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Is Vlad the Impaler or Vlad Tepes seen as a hero in Poland?


doomer321 1 | 5
4 Jun 2014 #1
I've stumbled upon an article online that details the life of Vlad, and it states that he is seen as somewhat of a hero in Eastern Europe and as a madman in the West.

I wanted to know how Vlad the Impaler is viewed in Poland. I do understand that there were German and Russian sources that detailed his life and that the German sources have a more negative view of him than the Russian ones. However, I'm interested to find out which sources/pamphlets helped influence Poland's views on Vlad the Impaler. The Russian or the German ones? Is he viewed as a hero in Poland?

Thanks in advance,
Magdalena 3 | 1,837
4 Jun 2014 #2
No, he is viewed as a sort of morbid curiosity, if anyone thinks of him at all, I guess. Some people might be more knowledgeable about the historical background, others will have a more cartoonish vision of the whole story, but almost nobody will have any really strong feelings about him one way or another.
Crow 147 | 9,311
4 Jun 2014 #3
Let at first note that Vlad III Prince of Wallachia (1431-1476) served in a same noble order as the famous Polish King Jan III Sobieski (1629 -1696). They both, each of them in its own time, were Draconists, members of the Dragon Order originally formed as the order (club) for Slavic and Christian nobility, by the Milos Obilic- Serbian Voivoide. Vlad himself has Serbian noble ancestry. On his tomb stone it reads: 'Here lies Vlad Tepes (Vlad the Impaler), the God's servant' written in Serbian.
Wulkan - | 3,249
4 Jun 2014 #4
Vlad Tepes seen as a hero in Poland?

Since he stopped Europe from further muslim invasion at that time I see him as a hero
smurf 39 | 1,981
4 Jun 2014 #5
Is he viewed as a hero in Poland?

No, he's not really viewed as anything....other than a prince from another country.
jon357 67 | 16,915
4 Jun 2014 #6
I don't think I've ever heard him mentioned.
OP doomer321 1 | 5
4 Jun 2014 #7
Thank you people for giving me your answers. It seems like the demographic is somewhat diverse when it comes to opinions Vlad Tepes.
Now here comes a difficult question. Does anybody know whether the Russian or German pamphlets help shape the opinion of the Polish population?
Anyways, continue with your comments if you'd like. They are greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
jon357 67 | 16,915
4 Jun 2014 #8
the Russian or German pamphlets

What Russian and German pamphlets?
Crow 147 | 9,311
5 Jun 2014 #9
Vlad

Vlad Tepes lived in cruel times, when Serbian Imperial Nemanjic`s throne collapsed under the pressure of Ottoman Turkish invasion and advancing germanization.

Hand on heart, Vlad was real child of his time. Result of agony. Cruel to the core. Back then Slavs considered him to be cure for sickness that occurred. Some others hated him and had great fear of him. Vlad had open disgust and hate for Saxons, Germans and Turks. For him, they were all the same. Vermins who acted against Slavs, openly or in some sinister schemes.

So, in his blind revenge, he exterminated many villages formed by German settlers in the area. He didn`t hesitate to slain traveling Saxon traders and, his greatest joy was to impale Turks in enormous numbers.

Sources:

Vlad the Impaler
occultworld.webs.com/vladtheimpaler.htm

Vlad Dracolya was not a good or kind prince. He had a terrifying habit of repeatedly raiding certain towns in his territory, and murdering great numbers of people. For reasons unknown, the towns selected for these meaningless attacks where often those towns who's populations had largly German ancestory. As a result, most of the remaining written records of Vlad come from pamphlets printed by the Germans on the newly invented printing press. The most famous picture of Vlad is a woodblock print from one of these pamphlets depicting Vlad eating his dinner on a grassy hill surrounded by a forest of impaled bodies.

VLAD TEPES DRACULA

"The Slavonic tales" present Vlad the Impaler in a favorable manner, understanding his authoritative policy and even naming him "a great ruler". Here is an excerpt from this book that is conclusive in this sense:

"And he hated evil in his country so much that, if anyone committed some harm, theft or robbery or a lye or an injustice, none of those remained alive. Even if he was a great boyar or a priest or a monk or an ordinary man, or even if he had a great fortune, he couldn't pay himself from death."

On the other hand, "The German tales" give an opposite image of Dracula.

The massacre of the boyars
vladtheimpaler.info/the_massacre.html

A German story about Brasov, a real massacre, says that Vlad the Impaler was sitting at a table filled with food and drink. In front of him, on a hill, some of his soldiers began to impale a number of the Saxon traders simply because of his dislike for them, and because of their attempts to remove him from the throne of Valachia. Another story, described the impaled bodies looking like a forest. Many German stories of that time, indicated that Vlad the Impaler caused many people to suffer. There are manuscripts dating from 1462 telling of impaling as his way of serving justice.

