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Terrible past for the Jews in Poland?


Ozi Dan 26 | 569
18 Mar 2015 #361
I wrote about historical facts because the overrepresentation of Jews in directorship of the MBP in 1944-1954 is a historical factThe point still is: many of these Jewish people were Polish. You differentiate between them, and my first question in this thread was "Why?" Back to square one?

To my mind the answer is this:

If it is a fact that there was an overrepresentation of Jewish Poles (Polish Jews, Poles of Jewish faith, Jewish people who lived in Poland or whatever) in the Polish Communist regime, then in asking the question of why Jewish Poles (Polish Jews, Poles of Jewish faith, Jewish people who lived in Poland or whatever) made up a disproportionate number, one must needs be differentiate for the purposes of the exercise.

Questioning "Why?" the differentiation is, with respect, as useless as, for example, asking a statistician conducting a survey on prison populations in the US why they differentiated between African American, Hispanic American, Asiatic American, Caucasian American etc people in custody in the USA when they are all Americans anyway.

Or, to use a more Australian example, questioning a Royal Commission into death in custody why they differentiated between indigenous Australians and non-indigenous when both subsets are in the end Australian.

I suppose one could use an even more relevant example to yourself and ask you why you differentiate between Germans displaced during and after WW2 and Poles displaced during and after WW2 when all these people are human and/or from Europe etc etc.

If you can answer that question in respect of yourself, then you may have answered the question you posed to Paulina, if indeed her motivation was the same as yours.

I see several answers open to you - purely academic reasons, an objective sense that there has been an injustice, or because you identify strongly with your German heritage and are aggrieved that Germans were displaced. If there's another answer then let me know.

So what do you do with those 3.5+ million Polish members of the communist party? Deny that they ever existed?

Do with them? In what regard exactly?

For the ones who freely, opportunistically and voluntarily signed up as Commies and took part in the subjugation, murder and control of their countrymen, I think we can all agree they are deserving of a special place in hell for their treachery. As to how many that is, no one really knows.

For the rest, what would you do to the father who was left no choice but to join the SB under threat of what would happen to his family if he didn't? What of the invalid AK veteran who had to become a card carrying member to survive? Or what of the Jewish Pole, once a lawyer in pre WW2 Warsaw, who was similarly forced into the role of Prosecutor because if he didn't he'd be shot in the back of the head?

Who really knows?

What I do know is that just before the Soviet takeover, say late 1944/early 1945, the number of Polish people (of whatever faith or race) who professed to being Communist could be counted in the hundreds, and that's probably being generous.

From 100's to 1,000,000's in the space of a few years suggest the Soviets and Polish Communists were selling something in their doctrine that really appealed to all those Poles who joined up after WW2 - as to what that something was, I don't know, but if you find it let me know and we'll start our own political party.
Vox - | 175
18 Mar 2015 #362
I meant that you did misunderstand what I wrote

Paulina, It is quite obvious that the Other is unable or unwilling to make a logical, clear and coherent argument, a one that would comprehensively express his views. I think he has a very good reason to remain vague, unclear and to talk in riddles, for he feels a certain way about Poles and as you know emotions do not listen to reason and cannot be argued with.
Maninknow
18 Mar 2015 #363
The Jewish gene is so deeply entrenched in Poles, it would not be the first time a little self loathing has been active amongst the Polish community. It would be interesting to find out the numbers of those born after 1960 in Poland without the Jewish gene.
Harry
18 Mar 2015 #364
It would be interesting to find out the numbers of those born after 1960 in Poland without the Jewish gene.

I'd be interested in finding out how many times more people there are in Poland who have a few 'Jewish markers' in their DNA than there are people in Poland who are Jews.
TheOther 5 | 3,711
18 Mar 2015 #365
Questioning "Why?" the differentiation is, with respect, as useless as, for example, asking a statistician conducting a survey on prison populations in the US why they differentiated between African American, Hispanic American, Asiatic American, Caucasian American etc people in custody in the USA when they are all Americans anyway.

Difference is, African American, Hispanic American, Asiatic American, Caucasian American are still considered Americans.

The "Why" is important because "the Jews" are made responsible for what happened between 1945 and 1989 because they were "overrepresented in the communist terror apparatus" until 1954 as someone stated. It's a broad generalization, as you know, and its only purpose seems to be to distract from that particular part of Polish history. Propaganda. Real Poles cannot possibly be communist, it must have been the Jews and/or the Soviets. Roughly 50% of the MPB directors were Polish according to that particular source, and another 37% were Jewish. How many of the latter were Polish citizens? What about the years from 1954 to 1989? The Soviets were ultimately responsible for what happened behind the Iron Curtain, of course, but there were still 3.5+ million members of the Polish communist party - 10% of the population.

