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The Pogrom on Jews at Eishyshok (Ejszyszki) in Poland


Harry
10 Jun 2010 #31
Is there actually any point to this thread? Other than to prove yet again that some Jews are liars. Just as some Poles are liars.
OP 1jola 14 | 1,879
10 Jun 2010 #32
How many other lies are out there?

The Ejszyszki "pogrom" is one of them. I'll give the details when have more time.

Is there actually any point to this thread?

It is not to prove that some Jews are liars; that is obvious. It is more to demonstrate that lies are accepted in the mainstream as historical truths, and they persist, even to ridilulous proportions. For fifty years you couldn't even talk about it so perhaps it is time to straighen a few things out.

Notice that pointing out these lies gets one the racist and anti-Semite label. Most people are deathly affraid of telling the truth. Why is that?
MareGaea 29 | 2,752
10 Jun 2010 #33
Here you attack polish people and our history, and then you attack europeans for trying to keep their culture and protect their reputation, while you bang on about the jewish fate and attack anyone who tries to put things in perspective. (Has another view). You really have it all figured out.

That's funny you say that. Actually very funny. Because the thing you accuse me of is exactly what those who "have another point of view" do to ppl who don't agree to them or criticize certain segments of Polish history. And there are, as far as I can see, a few points there. But somebody says that Poles yet have to come to terms with their own history, so that may be forgiven.

I wouldn't think you would manage to fit funny and ironic in such texts, but maybe all this is a game to you. Just to fekk with other people. At least your are succefull in that aspect.

It is entertaining, yes, but the way you infuriate yourself is saying sth as well. I never just "fekk" with somebody. Just because I don't share your views and point you at many shortcomings of your arguments, doesn't mean that I try to "fekk" with you or anybody else. Au contraire. That's the point of a healthy debate anyway. But you want everybody to just sit there and nod in agreement to what you say about the holy Polish state and its history. Welcome to the modern world, my boy, this is what's happening. We don't live 100 years ago anymore. But I would suggest you learn sth about sarcasm before you start jumping on and off the roof again.

Here you attack polish people and our history, and then you attack europeans for trying to keep their culture and protect their reputation, while you bang on about the jewish fate and attack anyone who tries to put things in perspective.

I assume with "reputation" you mean the Polish reputation? Where do I exactly say that Poles should lose their culture? Introducing non-European immigrants by far does not imply the giving up of your own culture. According to you I do a lot of attacking. But what you consider an attack is just a different opinion. Guess you contradict yourself once more (and that in one single post! Amazing.)

Nobody made the movie Katyn, until the russians finally opened the archives. So now they have to rewrite the history books. How many other lies are out there?

But that is still no explanation for your earlier remark that the Jews committed the crime of Katyn.

Too bad you only stir sh*t up, and make people upset. About your sarcasm, well, I know personally that people on "the left" like to use violence on their opponents, and since I caught you on it, you protect yourself by saying it wasn't what you really meant, but you know what, I think you did mean it.

You don't know me at all, my boy. Not at all. Guess I am too smart for you. It's a sad thing that it seems that Right Wing is on the rise again. We've seen in the 30's and the 40's what the Right can lead to. Amazingly the Right Wing accuses now the Left Wing of their own practices. Yes, the Soviet Union was Left Wing, but only in NAME. And everybody knows that extreme left is not that very different van extreme right. Fortunately there is a lot in between them and I don't want any extremism, but centre-left would definitively be the best option for everybody. Now pls, do yourself a favour and don't get yourself in more trouble by contradicting yourself further and further.

Most people are deathly affraid of telling the truth. Why is that?

Isn't that the same with some Poles? I remember the reactions to the Kielce Pogrom, Jan T Gross and plenty of other instances. But funny how your truth always ends up being favourable for the Poles and not so favourable for other groups, usually the Jews. It's really time that some Poles like yourself come to terms with their own history. Most of the Polish history is good, but they have to learn to accept that there were less good periods and incidents as well, just like in any other country's history. Mind you, I do the same with bad periods and incidents of Dutch history.

