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Can anyone from Poland tell me about Auschwitz and The Ghetto?

gregy741 4 | 1,204
3 Aug 2017 #331
y documented by living witnesses..

i recommend Irene Weisberg Zisblatt good fun
and this italian guy,i dont remember hes name...give you when i find him
got it...Dario Gabbai
jon357 67 | 16,921
3 Aug 2017 #332
good fun

Nothing fun about Ghettos and Death Marches, Greggs. Nothing at all.
gregy741 4 | 1,204
3 Aug 2017 #333
so you didnt watch her testimony? its one of few major witness in gas chambers errrr theory ..her and this guy dario
and you never even seen their testimonies?
go,have a look,dont be afraid...see and judge yourselves
jon357 67 | 16,921
3 Aug 2017 #334
There are many 'major witnesses' Greggs. And it isn't a 'theory'. It is fact.
gregy741 4 | 1,204
3 Aug 2017 #335
There are many 'major witnesses' Greggs

very few..
irene run away from gas chamber--naked..they chased her ,but she hid under barack..then ss-man spoted her,but he was good,so he throw her over the electric fence...she fell on train ,and it took her to another death camp.. not you guys
she was major star in this spielberg project..major gas chamber witness,who survived gassing.
its better story than bartoszewskis L4 release
jon357 67 | 16,921
3 Aug 2017 #336
very few..

No. There is overwhelming evidence from survivors of different Death Camps, from former German soldiers who operated them, and from contemporary photographs.
gregy741 4 | 1,204
3 Aug 2017 #337
okey..i better stop or they lock me in won
jon357 67 | 16,921
3 Aug 2017 #338
.you won

No, Greggs. There are no 'winners' where the Holocaust is concerned. Nothing good to say about it, nothing good about its immense scale or its horrors.
gregy741 4 | 1,204
3 Aug 2017 #339
There are no 'winners' where the Holocaust is concerned.

i think that The truth suffered most in this story
jon357 67 | 16,921
3 Aug 2017 #340
The truth

The truth about the sheer scale and visceral evil of the Holocaust is very clear. So many witnesses, so many confessions from guards, so many contemporary photographs, so much physical evidence.
gregy741 4 | 1,204
3 Aug 2017 #341
The truth about the sheer scale and visceral evi

this is not saying this didnt happen but not the way it did.things were exaggerated alot.
in my gran village there were 40% jews before war,there are non it would be foolish not to acknowledge holocaust.(by the way,she told me alot about german soldiers and other stories)

and i read alot and seen and read maybe hundrets of testimonies,from both sides..i use to read alot memories and letters from wermacht soldiers and commander ect.

really,stop believing in everything that is being shoved to you man,,its just lazy people who cant be bothered to seek facts believe in all funny thing.

like Putin hacking US election ect.
jon357 67 | 16,921
3 Aug 2017 #342
am not saying this didnt happen but not the way it did

That doesn't actually make much sense.

The thing is, Greggs, it's very thoroughly documented. Everything. The Nazis (with their German efficiency) took thousands of photographs and kept exhaustive records. Deutschesbahn kept their full records of transportation to the Death camps. Even the SS members after the war gave complete testimony to what was done and how it was done. And there are survivors accounts, not just written down decades later, but straight after the events. Plus of course the aerial photographs taken by Allied reconnaisance planes.
Lyzko 30 | 7,388
4 Aug 2017 #343
On the money, jon, as nearly always:-)

Good man for standing up to these ignoramuses!!
Happy to see at least you haven't bought into that "empathy fatigue" bit from those who minimize, rationalize, even worse, RELATIVIZE, the singular monstrousness of the Holocaust.

True empathy knows no fatigue, just as real guilt recognizes no "statute of limitations", whether it's for some 90-year old erstwhile brutal camp guard at Auschwitz, or a John Gotti, "Whitey" Bolger etc. here in the States; once a career criminal, always a career criminal, change of career notwithstanding!!!
Dirk diggler 9 | 4,714
5 Aug 2017 #344
The holocaust was a monstrosity I don't think any sane person can argue otherwise. Nothing good should have come up of it but nonetheless some people have used it to line their pockets. Actually some early Zionists wanted an incident like the holocaust to occur so that in the end the Jews could get their own land - of course those were the most Machiavellian of all the early Zionists and doesn't reflect the views of more 'mainstream' Zionists at that time. What some people, such as for example myself and professor norman finkelstein (who I've met and consider one of the foremost experts on israel, the Palestine-israel conflict, antisemitisim vs antizionism, and of course the holocaust) are bothered by the fact that people especially the Hollywood types and various survivors turned authors have used the solemn memory of the holocaust to turn into the money printing machine known as 'the holocaust industry' which is the title of one of finkelsteins books.

The jews definitely deserved reparations. However some took it a bit too far. Some have even filed false claims to swiss banks. Then you have people like elie wiesel and zisblatt who were definitely holocaust survivors but then why exaggerate what really happened? Many things that were 'common knowledge' have been proven to be embellishments or outright false i.e. lampshades and gloves made of Jews skin. The holocaust was bad enough and there's no need to make up things or exaggerate because it's just more fuel for anti Semites and deniers. Even students who read night in high school and are asked to write a research paper only to find out that certain things don't quite match up may then downplay the tragedy of the holocaust and not believe what happened just because they read a book where facts were stretched.