Do with them? In what regard exactly?

What I meant is that you can't claim that 3.5 million people were simply opportunists, Jews or traitors. That doesn't make them go away and doesn't undo what happened. Maybe the Nazis were also only opportunists and traitors, or the Chinese communists (when the Chinese system will fail one day)? When it comes to history, you can't just cherry-pick the great achievements of Poland's past and pass the buck if there is a stain.

From 100's to 1,000,000's in the space of a few years suggest the Soviets and Polish Communists were selling something in their doctrine that really appealed to all those Poles who joined up after WW2

Well, they were selling the same sh*it as the Nazis, just in a different color. Just shows how effective propaganda can be, I guess.

you identify strongly with your German heritage

Come on, mate, stop that nonsense please. I've explained to you a million times already that I'm only interested in the genealogical aspects of it, so don't try to file me under a category that allows you to close your eyes and abolish thinking.
jon357 67 | 16,921
18 Mar 2015 #366
The "Why" is important because "the Jews" are made responsible for what happened between 1945 and 1989 because they were "overrepresented in the communist terror apparatus" until 1954 as someone stated. It's a broad generalization, as you know, and its only purpose seems to be to distract from that particular part of Polish history

Spot on. And worse that some people pretend that is somehow relevant to issues of prejudice during the other 90% of Poland's history.
Borek Falecki - | 52
18 Mar 2015 #367
The Jewish gene is so deeply entrenched in Poles, it would not be the first time a little self loathing has been active amongst the Polish community. It would be interesting to find out the numbers of those born after 1960 in Poland without the Jewish gene.

Why people on this forum are so much fixed on that DNA. After all jewishness as any other nationhood is a historical construct and a very recent one.

From the book by prof Shlomo Sand: The Invention of the Jewish People:

At a certain stage in the 19th century, intellectuals of Jewish origin in Germany, influenced by the folk character of German nationalism, took upon themselves the task of inventing a people "retrospectively," out of a thirst to create a modern Jewish people. From historian Heinrich Graetz on, Jewish historians began to draw the history of Judaism as the history of a nation that had been a kingdom, became a wandering people and ultimately turned around and went back to its birthplace.

haaretz.com/general/shattering-a-national-mythology-1.242055
yehudi 1 | 433
18 Mar 2015 #368
There were kings in Polish history that Poles are proud of and there were kings that Poles are ashamed of.

You've convinced me to some extent: Even if in some periods many segments of Polish society were less than friendly to Jews, it is a good thing that Poles today take pride in the acceptance Polish Kings showed to Jews. The things we take pride in reflect our values.

Your points about Jews mistreating Palestinians are a different matter. It's a whole different discussion and I think you're misinformed. I agree that we're not victims anymore. But just because we're not victims doesn't mean that we're perpetrators. In any case, that's a discussion that has nothing to do with Polish-Jewish history. If you brought it up to point out that Jews aren't perfect and now that we have sovereignty we're sometimes nasty - I'll agree to that. We're only human and under a lot of pressure. But the Israel - Arab conflict is a long complex process, and the Israeli-Palestinian aspect of it can't be looked at as a separate issue of majority vs minority. It's much more complex because in the region Israel is by far the minority. If you want a serious discussion of Israel-Arab relations this isn't the right forum.

After all jewishness as any other nationhood is a historical construct and a very recent one.
From the book by prof Shlomo Sand: The Invention of the Jewish People:

His thesis is so ridiculous that it can't be taken seriously by anyone with any knowledge of Jewish history. The Jews considered themselves a People in the Biblical period (read the Bible. It's everywhere), in the Greek period (the Hasmonean wars against the Hellenists) Roman period (revolution against Rome), in the Talmudic period (it's full of references to "Israel" as a nation) and throughout the middle ages. It would be ludicrous to think that Jews saw themselves as Germans or Frenchmen when they came to those lands before there was such a thing as German or French nationhood. The Jews never considered themselves anything but a nation in exile until modern times.

If anything is a recent development it's the idea that Jews are not a nation but just a religion followed by random people around the world (as in "Germans of the Mosaic Faith") That was the modern invention that only started in the 19th century. The national identity of Israel (the word referred to the People before it referred to the state) is older and more established than that of any nation except maybe the Chinese and the Greeks. Shlomo Sand is an idiot with an agenda.
Borek Falecki - | 52
18 Mar 2015 #369
The Jews never considered themselves anything but a nation in exile until modern times.