OP doomer321 1 | 5
5 Jun 2014 #10
Hmmmm interesting. I understand that the word "Slavic tale" is used interchangeably with "Russian tale."
I'm also aware that Polish and Russian are both Slavic languages, but does that mean the Russian tales/pamphlets influenced Poland's views on Vlad the most?

I've always thought that maybe the German tales were more influential due to Poland's proximity to Germany and their religious differences with the rest of Eastern/Central Europe.

Anyways, thanks for the help.
jon357 67 | 16,915
5 Jun 2014 #11
does that mean the Russian tales/pamphlets influenced Poland's views on Vlad the most?I've always thought that maybe the German tales

Neither. He isn't a big figure in PL. There's a local baddie, the Devil of £ańcut, however even he is hardly an everyday topic of conversation.
Crow 147 | 9,311
5 Jun 2014 #12
Hmmmm interesting. I understand that the word "Slavic tale" is used interchangeably with "Russian tale."

no. Not Russian tales. When we speak of domain of the Vlad Tepes, local Slavs were predominantly Serbians and sometimes Slovaks.

in PL. There's a local baddie, the Devil of £ańcut

Let us not forget that Polish dude Uter Pendragon in British islands, from the time of Arthurian legends. There was thread about him. His name `Uter` in Slavic languages meant in fact `Uterivac`, `Penetrator` in English or F****r if you want. He was Sarmatian in Roman service from what is today`s Poland. He was well know by his deeds and p***s.

no. Not Russian tales. When we speak of domain of the Vlad Tepes, local Slavs were predominantly Serbians and sometimes Slovaks.

Bulgarians, too. Those who escaped from Bulgaria and settled in Walachia due to Turkish invasion.
jon357 67 | 16,915
5 Jun 2014 #13
A lot of Vlachs settled in Poland centuries ago.
OP doomer321 1 | 5
7 Jun 2014 #14
Crow, so I'm going to guess that the word "slav" has changed it's meaning from time to time since the 15th century?

One thing that still irritates me is the articles on Vlad Tepes that states that he is viewed more positively in Eastern Europe despite the fact that the word "Eastern Europe" is thrown around loosely with no exact definition or boundary.

Anyways, judging from peoples responses, I'm going to assume that Vlad was never really seen as a hero or anything in Poland.
Crow 147 | 9,311
7 Jun 2014 #15
Crow, so I'm going to guess that the word "slav" has changed it's meaning from time to time since the 15th century?

not since 15th century. Earlier. Many opened questions on that ethnic name. i am among those who see it as self given name that was later hijacked by the hostile strangers who conquered old Slavs (Sarmatians/Thracians). After they were conquered, their rulers (Romans, Greaks, Teutons) took their name as the synonym for slavery; Slavs = slaves.

In any case its just one of at least three universal names that were/are ethnic designations for one and same people. Before name of `Slaviani` appeared in history, old Slavs (Proto Slavs) were labeled as Sarmatians and Thracians. Then, we know that Scythians were by old authors seen as branch of Sarmatians, as well as Dacians. Dacians were also seen as kin to Thracians. It was not strange/confusing even in the past, considering that obviously, since time immemorial names of Thracians and Sarmatians, as two names for one and same people goes hand in hand and parallel. Then, furthermore, by the western Europeans, old Iliryans were also seen as old Slavs. Also, Celts were/are seen as the branch of Scythians. This again connects name of Gauls to the Sarmatians/Thracians.

So, on the map of ancient Europe we on the first place see Proto Slavs, under different names, as the oldest European culture. But, not only European. Anciants lived on inter-continental level. In one moment on history, one and same people lived from what are today`s British islands, via Eurasia/Siberia, to the Ind river in India.

One thing that still irritates me is the articles on Vlad Tepes that states that he is viewed more positively in Eastern Europe despite the fact that the word "Eastern Europe" is thrown around loosely with no exact definition or boundary.

Vlad was by Slavs seen as someone who resist to the Turkish invasion and germanization. That on the first place.

In the same time, don`t forget that west of Europe often collaborated with Turks on the account of Slavs.

Anyways, judging from peoples responses, I'm going to assume that Vlad was never really seen as a hero or anything in Poland.

i am satisfied that Poland had neutral stance on Vlad. That`s how i see that. Back in those time, Poland was exposed to two main sources of informations. Those were on the first place Serbians, considering that they played role of the military elite in the pre-Commonwealt Poland and during Commonwealth. On the other side, Poland had to cope with the west of Europe due to specific historical circumstances. While Hungarian rulers, under the influence of Germans, sow Vlad exclusively in negative sense, Poland hesitated to see him in negative light.