Another thing that bothers non Jews is that despite more far slavs, gypsies, gays etc we didn't receive nearly the same exposure or reparations. In fact, holocaust is uniquely a word to describe the genocide of the Jews but yet no such word exists to describe the genocide of poles, genocide of russians and so on. Was our suffering less than that of Jews? We were in the same camps and suffered the same atrocities. In fact, more slavs died in nazi hands than Jews - although part of that is because the Jewish population was smaller than the Slavic population.

It just seems a bit unfair to a catholic pole. Please don't be offended by this - I'm not trying to downplay the suffering of the Jews or anything. Im simply saying that either everyone who suffered at the hands of Nazis should receive an equal amount of exposure and reparations or no one should receive anything. However the way it is now is that the suffering of the Jews is more important than that of slavs despite the fact that more of us died. Fortunately some Jews like norman finkelstein agree with this position and feel that the Jewish suffering has been exploited by its own people while the suffering of everyone has been totally downplayed.
Lyzko 30 | 7,388
5 Aug 2017 #345
Finkelstein, by the way, has become almost a virtual pariah in the Jewish community, not to mention harshly villified by survivors!

A tough call, Dirk. Can't say as I can blame the latter, and yet, I too, although again Jewish, feel that Holocaust suffering has become too "overmarketed", and this is the crying disgrace.
Dirk diggler 9 | 4,714
5 Aug 2017 #346

It depends in which circles. The Jewish community is very diverse in ideology ranging from the most conservative and fundamentalist to the most liberal. He is rather celebrated here as a local professor and is accepted by the local Jewish community but more so the liberal reform Jews rather than the conservative and most orthodox esp with Zionist leanings which aren't too fond of him. I'm not saying that books, movies, etc shouldn't be produced about the holocaust far from it. However it shouldn't be at the expense of the millions of others who suffered imo. The reason why is because it then makes society forget about all the other tragedies. Were at the point where when someone says 'ww2' a persons brain automatically thinks nazis, death camps, holocaust but 11 million Russian dead and nearly 3 million non Jewish poles doesn't come into thought till way later if at all...

Not much can really be done about it at this point aside from non Jews doing the same - writing books making movies and Jews saying themselves hey we weren't the only ones who suffered and died. However since the holocaust has become such a powerful geopolitical tool they don't want to. Quite frankly I can't blame them, I don't know if I would do different if I were in Jewish shoes. Its hard to relinquish or even share the power that has come of the memory of the holocaust and ww2 at large.

Hitler specifically stated prior to the glewicz false flag that all poles ought to be killed mercilessly and the nation wiped out. He didn't specify between polish jew or polish gentile. Of course the final solution was geared towards Jews but nonetheless nazi crimes were pretty much equal opportunity.

One of the main reasons I bring this up is because now Kaczynski is asking for reparations from Germany for the death and destruction that poles suffered in ww2. While poles do deserve reparations for nazi and wermacht crimes, Kaczynski is only bringing this up now for political reasons to have leverage against Merkel Germany and the eu - not for national remembrance or to help the survivors or families of survivors.
Lyzko 30 | 7,388
5 Aug 2017 #347
I have to agree with my forum colleague Tacitus however. that to what extent do nations want to bleed each other dry... of both their money along with their pride?

Once more, a tough call.
Dirk diggler 9 | 4,714
5 Aug 2017 #348
Well Kaczynski is willing to use poles suffering during ww2 and asking for reparations just now all of a sudden as a form of leverage against Merkel and e.u. quite sad honestly..

Yes true survivors and families of survivoes should get some reparations whether they were targeted for being jewish, polish, gypsy, gay etc by the nazis and wermacht. However at this point its clear that Kaczynski is only doing it for political reasons and not because he cares about survivors and their families finally getting some sort of justice.
Lyzko 30 | 7,388
5 Aug 2017 #349
Guilt trip tactics which merely serve to embitter rather than embolden the German government into helping Poland obtain her "reparations" which she demands:-)
Dirk diggler 9 | 4,714
5 Aug 2017 #350
One thing I will say though is actually the Nazis didn't do anything to my family. In fact they gave my grandparents food everyday almost and saved an uncle from a UPA squad that was literally just about to shoot him. A nazi officer stationed in the town came just in time - my uncle was already blindfolded and standing against a tree. The town and my uncle were later 'liberated' by the red army, all his property confiscated, and our family put in jail because they were kulaks meaning 'rich peasants' - having a barn and home that you built with your own hands along with some livestock was enough for a family to be arrested and everything confisdated. Anyway after some time in jail he was let out and forced to serve in the red army. Our family was transferred from Poland to Belarus to somewhere in Kazakhstan briefly to smolensk for a few years and then finally they were able to come back to the same town in poland. If anything id like to see russia give reparations for stuff like this. Although I doubt that will ever happen

They don't complain though. They don't even have any ill feelings towards the ukranians that arrived. Sure it would be nice for them to get some money as they are poorer than the rest of the family. However they're just happy they made it out alive and are together again as a family.
Lyzko 30 | 7,388
5 Aug 2017 #351
While Hitler himself dubbed all Slavs, primarily the Poles, "Untermenschen" (subhuman), he reserved his deepest, most pathological contempt for the Jews of Europe. Albeit wantonly cruel to gentile Pole and Jew alike, only the Jewish Poles were specifically slated for total annihilation.

