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Do Poles really blame Britain for Poland becoming Communist after the war?


Blue Izzie 1 | 2
17 Oct 2011 #1
I have heard on and off that Poles blame Britain and Churchill for Poland being Communist after the war, because Britain didn't stand up to Stalin at the Yalta conference.

I am honestly not trying to be offensive, but the only way to save Poland would have been another World War, and there was no way that Britain could have taken on Russia after the Second World War. Furthermore, Churchill was the only one who pushed for free elections in Poland, and Stalin did promise there would be free elections in Poland.

What did Poland expect Britain to do? I mean, if anyone should be in the firing line, surely it should be the USA -- they were the ones with all the money and the power. The Second World War broke Britain, and it's been broken ever since.

Again, I mean this in no way offensively, I really am just curious as to what course of action people think Britain could have taken to save Poland from being Communist.
peterweg 37 | 2,321
17 Oct 2011 #2
The communist persuaded the Poles that it was the West's fault that the communist occupied them. Neat trick eh?
AlexTheGreat - | 12
17 Oct 2011 #3
It's not rare to hear Poles blame it on Jews...
sascha 1 | 826
17 Oct 2011 #4
is that maybe ur equasion: poles=antisemitism? just curious?
AlexTheGreat - | 12
17 Oct 2011 #5
In order for that equation to be true, 100% of Poles would have to be antisemites. While that is not true, the percentage is still quite high.
peter_olsztyn 6 | 1,098
17 Oct 2011 #6
that Poles blame Britain and Churchill for Poland being Communist after the war

No, Poles blame Nazis for giving opportunity and alowing commies to enter Central Europe.
pawian 173 | 12,557
17 Oct 2011 #7
=Blue Izzie]
that Poles blame Britain
and Churchill
for Poland being Communist after the war,
because Britain didn't stand up to Stalin
at the Yalta conference.

True.
True.
True.
True.
True.

But it is quite understandable. Poland meant nothing to Churchill. When he grew up, Poland didn`t exist (partitions) and didn`t matter. In result, he didn`t feel any moral obligation to help her later on.
OP Blue Izzie 1 | 2
17 Oct 2011 #8
Poland meant nothing to Churchill. When he grew up, Poland didn`t exist (partitions) and didn`t matter. In result, he didn`t feel any moral obligation to help her later on.

I don't think it is so much a case of Poland meaning nothing to Churchill because it didn't exist while he was growing up; it meant nothing to Churchill because he was not Polish, but English, and had a moral obligation to his own people. To truly stand up to Russia over Poland would have meant another war, one which Britain could not possibly have won, and in which god knows how many Britons would have died. Plus, he did argue for free elections in Poland at the Yalta conference.

I am completely aware of the terrible suffering Poland underwent both during the war and after, but a leader has a moral obligation to their own people; imo, it is unfair to expect Britain to have fought another war (of which they had no hope of winning), and sent so many to their deaths, for the protection of another nation.

peter_olsztyn, thank you for your reply; it is nice to know that not all Poles feel this way about Britain. :)
isthatu2 4 | 2,704
18 Oct 2011 #9
The communist persuaded the Poles that it was the West's fault that the communist occupied them. Neat trick eh?

Seconded.
BTW
hasnt this topic been done to death already?
PWEI 3 | 612
18 Oct 2011 #10
Seconded.

Thirded.

But one should point out that the trick was first tried by the Nazis.
Mr Grunwald 23 | 1,661
18 Oct 2011 #11
I really am just curious as to what course of action people think Britain could have taken to save Poland from being Communist.

Well
1. Great Britain bluffed using Poland yet Poland couldn't bluff and use Great Britain like they would have wanted to
2. Used Polish troops more proportionally then Poland used British troops (mathematics how cynical I know)
3. Having same/tiny more help from "enemies" then from Great Britain
4. No sense of gratitude towards Poland
5. Declaring war on Nazi Germany but, not on the Soviet Union (both attacked Poland)
6. Minimizing their war effort to naval/air warfare in Europe in the early stages
7. Finding out from the Soviets that their going to lose half their territory and gain new lands in eastern parts of Germany and not from Great Britain/U.S.A at the same time hearing they agreed to it, and then told not to speak about it to their own populace

8. Having Poland's leader assassinated (suspicions only so far)
9. Trying to expel Polish soldiers that served in the British armed forces after the war ended or get rid of them.
10. Commie propaganda painting UK very badly.