The concept of nationhood and of modern nation originated just around the French Revulsion so nation in exile as you put it is inventing a people "retrospectively," out of a thirst to create a modern Jewish people.

As for Shlomo Sand being an idiot with an agenda.

"In the Israeli discourse about roots there is a degree of perversion. This is an ethnocentric, biological, genetic discourse. But Israel has no existence as a Jewish state: If Israel does not develop and become an open, multicultural society we will have a Kosovo in the Galilee."

The agenda seems to be then a noble one.

The French Revolution not the French Revulsion. Sorry.
Vox - | 175
18 Mar 2015 #370
The Jewish gene is so deeply entrenched in Poles,

Are you able to back up your claim with any evidence?

The "Why" is important because "the Jews" are made responsible for what happened

You are unable to provide a coherent and logical argument to support your view and the way you feel about some issues. So, instead you resolved to wear dawn everyone who partake in this discussion by repeating yourself numerous times.

As much as I admire your density, sorry tenacity I don't see sense or merit in debating with you. Somebody who is attached so much to his opinion that is unwilling to look beyond his limitations, somebody who is not an open-minded person.
Lyzko 30 | 7,386
18 Mar 2015 #371
It is a fact that Jews and Jews alone were blamed by the Nazis especially as harbingers of despised Communism, therefore demonized as none other to become symbols of all that is evil, corrupt and pernicious in the world, not the Gypsies etc. Only the "international Jew" was perceived as a direct threat! The failed Eisner government before 1919 in Bavaria was seen as proof of what happens when Jewish Communist try and take over. Sources??!

How curious that sources are required in order to confirm basic facts of history, whereas no such sources are ever (or rarely!!) required among anti-semites for evidence as to why the Jews are evil. THAT they accept at face value:-)

A bit hypocritical, don't you think?
TheOther 5 | 3,711
19 Mar 2015 #372
It is a fact that Jews and Jews alone were blamed by the Nazis especially as harbingers of despised Communism

Exactly, they were 'blamed' ... and they were blamed for a very specific reason, as we all know.
Lyzko 30 | 7,386
19 Mar 2015 #373
....which was, namely??? No, we don't know, but we're sure dying to find outLOL
goofy_the_dog
19 Mar 2015 #374
it is a matter of fact that many Jews formed the communist party in Russian and in many other nations, I have couple of ideas why a Jew would become a communist... but it is the truth the during the PRL, before Gomulka's expulsion, the Party, UB and WSI were formed in majority by the Jews.

In my opinion why the Jews joined the Communist party was quite simple, it was simply out of the Tsarists' regime's hate for them, they were discriminated against in the Tsarist russia for decades, expusled to the Pale region, Poland-Western ukraine etc, they were forbidden to work in many jobs suchas doctors etc.. why were they forbidden to work in certain proffesions, why were disliked by the puiblic and hated by the govt are also quite complex questions.. as with every topiv, there's no black and white.

But coming back to the main topic, thus these hated Jews created a generation of people that wanted to change the world around the, they saw their saviour in marx who promised Equality and the liberation and mainly the Internationale ideology of the masses so they turned red, gave up on old Believs of their Ancestors Faith and became Communists... theres a perfect song about this topic:
Marsupial - | 886
19 Mar 2015 #375
I can see and it is abvious how a group of people wanting more for themselves but also more equility joined a movement such as communism which is supposed to re-distribute wealth and assets among the people. When preaching unfairness I find the jews never mention their vast numbers in that movement. A movement which brought decades of pestilence and decay.
TheOther 5 | 3,711
19 Mar 2015 #376
which was, namely??? No, we don't know

You are serious, are you? Hitler and the NSDAP picked the Jews to blame them for being the main reason for the loss of WW1. Ever heard of "Dolchstosslegende" (rhetoric question - the answer is of course no)? Using them as scapegoats was a preparation for what was to come later. Expulsion of Germans of Jewish faith, Kristallnacht, KZ's, Ausschwitz...

I know that some of our PF brownshirts are a bit thick, but that someone could possibly be as ignorant as you is certainly a new low.
jon357 67 | 16,921
19 Mar 2015 #377
Hitler and the NSDAP picked the Jews to blame them for being the main reason for the loss of WW1

Indeed, despite prejudices in Germany and Austria existing far longer and the ideological roots of that movement preceding WW1 by many years. There's a strong parallel with some of the PF Brownshirts sniping about events between 1948 and 1956 as an attempt to distract from the darker chapters in the 700 years of history that preceded that.
goofy_the_dog
19 Mar 2015 #378
distract from the darker chapters in the 700 years of history that preceded that.

care to elobarate :) You mean giving the rights to Settlemenent? or the unmet anywhereelse in Europe Polish tolerance.
If you didn't know, which is okay ofc, Poles think a bit differently than most of the other Nations, for us citizenship and Nationality are two different things, thus throughout our glorious 700 years history, a Jew, Rusyn, Ukrianian or Lithuanian were alll Polish citizens, of the their own nationality though, it was to show srespected to their own individual cultures.

