The smallest Poland ever?

Necessity? Poland doesn't need Western Ukraine, with its many problems. Even if you walk from Medyka to Shegyni, you can see the vast difference in living standards. Heck, Germany struggled to integrate East Germany - what hope does Poland have?

The area has absolutely nothing to offer Poland except memories.


What kind of peaceful solution do you envisage the Ukrainians willingly giving up their heartland (don't forget - the L'viv oblast is the home of Ukrainian nationalism and identity) to Poland?

About the only situation I can imagine is when Ukraine breaks into two and the Western part approaches Poland. But that's not going to happen - most Ukrainians would rather starve than give up their country.


I imagine, seeing as they consider L'viv to be the home of Ukrainan culture, that they would fight to the last man to keep the territory Ukrainian. They struggled for so long and so hard for it - wouldn't it just be best to buy everything there rather than trying to forcibly annex the territory?

Sure, and I have never said differently, first things first , but then there would be time for fixing few lose ends, we can as well start consider that as an option.


Lithuanian are a small fish, I don't say that we should get Wilno, only if they will continue discriminate against Poles.


Not far enough, and you are jumping at shadows.


What culture?.....anyhow Ukraine has Kiev.

You can't compare (natural) migration in pre-nationalistic times and ethnic cleansing in the 20th century. The former was often characterised by a fusion of old an new culture (England, Spain), ethnic cleansings in the 20th century often came along with iconoclasm, i.e. the destruction of symbols of the former culture. Before the rise of nationalism symbols of a nation weren't that important to the people.

And by these standards Lviv is in better hands than Wroclaw. Mickiewicz and Kiliński are still on their pedestals, while Eichendorff and Svarez are gone. And while Poles can visit Polish graveyards in Lviv Germans can't do the same in Wroclaw.

@Ironside - you're dodging my quesion - how many children do you have? Necessity, man, necessity! :)


Many of those migrations were not as "natural" as you would like to think, and they also involved
conquest and what we would call today "ethnic cleansing".


That's probably caused by the fact that Poles didn't slaughter 6 million Ukrainians, and didn't murder
their women and children in concentration camps. The level of hatred towards Germans, for the atrocities
that they commited against Polish civilians, was so high that I can't really blame Poles that after the war
most traces of German presence in Wrocław, and other former German cities, were removed.
I'm not saying it was a right thing to do - I'm only saying that I understand the emotions behind it.

But what about the United States - you haven't answered that? Are Florida, California and other
American states "not in good hands"? Surely, you wouldn't call that migration "natural", and it surely
did involve what some people might call ethnic cleansings.

Kyiv is more Russian. The language of the streets there is Russian, not Ukrainian.

As for "what culture", perhaps you could aquaint yourself with the works of Taras Shevchenko to start with?


Wait, are there really no German graveyards in Wroclaw?

wroclawzwyboru.blox.pl/2008/11/Pamietajcie-o-cmentarzach-ktorych-nie-ma.html

I don't think that was the reason...it was a process over several years...the last wave had to leave in 1950 as the worst was already over.

It points more to the claiming of these "re-gained" territories as it was told from then on in the media...it was "pure and eternal polish territories which had been rightfully returned" and so on, the whole yadda yadda.

For that it was more convenient to erase all traces of century old evidence of german history as not to interfere with that new teaching of history.

The Ukrainians didn't feel such a need it seems...

We have to give credit to the Poles that they never murdered any Germans during the expulsions unlike the Czechs and even more the Serbs who really proceeded to massacres.

So, it was five years after Polish families were slaughtered by Germans - the survivors were thinking that
their children, for example, would have been 6, 11 or 18 years old then, if it hadn't been for those bloody
murdering animals - Germans. Do you think 5 years was enough for the hatred to fade? I don't think so.

The government propaganda was a minor factor - it was the memories of their beloved ones, slaughtered
like animals (and considered as such) by Germans, that caused Poles to remove every trace of German
presence.

There are alot of Poles downtalking the german presence in these lands even today, discussing any german history there as short and insignificant, fully trodding the propaganda line they were taught for decades.

As if Germans had been only a short, unhappy character for these polish only lands.
It's actual mainstream in Poland to see it that way...

That has nothing to do with the hate against german conquerors from 70 years back... That is the wish for greater Poland, not more, not less...only Lwow and co are still missing.

They would go to war if there were a chance!

I don't see these people hating Germans today for gaining these lands and getting a really homogenous population. Today they are quite glad about it and tell it that way.

It's shocking but true...

Luckily, they are a tiny minority and they will never have any power in Poland.

Well...I don't remember any Poles here admitting freely from the start the big part that the Germans played in these now polish lands...as if admitting would make it less polish again...doesn't seem such a minority to me...

