The problem is the Southern countries like Spain, Portugal, Italy, Greece etc.
That is wrong. The North Nigerians have interfered plenty in their domestic politics
And UNNR intervened in Spanish and Greek civil wars
USSR / Russia History and Military Interventions + Poland's Role
That is wrong. The North Nigerians have interfered plenty in their domestic politics
And UNNR intervened in Spanish and Greek civil wars
And UNNR intervened in Spanish and Greek civil wars
Wrong.
Stalin interfered in the Spanish Civil War - on the side of the good guys. The good guys lost anyway, and Spain had to live under a fascist dictatorship for some more decades.
Russian intervention on the Republican side is one of the main reasons Spaniards have a more neutral view of Russia, than say the UK or Poland.
-//-
Stalin did not interfere in the Greek Civil War. This was because of promises made to Churchill and Roosevelt about how Europe would be carved up.
Russia did intervene earlier, in the 1820s, when its support proved decisive in freeing the Greeks from Ottoman rule.
During the civil war you are thinking about, the Greek communists were instead supported by Yugoslavia, Bulgaria, and Albania.
-//-
As regards the rest of Southern Europe - relations were very good with Italy. Italy had the largest and most influential Communist party in Western Europe/NATO.
This manifested in the USSR being the largest foreign consumer of Italian cinema and music, and in the Italians essentially building the entirety of the USSR's modern civilian automobile industry (FIAT).
Relations with Portugal also very strong - because the PCP was a major political force over there. There was even a moment when people in Washington were worried that Portugal may drift into the Soviet aligned camp.
Stalin interfered in the Spanish Civil Wa
Small correction, The USSR was invited by the legal and democratic government of Spain to partner in the fight against fascism. CMS using the word interfere was making a political decision to downplay the historical reality. The Soviets were not interfering they were supporting the democratic government. The so called liberal democracies of Britain, France, Belgium etc, in reality racist empires, imposed a blockade on the democratically elected government. This blockade favoured the fascist states of Italy and Germany gave them succour for their later deeds.
Don't know if this is the thread for this but this is pretty stinking interesting:
i like glenn diesen. hes a proffessor but not afraid to challenge the herd.
The USSR was invited by the legal and democratic government of Spain to partner..
Of course including the Poles who fought
this is pretty stinking interesting
Thanks for the link, Anti.
I've just listened to the podcast. Which part of it did you think we should pay our attention to the most and why?
Do you have any comments or thoughts of your own on it, or is it merely a beginning of a "Europe is fvcked" series similar to Milo's soap opera about Russia? ;)
@Torq
Definitely not a Europe is fvcked series. 😊
The most important part is the pitfalls of a constructivist approach without consideration of reality. It seems to me that the West in general, including America, has suffered from this to our detriment. We have this hubris that portends our interests are all that matters-as if we exist in a vacuum that our actions will not trigger a reaction from someone else.
Another important point is the reality we no longer live in what the guy calls a unipolar world, but a multipolar one. America is not the lone superpower. We are in a period of flux, countries are determining who they should align with. From the perspective of an American, it is my contention that we need to be focused on building new relationships and strengthening the productive ones we already have.
I just got a notice I need to jump on a conference call...will continue post asap.
Definitely not a Europe is fvcked series. 😊
The most important part is the pitfalls of a constructivist approach without consideration of reality. It seems to me that the West in general, including America, has suffered from this to our detriment. We have this hubris that portends our interests are all that matters-as if we exist in a vacuum that our actions will not trigger a reaction from someone else.
Another important point is the reality we no longer live in what the guy calls a unipolar world, but a multipolar one. America is not the lone superpower. We are in a period of flux, countries are determining who they should align with. From the perspective of an American, it is my contention that we need to be focused on building new relationships and strengthening the productive ones we already have.
I just got a notice I need to jump on a conference call...will continue post asap.
an American, it is my contention that we need to be focused on building new relationships and strengthening..
It doesn't seem we are currently doing such; quite the contrary.
Another really important point the guy alluded to was we exist in a world of caricatures, we don't represent the actually realities of a foreign entity. We create a skewed, incomplete, and often inaccurate narrative of foreign countries and peoples. We see it here on PF quite a lot, Ams and Euros lob a whole bunch of bs at each other...much of it caricatured non-sense. How do you build productive relationships and solve problems when you aren't building on real soil or proposing solutions to problems that aren't properly defined?