You are also mistaken of the year, I'd extend the Jewish influence in the secret services from 1944-1960

Brownshirts

It's not the UK where such groups were seen in their hundreds throughout the 20th century, we are talking of Poland, a country that fought the German occupier to the last drop of blood you morron, learn some history for God's sakes!
jon357 67 | 16,921
19 Mar 2015 #379
You mean giving the rights to Settlemenent? or the unmet anywhereelse in Europe Polish tolerance.

In what what does that detract from any other incident, restriction or oppression? It's as if you're saying that bad stuff didn't ever happen since there was good stuff written down on paper!

Poles think a bit differently than most of the other Nations

That depends on the person, doesn't it. You're also attempting to reify one specific concept of nationality (vigorously debated in PL, by the way).

It's not the UK where such groups were seen in their hundreds throughout the 20th century, we are talking of Poland

Entirely an irrelevance since we aren't talking about the UK, though worth reminding you that there were always far fewer fascists than on the Wisla - do learn some history rather than just listening to Dmowski-ist propaganda.
goofy_the_dog
19 Mar 2015 #380
Entirely an irrelevance since we aren't talking about the UK

Its perfectly relevant since a foreigner tries to lecture me and also judges my country's history as of his country was somekind of a beacon of liberty and freedom.

The so called oppresion of the jews, so called since something like a 20 died from that one pogrom, and that ban on settlement in Warsaw have been overblown by you to the massive proportions, since there was a very few such incindents and you still try to promote the idea that Poland was like any other European nation in that time which false of course.

Apart from that the ban on settlement in cities like Warsaw can eb understood, many Jews did not want to aocialise, many could only speak yidish and didnt care about the Homelands culture.. something like the Muslim problem that the UK faces today.. apart from that many of higher classed Jews: doctors and lawyers for an example would conspire against the goyem- Poles and other faiths/nationalities in order to destroy their bussiness , that is why the goverment decided on such draconian measures in the 1920s.

Apart from that I would not blame the Poles for any oppressions and persecutions during the Partitions since thse were the times when Poland was not on the map, and it was alien governments, especially the Russian one which spewed hate for our fellow Poles.

The laws that I mentioned were not only on paper, they were also in action, and Jews to this thank us for our hospitality.

Layoff Dmowski as well please, as a person with very limited knowledge on the topic, and as a foreigner you have no right to talk about a man that did everything he could for the II Republic, somethings are left unsaid as the saying goes. Without Dmowski there wouldnt be a Free Poland.
jon357 67 | 16,921
19 Mar 2015 #381
Its perfectly relevant since a foreigner tries to lecture me

Well, there are plenty of Polish language fora if you don't enjoy discussions with 'foreigners' albeit ones who've spent far longer in PL than yourself.

The so called oppresion of the jews,

so called since something like a 20 died from that one pogrom, and that ban on settlement in Warsaw have been overblown by you to the massive proportions

So-called??? Yes, there was opression. The number of recorded incidents was huge and nothing you can say could ever whitewash that.

he ban on settlement in cities like Warsaw can eb understood

Understood as opression and racism.

and as a foreigner you have no right to talk about a man that did everything he could for the II Republi

Really? Aside from the unspoken assumption that everyone in Poland shares your view on Dmowski, which they very much do not, it seems staggering that you think the "right to talk about" a topic on here is predicated by ethnicity. As I say there are plenty of Polish language fora, however unless you stuck to the Dmowski-ist pseudopatrioci fora you would find equally coherent opposition to your views there too.
goofy_the_dog
19 Mar 2015 #382
I think that you shoudl change your pesudo-Polacy community, also lay off GW and TVN they are messing with you rhead a bit ;) also great way of avoiding any of the points... no matter what you say history's in books.

Sure Dmowski is misunderstood by many Poles, or disliked by the commie ones or the lieftists, but the thing is that the truth about Dmowski's Blue Army, West-East relation and also an apposition to the Jewish takeover of many areas of economy is all in the history books, something that i'd advise you to read instead of getting brainwashed all the time.