Do you remember the hot fights about this topic here on PF...my oh my :)

....

Wow.

Not for me to judge, but just - wow.

By the way Torq - is there an official name these days for the Recovered Territories? I've been using "Western and Northern Territories", but I'm not sure if this is right?

I was talking about those who are willing to start a war, not those who were taught
from old books at school ;)


They are usually just referred to as Ziemie Odzyskane as a whole, in historical context,
but most of the time they're just referred to with their Polish names: Pomorze, Pomorze Zachodnie,
Ziemia Lubuska and Dolny Śląsk.

What does mean? *looks curious*

It means die Wiedergewonnenen Gebiete, or in other words die altangestammten Gebiete der Piasten :)

Also still "re-gained territories"? Well...not much changed then...

Well, basically, these are regained lands for us, just like they are lost lands for you.
It depends on the point of view. How do you suggest we should call them?

No, I'm simply not answering personal questions on the Internet.


Sure they do, plenty.


If Kiev is Russian there is no future for Ukrainians.


I see that you are expert on Ukraine, well, well ...... where he was born - check.
Ще як були ми козаками,

А унії не чуть було,

Отам-то весело жилось!

Братались з вольними ляхами,

Пишались вольними степами,

В садах кохалися, цвіли,

Неначе лілії, дівчата.

Пишалася синами мати,

Синами вольними... Росли,

Lebensraum?

Riiiiiiiiight. You better think about having children, Ironside. It is a REAL necessity for Poland,
not some conquest fantasies.


Naaah - bad connotations.

And that's the key to the whole issue. Change the town names, dig up the gravestones, and hope the past will go away.

Fair enough. But this doesn't explain destructions in the 70s and even 80s and the general lack of care even today. Monumens can also be reconstructed. I know Poland pretty well, and the difference between the traditional Polish lands and the so called "recovered territories" is striking. The cultural uprooting is evident.


You compare a tribal society without much cultural achievements with a complex high culture?

70s and 80s? I would say that not many German monuments would have survived by then.
Most of them were destroyed shortly after the war. Oh, well - maybe there were such cases,
but I wasn't aware of that.


Which has probably more to do with the lack of funds than any old hatred towards the Germans.


Of course they can, but in the current political climate, with Frau Steinbach and Herr Pawelka
trying to stir things, reconstructing the monument of Carl Gottlieb Svarez in Wrocław, for example,
seems highly unlikely.


You may know Poland well, but are you aware of the fact that the inhabitants of Szczecin (almost
100% Polish city today), in the poll about the greatest representatives in their city's history,
voted for two German burgermeisters (they took 2nd and 3rd place)? Poles are incredibly forgiving
and willing to reconcilliate with Germans - sometimes I get the impression that they want it more than
the Germans themselves (I'm not talking about the government, but about ordinary German citizens).


Why not? Is ethnic cleansing less condemnable if it is commited on a tribal society than when it is
done to a more advanced culture?

That's an argument...


Hey...I'm as ordinary as we get! ;)

Why don`t you mention the first Poland, 1000 years ago?

Compare:
990-1018

2011

I think that calling the western lands "odzyskane" (recovered) and the eastern lands "utracone" (lost) is too pretentious, Torq. It basically suggest that the ultimate right to the lands are in Poland, which is not true. Kievan Rus had Przemysl before Poland, but we don't call it "lost lands". Why France doesn't call Warsaw Duchy "lost territories" or Austria doesn't mention Poland as something lost. Call it its name: Galicia, Silesia, Wolyn, Vilnius, Grodno etc. This is, IMHO, more appropriate, what you think? Otherwise, it raises too much unnecessary tension.


Enlighten me, Ironside, with your immense intelligence where Taras Shevchenko was born. But before you answer that question remind me where Adam Mickiewicz, an icon of Polish literature was born. I hope it will help to straighten your narrow thinking process a bit.


Great point, don't you agree? Read every word carefully.


In what way? Just because a significant part of its population speaks Russian? Majority of those are proud Ukrainians who due to Russification speak Russian. But to say that they are Russians is wrong. It is the same as to say that Austrians are Germans and vice versa just because they speak the same language. There is different mentality, culture, history.

Not "utracone" but "tymczasowo utracone" and I think the best term is "occupied territories".


No,I don't think so.It raises awerness among Poles that we still have some land in the East which is now occupied by Belarussians,Lithuanians and Ukrainians but which we have to recover at some point.

How? :):):)


How often has your memory failed you recently? :):):)

What do you mean how?Give me the 10th Armored Cavalry Brigade and a squadron of Su 22's and I will take Wilno tomorrow with a bunch of volunteers.