Also, have in mind that famous Polish King Jan Sobieski acted as Grand master of the Dragon Order- originally founded by the Serbian Voivode Milos Obilic. Same noble order which earlier member was Vlad Tepes, too.
OP doomer321 1 | 5
7 Jun 2014 #16
Didn't the Order of the Dragon also have figures that were of Germanic origin?
I'm pretty sure Thomas Duke of Norfolk and Albert von Habsburg were among some of them, and as you might be aware of, Germany did not have a good view of Vlad.
jon357 67 | 16,915
7 Jun 2014 #17
Germany did not have a good view of Vlad.

The Venetians certainly didn't either, if the story that he nailed their Ambassador's hat to his head is true.
Crow 147 | 9,311
8 Jun 2014 #18
i know for story that Turkish ambassador got his turban nailed to his head. So, you say that Venetian Ambassador got his hat nailed, too? Interesting. At least nobody can`t complaint that Venetian got turban nailed and that Turk got hat nailed to his head. Vlad has precise.

Didn't the Order of the Dragon also have figures that were of Germanic origin?

no. Here is the story.... Original order was founded by the Serbian Voivode Milos Obilic who died in Kosovo battle in 1389 Serbs vs. Turks, where both leaders died in a battle- Serbian King Lazarus and Turkish Sultan Murad. Obilic sacrificed himself and lured into the Turkish tent where Murad sited. Milos opened stomach of the sultan with his knife and then himself was cut to minces by the sultan`s axe-bearing bodyguards.

Anyway, creation of the Order was last agonizing scream of the Serbian medieval Empire heavily endangered by the Ottoman invasion. Order of the Dragon was founded with the primary aim to eliminate Sultan Murad and to act in direction to stop further Turkish penetration onto Slavia. Call to join was at first sent to Slavic and then also to other European nobility. Milos founded Order with 12 other Serbian knights of which only one survived Kosovo battle. That one who survived was best swordsmen among them and by the medieval sources was the trainer in the arts of war to the young Prince Stefan Lazarevic- son of King Lazarus. Stefan Lazarevic was also member of the original Dragon Order. He continued to rule Serbia after death of his father being from time to time forced to have vassal relations either to the Ottomans, either to the Hungary. In any case, historical data confirms that he in any sense was player of the Sigismund- King of Hungary, who was his protector.

Sigismund, King of Hungary then called Lazarevic and with his assistance provided legitimacy for himself to become Grand Master of the Order. That moment is considered to be moment when order was revived by Sigismund, in legitimate way, on the fundaments of the original Order.

Now, speaking of Vlad Tepes, one can be sure that Hungarian or German nobility didn`t eliminate Vlad Tepes, solely thanks to the his connections in Dragon Order. No doubts about that.

Dragon Order existed formally for some 300 years. Many Slavic and European nobility took part in activities of the Order, from the Polish Kings to the Russian Tzars.
jon357 67 | 16,915
8 Jun 2014 #19
At least nobody can`t complaint that Venetian got turban nailed and that Turk got hat nailed to his head.

They can certainly complain about it. Plus the thousands who got impaled on that monster's orders.
Crow 147 | 9,311
8 Jun 2014 #20
one can always complaint to politicians, yes. Vlad was at least openly bloody. Can we say that for Tony Blair, Bill Clinton, Madelaine Albright and many other modern day politicians? No, we can`t.
jon357 67 | 16,915
8 Jun 2014 #21
Three good people there, two chosen by fair elections and served their terms of office, the other very highly respected and all three very good at standing up to the very worst sort of Balkan leader.

Mass killings in that part of the world have sadly continued long after Vlad the Impaler's day. Now fortunately it's a lot sooner before people hear about such crimes; the international community can respond more quickly and effectively and forensic pathology means that the mass graves of the victims tell their story too.
Crow 147 | 9,311
9 Jun 2014 #22
Things aren`t that simple. Dracula don`t live on Balkan. Its stereotype, forced by some mass media. Unfortunately, what we see in our time is that, more is some country advanced, greater the necessity for the violence.

Balkan is actually victim of powerful magnates from outside the region, from all sided of the globe. But, as we all know, not only Balkan.
jon357 67 | 16,915
9 Jun 2014 #23
Dracula don`t live on Balkan. Its stereotype, forced by some mass media

Certainly plenty of blood spilled there during the C20.

Though the origin of vampire legends (nothing to do with Vlad the Impaler) seems blindingly obvious.
OP doomer321 1 | 5
9 Jun 2014 #24
Speaking of the Balkans, does anybody know how Vlad Tepes is viewed in Greece? Villain or Hero?

how Vlad Tepes is viewed in Greece? Villain or Hero?

Since it's pretty obvious that Poland views on him seem very similar to that of the Germans......I think...
Crow 147 | 9,311
10 Jun 2014 #25
Let us also don`t forget that one number of German rapports about Vlad Tepes represent fake stories. It is historical fact. Vlad acted against Turks, while in some cases west of Europe collaborated with them. In the same time, Vlad reacted against Germanziation, too.


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