>^..^<

M-G (Dariusz is ok, he is just young and needs a little guidance every now and then, if he gets such guidance, he will do fine)
nott 3 | 594
10 Jun 2010 #34
nott:
NKVD sent some Poles to Siberia, after sentencing them by the NKVD tribunal, and you call it 'proven'?

Yet again, I base myself on the material that is handed over.

Seems a bit naive, as said by a historian? Sources are to be first evaluated as to their reliability. NKVD is not exactly famous for its adherence to hard-core truth.

You don't know as well as I don't know if these documents are forgeries or not.

I'd say they are 100% genuine. Documenting NKVD sending some Poles to Siberia, after accusing them of and sentencing them for atrocities committed on Jews.
OP 1jola 14 | 1,879
10 Jun 2010 #35
Guess I am too smart for you.

How pathetic.
Rogalski 5 | 94
10 Jun 2010 #36
I'll give the details when have more time

Instead of talking in riddles, just spit out what you want to say, instead of playing these manipulative games.
OP 1jola 14 | 1,879
10 Jun 2010 #37
I'm not going to spit out anything, and I am not at your disposal. When I have access to my notes I will post them. I hope that is OK for you.
Rogalski 5 | 94
10 Jun 2010 #38
When I have access to my notes I will post them.

I'll look forward to the silence in the meantime then.
nott 3 | 594
10 Jun 2010 #39
Agreed, that the NKVD is not known for that.

So 'proven' is not quite a proper word to use here, in the circumstances? Sometimes I just like things to be put down in a rather blunt matter, please indulge me.
MareGaea 29 | 2,752
10 Jun 2010 #40
Perhaps written too hasty indeed, was at work. Focus was more on the documented part anyway.

>^..^<

M-G (nuff said)
Stu 12 | 522
10 Jun 2010 #41
stupid thing to do in this case if you continue.

So what do you want to do, huh?

our history

Please, don't think Polish history is your history. Polish people have guts, have honour, something which can't be said of you.

Exaclty what M-G says, one Jewish person does something wrong and then all Jews are bad. You wanna know how many Polish people do things wrong in the Netherlands? Or how many drunken a$$holes I encounter every weekend in Wroclaw? So according to the theories of these simple-minds it means that EVERY Pole is a drunken, stealing, cheating, swan eating, fish poaching Neanderthal. It's not me who is saying this ... it's the logical conclusion one has to draw when listening to these suckers like Jolanda.

And Jolanda, please stop pretending you are Polish. It just sounds stupid. It's like I would say I am Polish because I am married to one. You better don't use "us", "our(s)" and "we" ... it's pathetic.
nott 3 | 594
10 Jun 2010 #42
I suspect some difference of opinions here...

We've seen in the 30's and the 40's what the Right can lead to. Amazingly the Right Wing accuses now the Left Wing of their own practices. Yes, the Soviet Union was Left Wing, but only in NAME.

I don't quite get you here... 30ies and 40ies?

1. Nationalisation of big industry.
2. Central regulation of economy, 5-year production plans allowing small businesses only to operate 'freely' in the regulated economy. Food prescription.
3. Nationalisation of land and creating government owned huge 'farms'.
4. Banning all trade unions, except for those controlled by the government
5. Suppressing free speech, and overwhelming, populist, dumbing propaganda
6. Government-controlled mass youth organisations aimed at creating a new, better citizen. Used to dig potatoes on the mentioned farms. While singing patriotic songs.
7. Brutal persecution of religion.
8. Bright and happy future for everybody, following temporary difficulties and necessary sacrifices under the enlightened leadership of the only Party, following then only true ideology. Said difficulties being instigated by the treacherous and mean enemy.