It is quite ionteresting how literally every Pole on the forum says something different than the British Three here isnt it? Kind of makes you think huh?
Vox - | 175
19 Mar 2015 #383
There's a strong parallel with some of the PF Brownshirts sniping about events between 1948 and 1956 as an attempt to distract from the darker chapters in the 700 years of history that preceded that.

Would you be able to provide evidence that support your claim rather than hitting on about alleged dark deeds that cannot be named? You are a worse gossiper than a woman.

While you are on it would you be able to explain how talking about historical facts is sniping? Are you sniping about dark chapters as an attempt to distract from the facts?
jon357 67 | 16,921
19 Mar 2015 #384
also lay off GW and TVN they are messing with you rhead a bit ;)

Never see either.

And yes, Dmowski is very misunderstood by pseudopatrioci. Your comments interesting mirror the anti-semitic reification of victim-mentality among some sectors of society.

to the Jewish takeover of many areas of economy

There you go again. Perhaps you'd approve of excluding or imposing quotas on Jewish Poles entering certain spheres of life.

And you say there was no oppression...
goofy_the_dog
19 Mar 2015 #385
Perhaps you'd approve of excluding or imposing quotas on Jewish Poles entering certain spheres of life.

If any part of the society decides to take over a whole branch of economy, discriminating against Catholics and the majority population (Poles etc) then these people should be punished.

The state protected the country against the rising tide of Jewish nationalism was it wrong during these times? It was a reation on an action and thats the honest truth.

Never see either.

BS or you read their English transcriptions.. anythign from Agora S.A is part of their propaganda for an example.

pseudopatrioci

I think that you are misunderstanding that word.. please use English language if you dont know what it means, at least used in the same place it does not make sense withing the sentence.
jon357 67 | 16,921
19 Mar 2015 #386
If any part of the society decides to take over a whole branch of economy, discriminating against Catholics and the majority population (Poles etc) then these people should be punished.

That's quite an extreme statement which begs certain questions. Whether if fact any part of society had "decided to take over" any branch of the economy, whether any other group, perhaps the majority group, had ever done the same and the biggest question of all what type of punishment you would recommend....

BS or you read their English transcriptions.. anythign from Agora S.A is part of their propaganda for an example.

Nope. Perhaps you think people should only read propaganda that fits your views that:

these people should be punished.

.
Hey, you said there was no real oppression and now you're proposing it.

I think that you are misunderstanding that word.. please use English language if you dont know what it means

Probably I understand it more cogently than your own jejeune interpretation, should one exist. It seems your views are not only at variance with most people outside PL, but also with most educated people within the country too.
goofy_the_dog
19 Mar 2015 #387
Hey, you said there was no real oppression and now you're proposing it.

real oppresions are dead people on the streets, pogroms etc

political action against people that try to discriminate agaist others is NOT oppresion, it is the defence of a just society.

Probably I understand it more cogently than your own jejeune interpretation

Still havent actually explianed what the hell did you mean.
jon357 67 | 16,921
19 Mar 2015 #388
real oppresions are dead people on the streets, pogroms etc

All of those have sadly been seen among the Jewish population of Poland. Within living memory.

political action against people that try to discriminate agaist others is NOT oppresion, it is the defence of a just society.

Again wrong. Check out the meaning of oppression. Discrimination too. Glad to see you're trying to be politically correct though. Albeit in a kind of Ben Elton 80s 'right-on' way.

Still havent actually explianed what the hell did you mean.

Plenty of Polish language fora if you have trouble with English.

Anyway, I'm intrigued. You say:

these people should be punished.

so what 'punishment' exactly are you proposing?
goofy_the_dog
19 Mar 2015 #389
All of those have sadly been seen among the Jewish population of Poland. Within living memory.

Yes what the Germans did is disgraceful

Plenty of Polish language fora if you have trouble with English.

If you have any problem wuith explaining what did you mean then on your place I'd consult a psychiatric specialist, that maybe an early start of memory loss illnes or soemthing like that.

so what 'punishment' exactly are you proposing?

Exactly what was done by the Polish governwmnt strict control of who is running the bussinesses aned punishing thos that conspire against other bussiness man due some ideological reasons- Zionism for an example. That is what was done in the 1930s Poland, nothing more, nothing less.
jon357 67 | 16,921
19 Mar 2015 #390
Yes what the Germans did is disgraceful

Before then and afterwards - which is what we were talking about. However much you try to dodge the issue.

Exactly what was done by the Polish governwmnt strict control of who is running the bussinesses aned punishing thos that conspire against other bussiness man due some ideological reasons

So you're supporting restrictions on whay Jews could or couldn't do? Yes

what the Germans did is disgraceful

And you say there was never oppression...


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