If Poles were antisemitic, would they ...?

A lot of different groups have contributed to Polish culture over the centuries with the Jews just being one of many. Again one of my favorite sites: commonwealth.pl

Anyway I think modesty is the best policy. Certainly a lot classier. If a museum or art gallery wants to put on events to show the mix of other cultures from other parts of the world or single out those who have lived in Poland then I don't think anyone would mind seeing a few rotating exhibits about Jews from time to time.


Jews have shown over the centuries that they go pretty much wherever they like. If they don't stay it's more for economic reasons than anything else. Any honors regarding Jews need to go to the host countries which have shown tolerance, hospitality, and given them opportunities over generations. Have places like Israel or large Jewish-only neighbors ever returned the compliment? Nowhere near in kind.

One of many but of outstanding importance. Just recall how many famous Polish writers and poets were assimilated Jews. I mentioned them in another thread. polishforums.com/history/poles-owe-jews-60402/


Come on.......

Present-day Poland may actually have more of an honest-to-goodness Jewish presence than many Western European countries! Italians whom I've met claim to have rarely if ever encountered a Jew, that is, a fellow native Italian "paisano" of Jewish background! Furthermore, the few Jews that there are remain so integrated into Italian culture and society, they're not thought of any longer as Jews:-) This is in stark contrast to Poland or Russia, for instance, where Jews are looked upon as a strangely separate entity from gentile Poles. In the former Soviet Union, Jews were a separate nation, practically, with 'Jew' stamped on their passports!

An intriguing dichotomy, Jews in Poland. They're "Jewish", yet "Polish", even though evidence of Jewish culture is rather like fireflies; they flash quickly, but aren't seen except traces of their light are observed only in passing.

Yes, they are a chapter in Poland's history. Maybe in the future some Jews living in Poland will live up to the talents of those that came before them and do their part to make contributions on a comparable scale. But that's for them to do.

In the meantime Poland should look to the present and encourage the very best out of Poland's youth as well as among the newly arrived immigrants from other parts of the EU, Ukraine, Belarus and Vietnam. It was only several years ago that Poland was being hailed in political circles on both sides of the Atlantic as part of the "new Europe."

Poland should never forget its heritage but it shouldn't be hobbled by hyped-up nostalgia for a bygone era either. We don't see monuments to neanderthals now do we? Yet we know they were once here.

Thing is though, Biegański, that Jews were scarcely Neanderthals, but significant contributors to that bygone era of which you and others have previously spoken! A far more precient analogy would have been with Native Americans here in the States and their all but vanished civilization. They too were hardly primitve cave dwellers, but highly advanced members of an ancient society. Albeit perhaps not a "civilization" in the Western sense of the word (after all they had not weaponry as did the white European conquerors), they had nonetheless attained a vaunted degree of accomplishment. The Central Americans too were far more advanced than the North Americans.

This though is going more than a bit off topic.

The point I was debating was the comparison between Poland's Jews and extinct Neanderthals, a parallel I frankly find ludicrous!!

I never said Jews were neanderthals. Every country has an intriguing history of different actors. Some stayed, others left. The point is that it is wrong to focus just on one group from the past and say that is what we are all about today especially when that group has declined or vanished.

People need to know about the past but equally important is to have figures and role models that most people living today can relate to.

Yet marginalizing a national group of such significance as the Jews in pre-War Poland is to do them a tremendous disservice, in my opinion. They were destroyed because of who they were, not what they did. Therefore, to merely take their achievements for one's personal or collective enrichment, without crediting them, that is, paying them the debt of gratitude which they are richly owed, is tantamount to being sort of prostitute who collects money, wealth from clients whom they may in fact despise, yet offers them little to any true thanks.

Hmm, actually, Polish Jews can be role models too. E.g., I would like my kids to have such talent as Brzechwa or Tuwim had who wrote wonderful poems for children, once translated by one of PF members:

polishforums.com/free-translation-42/polish-poetry-translations-46697/

[i]Kitten
by Julian Tuwim

Looks the kitten, oh so sad.
"What, dear kitten, hurts so bad?"
Says the kitten: "bowl of milk.
Was all full, but now is dry,
Lack of milk sure makes me cry."

Sighs the kitten: "purr."
"What's the matter, kitten, sir?"
"I was dreaming of a river,
Riverrun with milk and cream,
Flowing all the way downstream."
...
paczemoj.blogspot.com/2010/09/kitten.html

The Slouch
by Jan Brzechwa

By the TV sits a slouch,
Spends his whole days on the couch.