I'm not sure I agree that Europe is doomed, but I've always thought the expansion of the EU from an economic union to a political union would cause some significant problems. Whether it is beyond reform without causing it to collapse like the guy said...I have no idea. But, it would not be good if it did collapse. The economic upheaval would be unmanageable and the amount of political discord that would follow could lead to yet another total European conflagration.
We are in a period of strong arming tactics and aggression that is not good for any of us. We need a little humility. We need to find solutions that serve the common good.
I've always thought the expansion of the EU from an economic union to a political union..
They've certainly proven much more resilient than many, many observers had expected them to be.
I remember how during the Euro Crisis every other headline was about the imminent implosion of the European project. Greeks and Italians and Spaniards calling Germans Nazis for the imposed austerity regimes, etc.
Now everything is reversed, the South is prospering, while Germany is instead now the sick man.
The same with Brexit. Many struggled to imagine how the Union may survive after losing such a hugely important net donor.
-//-
They really pulled together during Covid and then for Ukraine.
Now I don't think there are many serious voices arguing that the EU will simply implode tomorrow.
the perspective of an American, it is my contention that we need to be focused on..
I mean... you had ALL THE RELATIONSHIPS that mattered. Maybe you didn't have great relations with Uganda or Myanmar... but you had excellent relations with nearly every single developed economy.
Your friends were the richest and most advanced countries in the world.
And they didn't just follow your lead because they were afraid of you, or needed your markets - but also because they genuinely admired you.
-//-
You could and should forge "new relationships" with Russia, or China - but those will always be different to the relationship you had with the Europeans.
If I were American, I would focus first on rebuilding trust with Europe before setting out to make new friendships.
Not sure it's possible to rebuild trust with Europe at this point, however.
@AntV
Thank you for explaining your position.
If we agree with this Diesen fellow, then we have to drop all the pretention to any sort of moral high ground. If he says that Mexico would be bombed to oblivion if they tried to have Chinese military bases on their territory, then the West is no better than Russia invading Ukraine because they wanted to join NATO.
The guy is basically saying what we already knew: there is no international law-based order anymore and Europe is way more fvcked than the US because we still cling like retards to the old noble ideas of law, democracy, freedom and the right of nations to sovereignty and sovereign decisions regarding their future. Still, if I have the choice, I'd rather be a dead naive idealist than a living cynical scoundrel. You have to stand for something in life or you are no better than a worm (even if you are a full professor worm or a billionaire worm).
To cut the long story short: if Europe dies, we die - but at least we die with honour. Meanwhile the US can continue to insult their allies (if they still have any), appease their enemies, and serve their Jewish overlords. At least we won't have to look at it anymore. :)
It would be extremely difficult. Most likely impossible.
Thank you for explaining your position.
If we agree with this Diesen fellow, then we have to drop all the pretention to any sort of moral high ground. If he says that Mexico would be bombed to oblivion if they tried to have Chinese military bases on their territory, then the West is no better than Russia invading Ukraine because they wanted to join NATO.
The guy is basically saying what we already knew: there is no international law-based order anymore and Europe is way more fvcked than the US because we still cling like retards to the old noble ideas of law, democracy, freedom and the right of nations to sovereignty and sovereign decisions regarding their future. Still, if I have the choice, I'd rather be a dead naive idealist than a living cynical scoundrel. You have to stand for something in life or you are no better than a worm (even if you are a full professor worm or a billionaire worm).
To cut the long story short: if Europe dies, we die - but at least we die with honour. Meanwhile the US can continue to insult their allies (if they still have any), appease their enemies, and serve their Jewish overlords. At least we won't have to look at it anymore. :)
Not sure it's possible to rebuild trust with Europe at this point, however.
It would be extremely difficult. Most likely impossible.
They've certainly proven much more resilient than many, many observers had expected them to be.
I remember reading some predictions that it would collapse by now. Not saying they don't have major problems, but those are problems for them to solve...and we should be cheering them on to solve them positively; instead of telling them to bugger off ( you know I've lost my ability to express myself when I use british aphorisms 😊).
you had ALL THE RELATIONSHIPS that mattered
I know! It's distressing to see where we are. I thought we were going to be getting a skilled negotiator who would ultimately stregthen our ties by presenting win-wins, but nooooooo!
but also because they genuinely admired you.