Do you want me to go on?
There are tons of reasons, more about feelings and how Great Britain behaved then what it actually helped with.
hague1cmaeron 14 | 1,377
18 Oct 2011 #12
I think that most Poles do not. As you said if there is anyone to blame it would be the US, since they had the bomb before the Soviets acquired one-so they could demand anything from the Soviets, and the Soviets wouldn't be able to refuse them.
Mr Grunwald 23 | 1,661
18 Oct 2011 #13
and the Soviets wouldn't be able to refuse them.

They actually did play it (later) and Stalin was "Oh? How nice :)" They got buffled since they didn't know Stalin was a great poker player and had/building his own bomb

They could have pushed the "Isn't a little weird you Soviets want the same/almost the same area Poland had before you took it in 1939? Punishing Poland for what? Fighting the Nazi's when you stabbed her?"
Marek11111 9 | 816
18 Oct 2011 #14
I blame Britain and U.S. for Poland becoming communist. But the greatest blame is British and French for not holding their part in agreement to attack Germany in September 1939 if they have done this Russia would never invaded Poland and Germany would be defeated by year end of 1939 and millions of people would have lived.
Mr Grunwald 23 | 1,661
18 Oct 2011 #15
But the greatest blame is British and French for not holding their part in agreement to attack Germany in September 1939

Their greatest blame was deceiving Poland. France had no capacity to attack Germany and win, if they did they would had done it. Having low morale and plenty of ww1 kind of airplanes does no good vs morale boosted with a bit of experienced German troops...
isthatu2 4 | 2,704
18 Oct 2011 #16
2. Used Polish troops more proportionally then Poland used British troops

Bollox, our entire nation went to war...........

4. No sense of gratitude towards Poland

For what?

6. Minimizing their war effort to naval/air warfare in Europe in the early stages

Have you even the tiniest concept of mobilising an army,transporting it across the ocean into another soverign country ( France was the senior partner, the only country with a land force in Europe during the 3 and a bit weeks Poland held out) and then readying it for conflict? Do you think that could be done in under a month even these days?

8. Having Poland's leader assassinated

Oh, fcuk off loon, it was a plane crash,pure and simple, sh!t happens in war, especially when you load a bunch of pissed men and their baggage haphazardly in a Bomber and then take off over the sea....

9. Trying to expel Polish soldiers that served in the British armed forces after the war ended or get rid of them.

again, utter bollox. ALL HM Forces were being De Mobbed, why should a bunch of foreginers be kept on when Britons were being cashiered from the Forces?

Yes, Poles,surprise surprise were encouraged to return to Poland after the war........FFS..........but no one was forced.
PWEI 3 | 612
18 Oct 2011 #17
Yes, Poles,surprise surprise were encouraged to return to Poland after the war........FFS..........but no one was forced.

Indeed. And some of those Poles live to this very day at the expense of the British taxpayer.
Mr Grunwald 23 | 1,661
18 Oct 2011 #18
Bollox, our entire nation went to war...........

Oh right the Polish government controlled the British army and the British war effort... right... While Britain controlled... what exactly?

For what?

Your question is my answer

Have you even the tiniest concept of mobilising an army,transporting it across the ocean into another soverign country ( France was the senior partner, the only country with a land force in Europe during the 3 and a bit weeks Poland held out) and then readying it for conflict? Do you think that could be done in under a month even these days?

I do have an concept of it, my list isn't my blame Britain list. it's a list of what Poles then + now felt what Britain did. Feelings quite often are not based on logic

Oh, fcuk off loon

Nice to meet you too my name is Mr. Grunwald

it was a plane crash,pure and simple, sh!t happens in war, especially when you load a bunch of pissed men and their baggage haphazardly in a Bomber and then take off over the sea....

After having seen an NKVD agent nearby on a British controlled airport and a Czech pilot
If something did happen it would been more logical to blame the Soviets for it, meaning perfect situation for such an attempt from the British side (no proofs yet but, it's still in the list sorry, I am not master of Poland to make them follow my opinion :))

again, utter bollox

Last time I checked it did happen, and ive read how ex-servicemen complained about behavior from some groups of people

ALL HM Forces were being De Mobbed, why should a bunch of foreginers be kept on when Britons were being cashiered from the Forces?

That's from an economical point of view

Yes, Poles,surprise surprise were encouraged to return to Poland after the war........FFS..........but no one was forced.

Thank God they weren't forced! How would the Poles look at that? Having Poles fight for them and then just drop em into a firing squad!