9. Strong Marxist sympathies, including famous Marx's antisemitism. Kinda obvious, so I forgot.
9. Red flag with a funny logo. 'Cos this is worker's blood'.

Where is the Right in the above?

11. National Socialistic German Worker's Party

oh fvck. Sorry. You're right. Sorry for wasting tour time.

Yes, the Soviet Union was Left Wing, but only in NAME.

Um, I am a slow reader. So the Soviets were the Right, exactly like the Nazi. Left only in name. But, just a supposition, couldn't it all be based on the irrefutable truth that Right is Bad, and Left is Good? Stalin is the Right, Mao is the Right, Ho Shi Minh is the Right, and all of them blatantly lie about being Left. Typical rightist tactics, like. Bloody liars.

MG, sorry to disillusion you, left is bad. Left is wrong. The Left is not bearded intellectuals with flowers in their hairs, the Left is Trocki, who, unlike Stalin, planned Gulag for the whole world. The Left is Pol Pot, who managed to murder 20% of his own nation in some 5 years, applying nothing more technically advanced than a simple hoe, and enslaved the rest in a nightmarish manner. The Left is Mugabe, who converted the Bread Basket of Africa into a land of starvation. And strange as it seems, the Nazi have much much much more of the Left in them than of the Right, despite the common misconception, and apart from inclination to genocide. Unlike Fascists, who were a bizarre eclectic bunch. Hitler hated Soviets, Stalin hated Maoists, Trocki hated Stalin, so what.

Isn't that the same with some Poles? I remember the reactions to the Kielce Pogrom

You didn't read that Haaretz article between lines, did you?

Jan T Gross and plenty of other instances.

Gross stated with authority that 1600 Jews were burned. My reaction was 'Fkn hell, that WAS sumtin, fvck... errm, just a minute...' 1600 people crammed in a typical Polish village barn? Make it twice as big, and still you have to pack them in layers. What kind of opinion did I form about Gross, what do you think?

And other instances.

---

Your statements were used to prove this and that. If they are wrong, then you have no proof for this and that, then possibly this and that is not quite true. What do you think, again?

=======================================

Perhaps written too hasty indeed, was at work. Focus was more on the documented part anyway.

well, what does it change, that focus? Documented by NKVD. You mean they lied in the face, but what they wrote was pure truth? Slightly biased, maybe? Just a tad?

I guess I might be starting to vaguely suspect where that my idiosyncrasy about being blunt comes from...
Sire Brenshar 1 | 61
11 Jun 2010 #43
And Jolanda, please stop pretending you are Polish. It just sounds stupid. It's like I would say I am Polish because I am married to one. You better don't use "us", "our(s)" and "we" ... it's pathetic.

Careful there, Copernicus considered himself Polish but I don't see you scolding him for having considered that, even though he was technically an ethnic German.

I consider myself polish, even if I was brought up 100% in Canada, simply because I speak polish (perhaps not as well as I would want) and know it's history very well (probably better than most Poles), and because I'm proud of being Polish, and there is nothing you can say or write that could change the way i feel or the what I consider myself to be.

(nothing personal, this actually goes to all other PF posters who say what you have just said)
MediaWatch 10 | 945
11 Jun 2010 #44
The matter is documented, hence proven. What are these Polis American groups arguing about? It's written down in contemporary documents, the perpetrators have been arrested and sent to Siberia. Case closed.

The NKVD arrested the perpetrators

Well if New York Times has one of their anti-Polish Bigots write an article bashing Poles with "anti-semitism this" and "anti-semitism that" TAKEN FROM DOCUMENTATION from the SOVIET UNION and its NKVD, well we all know IT MUST BE TRUE and not exagerrated one bit! LOL!!!!!!!!

No wonder the Racist Liberal Jewish Supremacist New York Times was so in love with Joseph Stalin and the Soviet Union.