The use of the past tense form of "admire" is not lost on me. Freaking Russians and their tortured souls always causing others to be depressed...thanks a lot Bobko for the depression 😄
You could and should forge "new relationships" with Russia,
My dreamiest dream was...no, IS we'll somehow be able to coalesce at least a mutual understanding if not a friendship between EU, USA, and Russia. **** the hell up, Maf, Let me dream... let me dream!!!
I would focus first on rebuilding trust with Europe before setting out to make new friendships.
We are atill Americans, we can do more than one thing at a time. Personally, I think forging a close relationship with India is key for the future. So, let's buy a beer for Europe and let them go back to being our whiny ass less successful older brother, while buying curry by the tanker shipload.
Personally, I think forging a close relationship with India is key for the future
Well - the very stable genius has managed to muck that up as well.
By all measures - him and Modi should have been best buddies. Two strongman populists (Modi is basically the Indian Trump), with similar ideas about how to run their countries (India First!).
The relationship started out, well enough, with papers writing about a budding "bromance".
Then Pakistan and India went to war, and Trump falsely claimed that he negotiated a ceasefire between them. Not realizing how insulting this was to the Indians, who see themselves as a rising superpower and were incensed by the idea that a third party could force any outcome on them.
Sneaky Pakistan, embraced the narrative - and even nominated Trump for a Nobel Peace prize. Trump responded the same way he always responds when someone praises him.
India instead kept insisting that Trump played no role in settling the war. They also started talking up the idea of an all encompassing trade agreement with the EU (which ultimately got inked).
Trump responded to all this by tariffing India, twice, the second time for buying Russian oil.
In their press and on social media, Indians express their frustrations at why America chooses to be friendly with an economic deadbeat like Pakistan, rather than the "superpower" India. Perhaps, Indians are forgetting that America has been allied to Pakistan for more than half a century, but regardless... it's what they discuss.
Now Indians are absolutely furious - because Pakistan has again achieved a coup - by becoming the key go-between for Iran and America.
Trump calls their leader "his favorite field marshal". Promises billions of dollars in investment for Pakistan.
Indians are like - "hello, these are the people that hid Osama Bin Laden from you?!"
Indians are running back into the Sino-Russian embrace - something they did not want to do just recently.
To cut the long story short
...or to cut it even shorter: it's better to die in defense of a noble cause than to live as a pinworm in some dictator's rectum.
And I am kinda proud that Europe still stubbornly refuses to turn into pinworms.
All hail the EU and f*ck all the dictators of this world (be they blonde, bald or slant-eyed) with a broomstick. :)
And I am kinda proud that Europe still stubbornly refuses to turn into pinworms.
That maybe taking it a bit too far, no?
In the end, Starmer came crawling back.
Merz is in damage control mode after Trump pulled out 5,000 soldiers.
Tusk is still talking about "transatlantic partnership".
The Finns, the Italians, the same.
-//-
If you really didn't want to be bullied - you wouldn't wait and would terminate America's military presence before waiting for them to do it anyway and then troll you further for being weaklings.
Be more like Spain!
Spain stood up to America - and what happened? Nothing.
@Torq
I must have missed something from the interview as I don't think he was advocating for a surrender of international law and assuming amorality. Rather, he was stating things as they are, or at least as he observes them.
This is essential for us to comprehend if we want to construct a landscape based on moral ideas and common good values. We can construct all we want, but if we try to build something on compromised ground, our structure will be compromised and possibly collapse. We first need to mitigate that which compromises the ground. One of the points this guy was making is we oftentimes caricature the compromising element which leads us to not mitigating that which compromises but mitigating the stability of our structure.
We can promote international law et al all we want, but if no one else accepts it, it does absolutely no good and it sure as hell doesn't serve the common good of anyone, including ourselveS. Therefore, we need to understand why the others take the contrary position and work toward addressing those concerns while promoting international law and things that are to serve the common good.
I think that last paragraph is what is more likely to bring about a real peace than simply having noble ideals. There's something theological about the above paragraph, it is a kind of evangelization...a going out to meet others where they are in hopes of revealing truth to them.