They were encouraged to leave Great Britain and not to settle in the commonwealth what so ever.

Indeed. And some of those Poles live to this very day at the expense of the British taxpayer.

I know, how horrible
PWEI 3 | 612
18 Oct 2011 #19
I know, how horrible

Not really. But it would be nice if Poles could stop lying about what happened to their countrymen at the end of the war. Either that or start paying the bills for their countrymen's accommodation.

Hundreds of thousands of Polish servicemen were given British citizenship after the war and tens of thousands of their dependents were brought to the UK after the war. Why were those things done if Britain wanted shot of the Poles?
Mr Grunwald 23 | 1,661
18 Oct 2011 #20
Not really

I would like to know how you would have felt if Modern day Russia invaded Poland and after the time you spent in Poland you would volunteer to fight Russian troops on any soil on the earth if necessary! Then after fighting Russians in several years the host country won with Russia but, you could never return back to Poland because an political party had seized control over Poland proclaiming that the type of people being outside the country had no place in the "new Poland" and knowing you would get shot getting back, and if you had any family or friends that you knew were shot/imprisoned/sent off to world outskirts.

I would like to know if that wouldn't be horrible for you to live abroad in a country, which had THAT country's citizens pay your retirement and not Poland's.

But it would be nice if Poles could stop lying about what happened to their countrymen at the end of the war.

I can tell you my family story if you want in PM

Either that or start paying the bills for their countrymen's accommodation.

Could you clarify it a bit more, I am not so sure what your talking about

Hundreds of thousands of Polish servicemen were given British citizenship after the war and tens of thousands of their dependents were brought to the UK after the war. Why were those things done if Britain wanted shot of the Poles?

That was done after the British politicians had concluded that the Poles that didn't go back to their new "country" nor emigrated elsewhere couldn't be sitting around doing nothing.
PWEI 3 | 612
18 Oct 2011 #21
Could you clarify it a bit more, I am not so sure what your talking about

It's very simple: some Polish ex-servicemen are still living at the expense of the British taxpayer, where they have lived since they left the Polish armed forces.
Mr Grunwald 23 | 1,661
18 Oct 2011 #22
Well it's only logical that they do that, but I agree with you that in a perfect world they should had be getting them from Polish taxpayers instead. But history went the other way then we would want it to
isthatu2 4 | 2,704
18 Oct 2011 #23
an political party had seized control over Poland proclaiming that the type of people being outside the country had no place in the "new Poland" and knowing you would get shot getting back

Again, more hairy dangly male genitals...................
Ship loads of " London" Poles did go back to Poland on,erm,ships and planes specially chartered. Do you really think they all went back expecting a nagant bullet in the brain?
Mr Grunwald 23 | 1,661
18 Oct 2011 #24
Ship loads of " London" Poles did go back to Poland on,erm,ships and planes specially chartered.

if by saying loads you mean max 1/3 then yeah

Do you really think they all went back expecting a nagant bullet in the brain?

Most of them yeah, but their family was important so they tried to either check out if their alive or get them out of there while they still could. lucky for most of them who weren't politically active they only had a worse life then most citizens. If politically active they got to jail/shot
isthatu2 4 | 2,704
18 Oct 2011 #25
Sorry, how does one third of a ship sail ?
JonnyM 11 | 2,620
18 Oct 2011 #26
if by saying loads you mean max 1/3 then yeah

Around 50% stayed, 50% returned.
Mr Grunwald 23 | 1,661
18 Oct 2011 #27
Sorry, how does one third of a ship sail ?

I am so sorry my level of English is quite bad. I meant that 1/3 of the Poles that were ex-servicemen went back to "Poland".

The rest made themselves go elsewhere or stayed in Britain

Around 50% stayed, 50% returned.

Really? Some weird sources my books did have then, telling me how concerned the British politicians were that only 1/3 went back
JonnyM 11 | 2,620
18 Oct 2011 #28
Some weird sources my books did have then

Evidently.
peterweg 37 | 2,321
18 Oct 2011 #30
Their greatest blame was deceiving Poland. France had no capacity to attack Germany and win, if they did they would had done it. Having low morale and plenty of ww1 kind of airplanes does no good vs morale boosted with a bit of experienced German troops...

So basically deceived themselves in signing a pact that it would be of any use. Even today, with modern transport the UK would be very hard pushed to defend Poland. Even after Poland has moved closer and shrunk. The current NATO plan is for a couple of thousand, lightly armoured, British troops who would probably arrive on the third day of an invasion.

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