No wonder the New York Times VICIOUSLY ATTACKED AND SLANDERED innocent Ukrainians and other anti-Communists who reported on the TRUTH that the Soviets and Stalin were mass murdering many millions of Ukrainians and other East Europeans.

The Communist New York Times WAS IN BED basically with Stalin's Soviet Union ideologically speaking. The New York Times knew Lefty-Jews were very active in Stalins Soviet Union so therefore the Soviet Union is BLAMELESS in the sick communist minds of the Lefty-Jewish New York Times. The same thing with Media Bigots like Yaffy Eliach or Richard Cohen of the Washington Post.

The answer to all of these stories of anti-semitism in Eastern Europe is because of the Jewish anti-East European Racism of Communist Jews towards East Europeans. Communist Jews were very active in persecuting and killing East Europeans. Sending them to Gulag death camps.

But for some reason the New York Times Bigots and Bigots like Richard Cohen of the Washington Post IGNORE stories like this:

Stalin's Jews

ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3342999,00.html

This story pretty much explains why there was anti-semitism in Eastern Europe.

Anti-Polish Bigot Yaffy Eliach should try reading it also
Rogalski 5 | 94
11 Jun 2010 #45
OK mystery solved.

Jolanda has apparently got hold of a copy of Ejszyszki Pogrom którego nie było by Marek Chodakiewicz. That s/he needs time to get "access" to his/her "notes" probably refers to translating the most damning sections of the book into intelligible English.

What Jolanda fails to point out, however, is Chodakiewicz is largely discredited by his Polish colleagues:

"Chodakiewicz's motivations seem less sanguine, and the fact that his wild assertions have received official endorsement is most disturbing. This is especially so because his book (even before it was translated) was trashed by many of his colleagues in Poland, including highly regarded authorities in the field. Those scholars severely chastised the unprofessional way in which Chodakiewicz used sources."

See haaretz.com/print-edition/opinion/whoever-controls-the-past -1.246397 for further details.

(Even though the report is balanced, it will be discredited as "Zionist" or even "Jewish" and dismissed by the intellectually dishonest).

However, it's important that the full background of this particular post, instead of engaging in Jolanda's game of half-truths, hence why I am posting this information here.

I wish to acknowlege the assistance of Empik in stocking the book on their shelves and for allowing me to put two and two together and work out Jola's little game ... :-) S/he really will do anything to push forward his/her "right" to be blazenly anti-semitic and racist, won't s/he?
ender 5 | 398
11 Jun 2010 #46
1jola nice one. Let them cook bit longer. And thank you for for showing PF Jews with issue they are like luk from WP. Problem is, MG can edit some of his unquoted posts.

Thank you very much
OP 1jola 14 | 1,879
11 Jun 2010 #47
I hope Rogalski bought the book and will read it. I'll get back to his post, but I must watch a DeFunes film. Even we rabid anti-Semites have a sense of humor.
Rogalski 5 | 94
11 Jun 2010 #48
1jola nice one. Let them cook bit longer. And thank you for for showing PF Jews with issue they are like luk from WP. Problem is, MG can edit some of his unquoted posts.

Can we have this in coherent English?

I hope Rogalski bought the book and will read it

I'm waiting for your summary with bated breath - no point wasting money on a discredited historian. Sorry if I spoiled the surprise and outed you before you were ready.
Ironside 50 | 11,489
11 Jun 2010 #49
That well-documented pogrom was not an isolated incident but an organized campaign to complete the Nazi ''final solution of the Jewish problem in Poland,'' planned during the war by the anti-Semitic underground Polish Home Army and the national armed forces. The Home Army received arms and money from the Polish government in exile in London.

Well, I don't now much about Eihyshok incident, but whoever support above claims is lying.
I know enough about AK and situation during WWII to state with absolute certainty that is utter rubbish.

quote=Rogalski]no point wasting money on a discredited historian. [/quote]
discredited by whom?
What about Gross?
Rogalski 5 | 94
11 Jun 2010 #50
discredited by whom?