@Bobko
You just love to spread the depression, don't you?! 😄
I must have missed something from the interview as I don't think he was advocating for a surrender of international law and assuming amorality. Rather, he was stating things as they are, or at least as he observes them.
This is essential for us to comprehend if we want to construct a landscape based on moral ideas and common good values. We can construct all we want, but if we try to build something on compromised ground, our structure will be compromised and possibly collapse. We first need to mitigate that which compromises the ground. One of the points this guy was making is we oftentimes caricature the compromising element which leads us to not mitigating that which compromises but mitigating the stability of our structure.
We can promote international law et al all we want, but if no one else accepts it, it does absolutely no good and it sure as hell doesn't serve the common good of anyone, including ourselveS. Therefore, we need to understand why the others take the contrary position and work toward addressing those concerns while promoting international law and things that are to serve the common good.
I think that last paragraph is what is more likely to bring about a real peace than simply having noble ideals. There's something theological about the above paragraph, it is a kind of evangelization...a going out to meet others where they are in hopes of revealing truth to them.
@Bobko
You just love to spread the depression, don't you?! 😄
Starmer
Well, I said Europe, didn't I? Anyways, don't get me started on the Brits. Back on the continent...
Merz is in damage control mode
Hardly. Merz has recently started to pronounce clearly what most people in Europe think, including...
Tusk
... who pretty much dismissed the idea of Article 5 still meaning anything (at least in relation to the USA) and said we will have war with Russia in matter of months not years.
Be more like Spain!
I agree. Only preferably with stronger army. :) Of course nothing happens when you stand up to America. That's why in the brave new lawless world, Hungarians (until recently) and Slovaks made the right choice - "Trump is not going to bomb and invade us, Putin might do it, so let's become Putin's pinworms". No continent is free of such approach, and we have our pinworms too, of course. However, the idealistic - albeit suicidal - approach still prevails in the EU which fills my Polish heart with unspeakable joy.
@AntV
By all means, Americans can keep talking about "mitigating structural constructs of landscape based stability", whatever, while swirling your tongues furiously around various dictators' anuses, but forgive us if we: 1. vomit, 2. don't join you, 3. stick to not only "simply having noble ideals" but also defending them.
You just love to spread the depression, don't you?!
Sorry!
Genuinely surprised you had this view on India. I think it's intriguing. World's largest democracy, largest English speaking country in the world, and all that...
But back on topic - I'm not trying to spread depression - just cataloguing how this bastard has been destructive to nearly every single aspect of foreign policy.
-//-
To Paulina and other foreigners who are losing their minds over how America could elect such a baboon.... I think it's important to read American history.
Characters like Trump are not unique, but appear every now and then on the American national political stage. There's some precedent here, that's important to keep in mind.
Take Andrew Jackson for example:
1) Presented himself as the tribune of the "real people" against entrenched elites.
2) Treated institutions as subordinate to democratic legitimacy embodied in himself.
3) Inspired near-religious loyalty among supporters and visceral hatred among opponents.
4) Was accused by critics of being a tyrant, demagogue, and destroyer of constitutional norms.
5) Relied heavily on personal force, combativeness, and public spectacle.
6) Expanded executive power aggressively.
7) Thrived on polarization rather than consensus.
Sound familiar?
@Torq
But, our tongues often bump into each other as we swirl around the same anuses. Unfortunately, Europe is not a lighthouse of pure morality either.
I thought we talked about that before....see, I'm slipping.
Hasn't Trump said Old Hickory (crikey...I sound like Lyzko) is his second favorite Prez?
But, our tongues often bump into each other as we swirl around the same anuses. Unfortunately, Europe is not a lighthouse of pure morality either.
Genuinely surprised you had this view on India
I thought we talked about that before....see, I'm slipping.
Take Andrew Jackson
Hasn't Trump said Old Hickory (crikey...I sound like Lyzko) is his second favorite Prez?
our tongues often bump into each other
Bwahahahaha! Hehehehe!
see, I'm slipping.
No - I drink too much. I'm sure you are right.
Hasn't Trump said Old Hickory (crikey...I sound like Lyzko) is his second favorite Prez?
Yes he has!
Also McKinley and Reagan.
I don't want to upset anyone, so I won't say what I think about those two.
Europe is not a lighthouse of pure morality either.