As Hitler had complete disrespect for Christianity, the fact that the Poles were Christians, including the rest of Europe for that matter, raised the level of the Slavs ever so slightly above that of the Semites.
Dirk diggler 9 | 4,714
5 Aug 2017 #352

If the eu and Poland got along better Germany would probably be willing to toss Poland a few billion. Many Germans have a sort of generational guilt where they feel they must constantly do things for other nations to atone for their ww2 sins. They would probably do it and want to forge better relations for the future. This would work in favor for poland and Germany and hopefully the survivors and their families assuming the money actually reaches them and isn't misappropriated in the process. In this political environment its highly unlikely and its clear that kaczynskis motives to get reparations aren't pure. As a pole I find it repulsive personally the way he's going about it. Pis has some good ideas but this definitely isn't one of the..
Lyzko 30 | 7,388
5 Aug 2017 #353
You're on to something there with "generational guilt", DIrk!

Poland nonetheless continues to be thought of as a kind of backwater. This impression, although naturally false, is impregnated in the minds of older Germans especially.
Dirk diggler 9 | 4,714
5 Aug 2017 #354

Yes you're right. However initially Hitler wanted to deport the Jews to Madagascar and even Palestine but it proved too expensive. Eventually he reasoned itd be better just to kill them all I.e. final solution .
Ironside 50 | 11,056
5 Aug 2017 #355
If the eu and Poland got along better Germany would probably be willing to toss Poland a few billion.

Sure they would - in your dreams. Where have you got this idea from?lol!

Many Germans have a sort of generational guilt

That actually do not wash with the younger generation any more. From the late 60' till about middle of 90' that was kind of true for the general German populace. No more.

its clear that kaczynskis motives to get reparations aren't pure

What are you even talking about?
Dirk diggler 9 | 4,714
5 Aug 2017 #356

Not just Germans think of Poland as backwater, and it is in many places I'm not going to sugar coat it, it's western Europe as a whole. Its not just for economic or technological reasons but also societal as Poland is very conservative when compared to more progressive places like say france, holland, sweden, etc.

Also the media helps push the narrative that poles are dumb and backward. Even now there's shows like two broke girls with the typical 'dumb polak' character. Although media in general stereotypes many other nationalities and races. Its just that poles don't really care so we don't have organizations like the adl splc or adf to really defend against such things. Thats why amongst many poles there's always been a sort of an 'us and eastern Europeans vs everyone else' mentality. Pilsudzki went as far as to promote an idea of intermarum where Poland czechy Lithuania Ukraine and a bunch of other Slavic and east euro states would be united in one big union to counter more powerful nations. Wed be a sort of Yugoslavia stretching from sea to sea hence the intermarum name.
Dirk diggler 9 | 4,714
5 Aug 2017 #357

I'm referring to Kaczynski suddenly asking Germany for ww2 reparations although its clearly a political front. I support pis over po for the most part but I find this repulsive the way ww2 is being used as a political tool for poland to get the eu especially Germany off their back.

I would disagree - German youth are constantly indoctrinated with how bad Germany treated others in ww2. The more liberal politicians constantly go on tv and say that Germany must accept migrants because of what they did in ww2. Although yes, as time goes on less and less German youth will care about what happened before even their parents time.
Lyzko 30 | 7,388
5 Aug 2017 #358
Anyone who claims that Poles and/or Poland are dumb, backward etc. ought to look at Poland's sometimes unsung accomplishments, not only Europe's largest anti-Nazi resistance movement (greater even than Denmark or Norway, and second only to France!), but her notable scientists, mathematicians, and musicians.

I'm with Ted Knight aka Kaczynski who once on the Carson Show in the '60's responded to a fellow guest who offered a 'light-hearted' Polish joke with "Oh, great! Now tell it to us in Polish."

Ironside 50 | 11,056
5 Aug 2017 #359
I'm referring to Kaczynski suddenly asking Germany for ww2 reparations although its clearly a political front.

It is not sudden. That idea has been circulating for quite a while. Even if that is a political front - what of it? It is not made issue or a lie.
Lyzko 30 | 7,388
5 Aug 2017 #360
Right, Ironside! If truth be told, the Poles, the Russians, yes, American Jews, the Israelis, have been wanting to exact reparations from Germany since at the outset of the '50's, and I don't think that's too much of an exaggeration either:-)

Small wonder that PEGIDA, AfD, Hoecke, Gedeon along with a small group of German historians led by among others Nolte and Joachim Fest, have maintained for years that Germany is being bled dry financially. Martin Walser chose an unfortunate analogy when some years back now, he referred to Auschwitz as a "moral cudgel", used to batter German sympathies and imbued feelings of guilt.

Poland is far from alone in her demands.

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