By other Poles, such as Pankowski (human rights activist), historians Andrzej Rzeplinski and Andrzej Jbikowski; by other non-Polish historians such as Polonsky and Michlic; by Michael Berenbaum, former director of research at the USHMM, etc. Tell me if you want the full list.
Ironside 50 | 11,489
11 Jun 2010 #51
Tell me if you want the full list.

please I want the full list ....
MareGaea 29 | 2,752
12 Jun 2010 #52
Like strong opposition to religion?

They opposed many things. Religion was just one of those things.

Edit: actually religion was the least important thing.

Hitler was different from Stalin in keeping them alive and forcing to run the business for him.

Well actually no. They financed Hitler and they never financed the Bolshevik revolution. Without the support of the bankers and the industrialists, Hitler would never have gotten where he came. You're making a crucial mistake there.

Edit: they financed Hitler because he was to be a stormbreaker against the communists.

Chinese were enemies of the Soviets, too.

Another mistake. Chinese were not enemies of the Soviets because of ideological principles, but more of power-issues. Two huge countries right beside eachother who both seek world domination. No wonder they don't like eachother.

And then he made them NSDAP apparatchiks

You cannot be serious on that one. Without the big conservative financers, Hitler would be nowhere.

>^..^<

M-G (nuff said)
nott 3 | 594
12 Jun 2010 #53
That's why priest were sent to lagers? Yes, they opposed many things. Revolutionaries, like. Hardly conservative.

nott: Hitler was different from Stalin in keeping them alive and forcing to run the business for him.

Well actually no. They financed Hitler and they never financed the Bolshevik revolution. Without the support of the bankers and the industrialists, Hitler would never have gotten where he came. You're making a crucial mistake there.

He had to run an initially democratic country, don't forget.

nott: Chinese were enemies of the Soviets, too.

Another mistake. Chinese were not enemies of the Soviets because of ideological principles, but more of power-issues. Two huge countries right beside eachother who both seek world domination. No wonder they don't like eachother.

So much for internationalism, as a defining feature of leftism.

nott: And then he made them NSDAP apparatchiks

You cannot be serious on that one. Without the big conservative financers, Hitler would be nowhere.

I am dead serious. They made a mistake.
OP 1jola 14 | 1,879
12 Jun 2010 #54
Stalin (exteme left) did not differ that much from Hitler (extreme right)

Tomorrow I will go in depth on this one, I am too wasted right now,

Can you go in depth on off-topic topic in the appropriate thread in stead of disrupting this one? This one is on "The Pogrom at Eishyshok(Ejszyszki)."

Mods: Can you move the disrupting discussion on Nazism and communism away from this thread? Thank you. Posts 57-67, however interesting belong elswhere

What Jolanda fails to point out, however, is Chodakiewicz is largely discredited by his Polish colleagues:

Said who? Laurence Weinbaum: "adjunct lecturer in history at the College of Judea and Samaria." Please.

Now read about Chodakiewicz: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marek_Jan_Chodakiewicz

"Chodakiewicz's motivations seem less sanguine, and the fact that his wild assertions have received official endorsement is most disturbing. This is especially so becausehis book (even before it was translated) was trashed by many of his colleagues in Poland, including highly regarded authorities in the field. Those scholars severely chastised the unprofessional way in which Chodakiewicz used sources."

So you listed some of them. I went to the first historian you listed:

historians Andrzej Rzeplinski

What kind of historian is he to discredit a real historian?

Andrzej Rzepliński (born November 26, 1949 in Ciechanów) - Polish lawyer, human right expert, member of International Helsinki Federation for Human Rights.

Until martial law in Poland was introduced in 1981 he was an apparatchik of Polish United Workers' Party.

wiki
He is not an historian but a communist lawyer. You should check your sources better. The next one you listed, Andrzej Zbikowski, doesn't even register anywhere of note. I don't want to waste more time on other "experts" "discrediting" a well respected historian like Chodakowski.