This is indeed painfully true.
However, it is thanks to the remaining shards of European honour that Trump still failed to force Ukraine into submission and reward Putin for his aggression with territorial gains.
The scales in Europe can still tip to either side - honour or tongue swirling - so I am merely arguing and keeping my fingers crossed for the former.
we still cling like retards to the old noble ideas of law, democracy, freedom and the..
No, because elites in chare are incompetent and they concerned only about keeping their positions and money. Big tech and Pharma and all big German and French corporations are lobbing them and they are introducing all those crazy policies without thinking because they need their support to keep their positions.
It a lot akin to stagnation of degeneration of elites before WWI, it looked like that state of affairs will last for ever.
---
the EC is pushing all those changes that have nothing to do with what countries agreed to. Those changes aim at solidity structure of the current EU, with some countries in charge and others like Poland having status of semi-colonies.
-----
Torq you are a keen supporter of the EU. Here for you something that makes sense contrary to the current BS the EU organization.
Each country (except for Luxemburg and those entities with status of a country but in reality a large village) should send two Senators to a Senate, the Lower House of the Parliament should elect one representative for every five million people, both house should elect a President from candidates elected by their respective countries.
honour
How can it be honor and not tongue swirling?
You will not create a unified army - correct?
You will not create a replacement for NATO, at least quickly - correct?
You will not issue common debt - correct?
You will not erase individual national sovereignty - the ultimate necessity if you want to confront the US, China, or Russia - correct?
-//-
You need some Hitler or some Napoleon - to give you the muscles you need.
But for this... one European country must become stronger than all the others.
I'm sure you are right
Don't be so sure...I'm one of the duller knives in the drawer.
Not that I condone too much drinking, but I hope you are drinking good stuff, like the vodka Torq gave me (Pan Tadeusz and Mickiewicz)-smooth with just enough after burn.
Also McKinley and Reagan
I think he only says Reagan to make people like me happy. Now the Granddaddy of the Tariff, he probably loves with deep affection.
So Trump's list of fave presidents are:
1. Trump
2. Trump
3. Jackson
4. McKinley
5. Reagan (wink, wink)
I think he only says Reagan to make people like me happy
I think you are absolutely correct.
I'm one of the duller knives in the drawer.
If you are a dull knife, then I am some strap-on dildo.
reward Putin for his aggression with territorial gains.
You think this can end without Russia gaining some Ukrainian territory?
Personally, I have no idea how it ends. I think there are some very deep things going on there that none of us outside that pandora's box can understand or even comprehend. Either that or it's so simple it makes it complicated to solve.
The scales in Europe can still tip to either side - honour or tongue swirling
Likewise in America. We share a lot in common. We're just as honorable, just as tongue swirling. We, however, don't have as long a history of being the demanding recipients of anus swirling as Euros but we're doing our best to catch up. We just need some time 😄
You think this can end without Russia gaining some Ukrainian territory?
Absolutely - they are drunk idiots and are unable to control the population in the occupied zone. I know all Americans are intent to stitch Ukraine up, but since cutting off aid and Vance's brainfart the opinion of the US matters less and less
@cms neuf
Hahahaha!
At least you are pleasuring someone. I'm just useless and take up space. 😂
Hahahaha!
If you are a dull knife, then I am some strap-on dildo.
At least you are pleasuring someone. I'm just useless and take up space. 😂
You think this can end without Russia gaining some Ukrainian territory?
I think that this will not end if Russia gains some Ukrainian territory.
Giving Putin Crimea and Donbas and hoping he will stop there is like giving Hitler Austria and Sudetenland and hoping he would stop there.
Don't we ever learn?
Besides, there is no way that Ukrainians can leave their fortified positions in the east without becoming extremely vulnerable and risking another Russian aggression westwards, this time nearly impossible to stop without ready defensive lines. And don't talk to me about treaties and guarantees - they are worth less than toilet paper these days.
@Iron
I am all for reforming and strenghtening the EU. At the moment Europe is the only thing that separates the world from sliding down a very slippery slope.
You will not erase individual national sovereignty
Preferably, this should be avoided. However, if we can only stop the world from becoming a cesspool of various smaller and bigger Hitlers by uniting Europe further at the cost of limiting individual states' sovereignty, then - and I say it with aching heart - so be it.