist Ukrainians in an effort liberate both their lands from imperial rule.

Care to name the treaty which both sides signed?

The Ukrainian nationalists sign a seperate peace with the Central Powers through as part of the Brest-Litovsk treaty.

Er, Poland was on the same side as the Central Powers.
vetala - | 382
7 Aug 2009 #55
Er, Poland was on the same side as the Central Powers.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Brest-Litovsk

"In Poland, which was not mentioned in the treaty, its signing caused riots and protests, and the final withdrawal of any support for the Central Powers."

I bet someone will now digg up a an earlier betrayal by Poland. I have a strange feeling that if we continue this long enough, we will have to go through the whole millenium. I miss the times when countries were proud of their conquests.
time means 5 | 1,310
7 Aug 2009 #56
Don't beleive me?...Do some research; look it up....I posted the whole story here long ago.

Where does it say i don't believe you? I simply put up a link regarding gas vans/trucks in answer to your post (4)

I can now see you were just being a sarcastic arsehole.
Harry
7 Aug 2009 #57
"In Poland, which was not mentioned in the treaty, its signing caused riots and protests, and the final withdrawal of any support for the Central Powers."

Do you not understand what that says? Babinich is claiming that the Ukrainians betrayed Poland by signing a seperate peace treaty (part of Brest-Litovsk) with the Central Powers and your quote says that the treaty caused the final withdrawal of any support for the Central Powers.

How that means that the Ukrainians were fighting alongside Poland against the Central Powers I have no idea!
adibjaber - | 17
7 Aug 2009 #58
but why fight?
why busy on blood?
donate blood :) Red Cross/Crecent :)
vetala - | 382
7 Aug 2009 #59
Harry - To tell you the truth I have no idea what was the conflict about, I just did a little wiki-fu. You said Poland was supporting the Central Powers and I was refering to that. You made it sound as if Poland was satisfied with the treaty.

adibjaber - can an allergic person donate blood? Or organs for that matter? Because I was hoping I could give my organs after my death, so I won't wake up inside the coffin or something.
adibjaber - | 17
7 Aug 2009 #60
no please no blood of elergy

vetala

you are polishwoman?


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