(Even though the report is balanced, it will be discredited as "Zionist" or even "Jewish" and dismissed by the intellectually dishonest).

It is not a report, but an article in an Israeli newspaper, by a Jew in a Jewish paper. You call call it Jewish if you like, but it has nothing to do with the book you referenced. The book was not even mentioned.

So, why do you insist that it was a pogrom, meaning that Jews were killed only because they were Jews, by anti-Semitic Polish AK(sic)?

This how this thread references now:

anti-semitism.net/the-pogrom-at-eishyshokejszyszki/

I guess I have become part of the "deniers of this pogrom." LOL

Note: We can either examine the facts of this case and decide if it was a pogrom, or Yaffa Eliach is lying and she get's wide support for doing so. Of course, some are interested to disrupt the thread so it perhaps gets locked out.

It is not that I don't want to give details but most of the information I have is in Polish and the article in the NYT does not link as you can see here:

The Yaffa Eliach "Pogrom at Eishyshok", The New York Times, nytimes.com/ref/opinion/27opclassic.html

The basic facts are these: Yaffa Eliach wrote a book There Was a World about a town of Ejszyszki where she had lived with her parents. The town had a population of 3,500 Jews(town's main inhabitants) and life was good.

pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ejszyszki#cite_note-2

There is a saying in Yiddish "Sleepy as in Ejszyszki." The history of the village is interesting as a study of Jewish life but that is not what Dr Eliach is willing to limit her story to. In 1944, under the Soviet occupation, two Jewish persons were killed, her mother and her little brother, but 30 other surviving Jews were unharmed. This she calls a pogrom. She was seven years old at the time.

In 1939 came the occupants, the Soviets, then the Germans, who murdered most of the population, then the Soviets came back. It is important to note that there was not much difference in the way the German Gestapo went about their business than the Soviet NKVD on Polish lands.

I must go but will continue.

One note: I'm sorry you dismissed Chodakiewicz's book because he includes the testimonies of the unharmed thirty Jews as given to NKVD in the investigation.
Rogalski 5 | 94
12 Jun 2010 #55
I guess I ought to go and pick myself up a copy of the book in that case :-)

(Do you get a commission for any copies sold?!)
Ironside 50 | 11,489
12 Jun 2010 #56
By other Poles, such as Pankowski (human rights activist), historians Andrzej Rzeplinski and Andrzej Jbikowski;

Rzeplinski is not historian, human right activist is hardly qualification to discredit historians, Jbikowski is an engineer I gather and the others I didn't bother to check!

You have a cheek to lie here , who are you ?

Do you get a commission for any copies sold?!)

do you for your rubbish spread thick here?

where is the full list?
I-S (phew!)
Rogalski 5 | 94
12 Jun 2010 #57
Ironside
They are however academics who are better placed than you are to decide on the validity of Chodakowski's methodology. Just because you don't agree with their conclusions doesn't make them wrong.

And since you are such an academic sleuth, I suggest you compile the list of his critics yourself - and then go ahead and discredit them. Save me the bother.
Ironside 50 | 11,489
12 Jun 2010 #58
Sure, why don't you call then engineers to courts to defend people, lawyers should build bridges, and what more doctors should work in kindergartens and kindergarten teachers should cure you and your family - provided of curse that all are academics.

Academics are like universal medicine one is good for all.

And since you are such an academic sleuth, I suggest you compile the list of his critics yourself - and then go ahead and discredit them.

For a sake of the Internet forum I wouldn't bother, its not my field anyway.

Save me the bother.

Why? Easer to lie, eh?
mordechai9751
31 Jul 2013 #59
What's even more frightening is your not recognizing that Jaffa Eliach, author of There Once Was a World, is a woman -- a she, not a he.
Harry
1 Aug 2013 #60
Accuracy never has been the hallmark of holocaust deniers.


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