"Oh, I certainly take exception!
What a dirty misconception!
For who sits by the television?
Who eats breakfast with precision?
Who today was getting going,
Ably watching grasses growing?
And who just now has spilt his tea-
"Oh! You see, you see!"

By the TV sits a slouch,
Spends his whole days on the couch.

"Excuse me, sir! But if you care,
Just this morning? Brushed my hair!
...
blogs.transparent.com/polish/len-by-jan-brzechwa


Come on, let`s exploit this nostalgia till we can. I am pretty sure when I am gone from this world, all nostalgia will vanish with me. :):):)


By vanished you mean Holocaust?

Jews are far from marginalized in Poland or anywhere else for that matter. How much more recognition needs to be given?


They were not destroyed. If the Jews had been destroyed there wouldn't be any of them around today.

Additionally, Poland wasn't decimated and occupied by the Nazis just because there were Jews living on the territory. Hitler and his party had as much spiting hatred for Poles as he did for Jews. Poland didn't suffer partition before that because of the presence of Jews.

Furthermore, Poles who have worked or settled in different countries over the centuries have often faced ridicule and discrimination right up to the present day simply because they are Polish.

Human history is full of accounts of bad behavior including genocide and the vast majority of it has never been directed against Jews alone.


I already said that Jews were part of Poland's history and people should be made aware of this. However, it's one thing to acknowledge their individual or collective contribution to Polish history and quite another to effectively or literally idolize them for it.


Debt of gratitude? They are richly owed?

Are these things done for you where you live because on the heritage you happen to share with others in the past who achieved things in life?

Come off it!


Sounds like the sort of people who lobby hard in North America and Europe on behalf of the "Jewish State of Israel."


That's an private matter what parents want their children to learn about. I think any school curriculum should cover a broad scope of history and historical figures.


It's natural to be attracted to the idealized notions of the past. But I don't think Lithuania, Belarus and Ukraine would go along with another reunification with Poland just to recreate the Pale of Settlement.


No. The Jews didn't vanish from the Holocaust although many died along with Poles and other victims. The numbers of Jews in Poland have obviously declined.

By vanishing I was referring to other peoples who are known, or have been suggested, or were discovered to have had a presence in Poland's shifting borders over millennia but have long since disappeared. In my earlier example I cited Neanderthal man. I could have mentioned the Celts or Prussians as well.

Yes.

PS. Actually, everything what I write about Jews in this thread and others is my private matter.


Sorry, I was talking about talent, not curriculum.


I am not planning to incorporate old Polish lands into my country to recreate Poland from sea to sea. :):):) This thread is only about Poles and Jews. What the heck????


I hope by many you mean almost the whole pre-war Jewish population of Poland, those 3.5 million people, of whom 10% survived.


What Prussian or Celtic influence do Poles remember and cherish today? Yes, there are a few Celtic stone circles in Poland.
Come on...... it is 21 century, Jews made 10% of Polish population only 70 years ago while Prussians left their trace in Polish history with a few dozen names of villages and towns in north-east Poland 700 years ago. Can we compare these two groups at all????

Are you kidding? What about the Kingdom of Prussia until 1870?

Yes, there were survivors and today there are an estimated 14 million Jews in the world. They are free to move to Poland but choose not to. It has nothing to do with the past. Not all Jews in the world can trace their roots back to Poland anyway. Poland can be as foreign to them as Bhutan.

It's just not economically or socially wise for them to start life over from scratch in Poland. Now if they were to be given heavy subsidies, free homes built on stolen land, free education, assistance in finding employment, and cradle to grave care like they get in Israel then you may peak their interest.


The influence is gone because they just died out. No effort was ever made to reconstitute what was known about them. Same will be said one day of the lands and people Poland lost to Lithuania, Ukraine or Belarus after the war. Sure some will point to the land gained from Germany and about expulsions and population transfers but this doesn't discount that the lands and Poles in the east were every bit a part of the Polish population and Polish identity only 70 years ago as well.

But never mind how Poland looked 70 years or 700 years ago. What's important now is how Poland will look in 100 year or 700 years from today.

Poland has a newer generation of homegrown talent and their own take on culture as well as what is being contributed by newer minorities in Poland from other parts of the world. They will shape the future. Jews could play a part if they want to but I see no reason to court them ahead of anyone else. If they don't want to migrate on their own in the first place then they couldn't possibly be interested in being productive members of society.

Even if they did come there is no guarantee they would be interested in maintaining a Jewish heritage so it makes little sense why anyone else should. Alternatively they could become modern day zealots of Judaism on Polish soil and have no interest or intent in fully assimilating. Now who would want that? We often see that played out now in the posts made by certain members of PF.

Don't put words in my mouth. I didn't say that all, or even most Poles hate Jews. My point is that anti-Jewishness is not focused on our religion. It's focused against Jews as a group, religious or not. My comment doesn't refer to people who don't hate Jews, but to those who do. Are you saying that anti-Jewish hatred is not at all existing in Poland, even between the wars? If that's true then Poland is the only country in Europe that's immune to anti-jewishness.

I think your defensiveness against the charge of "anti-semitism" is exaggerated. All it does is bring out nasty comments from people like Bieganski, who seem to want to prove that Poland actually does dislike Jews. Even your wording "fanatic Jews" is offensive to me. What does that mean at all? A very Jewish Jew? You imply that the more Jewish a person is, the more anti-Polish he is. There are Jews who are barely aware of their Jewishness that say nasty things about "polish antisemitism" and there are orthodox Jews like me who don't think that Poland is more antisemitic than, say, France or Ireland. Frankly the whole question of whether Poles today like or hate Jews is as important to me as whether Koreans like Italians. Any Jew in Poland who feels uncomfortable is welcome to move to my neighborhood. (And I'm sure Bieganski would agree with that).

And by the way, selling "Jewish" souvenirs indicates nothing but a desire to make some money from Jewish tourists. I find the little wooden Jew dolls creepy.


I couldn't care less if you like the semites, the hittites or the midianites. Just stop setting up straw arguments and fake quotes so that you can knock them down, as if you're fearlessly debunking a myth. For example...


No, we don't cry that. When the hell do we ever go telling people that we're chosen? And what does Zionism have to do with "Chosenness". Zionism was a political and cultural movement to promote the idea of Jews returning to their homeland to be independent, reviving the Hebrew language and settling the land. Nothing to do with any sense of superiority.


You got that right. We won't. And we'll draw our own conclusions about that.


Who are you quoting here? We don't say that Jews are the only victims of hate in the world. In fact it wasn't a Jew who started this thread. It was a Pole who wanted to provoke answers like yours.

You're just an obnoxious overly-defensive person who has a problem with Jews. That's your problem, not mine.

In the face of Jewish identity issues it would be rather hard to focus entirely on religion as for some Jews an favorite pastime is playing a game - now I'm religious and now I'm not. The point is that Jews themselves identify more with their genetic heritage then religion, at least blood ties seems to be more important to them than religion.

Bollocks. I wouldn`t care if I was the only poster in this thread.


No, but the wording you used suggested it.


How many times will I have to explain what I am saying???? Can you go back to earlier posts, please?


Who knows? :):) That`s why I started the thread...... :):)


Funny. Do you really mean that because of certain posters and their comments we shouldn`t commence discussions????


The wording is a mental shortcut, indeed, and it means a Jewish person, fully aware and proud of his/her Jewishness, who remains aggressively anti-Polish.


Really? How many of them do you know?????


Then, the wording "fanatic Jew" isn`t about you. :):):)


If so, two questions:

1. Why participate here at all?
2. If the matter is important to me, may I present my fekking point of view and knowledge in the PF, if you allow, please???? Adding a few photos on the way????


Yes, there are millions of them, visiting Poland each year......buyint out all kinds of souvenirs with Jewish context :):):) The wooden doll industry has problems with meeting the demand........ :):):)


As are most wooden dolls chiseled according to that rustic woodworking style.


I forgot to say: again you are generalising in the same style which I didn`t like before. Why Poland??? I thought that poster Biegański has a nick which suggests a single person, not all Poland, and the views he is sharing with us are his private ones, not all Poles`.

I stress that the poster in question is not Polish.

I'll rephrase without generalizing. Often when the question comes up of whether Poles are anti-semitic, individual Poles like Bieganski start getting all excited and show resentment to Jews, as if the best defense against being accused of anti-semitism is to act anti-semitic. That gives the impression to some people that maybe there is substance to that accusation.


I don't comment on whether Poles hate Jews, because as i said, it doesn't matter to me. But I do comment when I see obnoxious posts or false statements about Jews or Israelis.


You don't need my permission. But I can express my opinion, just like you can.

He's not Polish, he's from North America. He's posted on here under many different names, too, and has a long history of ranting about Jews and alleged "Polonophobia".

Not worth wasting your energy on - he has a clear anti-Jewish agenda.

After reading excited anti- Jewish comments by ONE poster, some people you mention might get an impression that his views are common in Poland?

Do you think they are imbeciles??? :):):):)


I see. That`s good because it is going to add spice to our discussion. :):):):)
But....
Can I quote your own words???? :):)


:):):)

Remember what you said and stay calm. :):):)


So, your opinion is that I shouldn`t have started this thread because it has attracted anti Jewish remarks.


Do you mean your old friend with whom you loved discussing things and used to be suspended from time to time?? :):):)

But yes, it is interesting that Polish PF members who live in Poland are much more relaxed about Jews than their Am/Brit counterparts.

No, not him ;)

It's Puzzler, Krzyki and many other names - he was on here the other day using yet another name too. He gives the game away every time by talking about Polonophobia and Jews.


Doesn't surprise me to be honest - you guys live here and know how it really is, whereas they're depending on the Polonia newspapers that are usually written from a quite hard right wing perspective.

No, Puzzler used to be much more aggressive and abusive.


That is why Am Poles love voting right wingers in Poland? :):)

On the side note, do people still buy and read newspapers? :):)

Yep, that's a problem that even members of Polonia have been complaining about for years.

As for the topic of this thread: of course some Poles are anti-semites (some of every nation are utter morons); however, most Poles frankly couldn't give a toss whether somebody is Jewish or not.

Yes, and I write from the perspective of your second and the third group.


Ok, I delayed it for a while but it is time now to forget silly wooden dolls on folklore souvenir stalls and get really serious.

Shortly speaking, ultra nationalist parties in Poland which openly declare their antiJewish animosity get less than 1% votes in various elections.

e.g. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_National_Party

The leader of the party during the 1990s was Boleslaw Tejkowski.[1] Both the party and Tejkowski were notorious for their virulent nationalist and antisemitic propaganda.[1] The party was registered on March 22, 2004. In 2004 the party participated in the European Parliament elections and took the last 21st place with 0.04% votes. In the 2005 elections for the Polish Senate and Sejm, the party received 34,127 votes or 0.29% of the total.[2][3] In Presidential elections of the same year, Leszek Bubel received 18,828 votes, or 0.13%[4] The party did not compete in the 2007 Parliamentary elections nor in the 2009 European Parliament elections.

Agenda
Opposition to the return or compensation for private property seized from Jews after World War II by Poland.
Opposition to use of Roman Catholic Church to judaize Roman Catholicism.
Opposition to habitual humiliation of the Polish minority by Jews.
Opposition to Zionism, Communism, Antypolonizm and Globalization.
Opposition to emigrants and new cultures in Poland.
Opposition to non-Polish Mass Media in Poland (so-called Polish - lingual newspapers and TV stations)

Biegański, czy masz wątpliwość że byli obozy koncentracyne dla żydów?! Żydi byli według Hitlera nieprzyjacielem światowym, słowiańskie narody nie.

You, like much Eastern European youth, maintain ingrained anti-semitic sentiments because you feel history has judged you guilty by association. While this too is obviously unfair, gentile treatment of Jews was even more unfair. You clearly have misread history and therefore I can no longer convince you of the truth. Perhaps also your English is not at the commensurate level to follow my points:-)

Bieganski is Canadian, not Eastern European.

Ya coulda fooled me:-)

Hey, guys, get off Biegański. He isn`t such an antiJewish monster as you are trying to present. Simply speaking, he thinks that Jews get too much attention and it is irritating for him, that`s all.


Oh la la, is this support for the myth of inborn antisemitism intentional???

In that case, I have to quote your words:


:):):)

Well, I think gentiles get "too much" undeserved attention round about Christmas when I get my pockets picked by every Tom, Dick or Harry with a case of the holiday gimmies! Wouldn't you then logically turn right around and call me a Scrooge??

I think so:-)

I hope this is a clever answer but I am afraid it is wasted on me as I don`t get it. Sorry, I am not a native, I prefer reading Shakespeare translated. :(:(:(

You`d better explain


:):):)

Pawiańku,

niestety absolutnie NIE rozumiałes żart mojego zdania! US humor frequently makes clever use of deadly sarcasm aimed at foolish statements, notions or assertions by pretending to tacitly AGREE with them by seeming to take the other's viewpoint while actually being against their argument, as I was vis-a-vis the idea that Jews are somehow getting too much attention:-)

lol

At least you freely admit the fact that you're not an English native speaker and therefore that much of the gist of what I said was beyond you.

My respect for you has gone up a few notches ^^