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People the Soviets planted in Poland


Varsovian 92 | 634
27 Sep 2012 #1
Russian foreign policy has been pretty consistent for centuries. Hence they started preparing for the demise of Communism in the 1980s, just in case.

In Poland they decided to run the underground press and legitimise the anti-system credentials of certain individuals. The byword was credibility. Opposition figures had to look and smell like opposition figures. They also had to be slightly conservative, holding back the more extreme elements and maintaining some sort of cohesion that steered away from rampant populism, which by its very nature is unpredictable and uncontrollable.

In the worst-case scenario of Communist collapse, their medium term goal was to infiltrate the body politic and military and to ensure that bad business practice and corruption delivered: (i) personal benefit (ii) long-term disruption to the administration and economy and (iii) military intelligence.

Longer term, they were to try their utmost to (i) infiltrate EU and especially NATO bodies and (ii) try to sow discord and confusion in EU politics. The byword - credibility. "Of course people in these circles would say this or do that - it's normal isn't it?" - that's the reaction they seek.

Who fits these criteria? Who is in the 21st Century Big Game?

Or perhaps the Russians decided to capitulate their position entirely and say "We lost fair and square!" Does that sound believable? A total and utter volte-face after hundreds of years of subterfuge? Really. Has anyone seen Russia Today run a positive news story about any of Russia's neighbours?
delphiandomine 83 | 17,845
27 Sep 2012 #2
Of course, like a typical PiS voter, you don't actually mention names because you know they'd sue you out of existence.

Why don't you tell us who you're referring to? I mean - we all know that Jaroslaw Kaczynski's father was a member of the PZPR, but please - names.
OP Varsovian 92 | 634
27 Sep 2012 #3
I have never voted for PiS in my life!
Why do you behave like an obsessive Platforma activist? Ooops! Sorry, I didn't mean to let that drop ...
delphiandomine 83 | 17,845
27 Sep 2012 #4
I have never voted for PiS in my life!

Sure. That's why you repeat the rants found on Nasza-Klasa and such almost word for word.

You would be credible if you actually had a shred of proof of your statements - but like all good PiS activists, you 'know' the truth but you won't prove it.
OP Varsovian 92 | 634
27 Sep 2012 #5
Nasza-Klasa - I have never looked at it, though I chickened out of what went on to become Szkolne Lata (which sank without a trace!).

As for proof - I actually have a job I need to keep, as do other people I know and talk to.
delphiandomine 83 | 17,845
27 Sep 2012 #6
As for proof - I actually have a job I need to keep, as do other people I know and talk to.

In other words, you have none except what you read on dodgy websites.

The truth is that if you mentioned them by name, they could sue you out of existence - because you wouldn't be able to back these things up in court.
OP Varsovian 92 | 634
27 Sep 2012 #7
It's true what you say.
Never mind - head down and keep your nose clean. It doesn't matter in the long run.
Harry
27 Sep 2012 #8
Who fits these criteria?

Who indeed? I look forward to you naming names.
OP Varsovian 92 | 634
27 Sep 2012 #9
The opening post is far from fantasy.

The KGB / FSB was/is not a pathetic little operation, staffed by amateurs. They had/have truly intelligent people there and Poland is right slap-bang in the middle of Russia's vital interests.

Despite Russia's superb connections in Communist Poland, your thesis Harry is to say that the Russians were devoid of strategic thinking, had no Plan B and were simply caught with their pants down in 1989.

Interesting. As Delphi says - "Prove it"
Harry
27 Sep 2012 #10
your thesis Harry is to say that the Russians were devoid of strategic thinking, had no Plan B and were simply caught with their pants down in 1989.

Nope, my statement is that I very much look forward to reading the names that you are going to tell us.

As Delphi says - "Prove it"

OK, I'll prove I'm looking forward to it: I'll donate ten zloty to PF for every person you name as being a Polish person who is a Soviet plant. OK?
Ziemowit 13 | 3,768
27 Sep 2012 #11
I'll donate ten zloty to PF for every person you name as being a Polish person who is a Soviet plant. OK?

Ten zloties doesn't seem to be too generous when compared to the excellent program that the PF provides every day to its readers, but if he names all the Russian spies in Poland, the offer is going to ruin you for the rest of your life.
Orpheus - | 114
27 Sep 2012 #13
Arek Aardvark

Isn't that JK's cat?
sobieski 107 | 2,128
27 Sep 2012 #14
In Poland they decided to run the underground press and legitimise the anti-system credentials of certain individuals. The byword was credibility. Opposition figures had to look and smell like opposition figures. They also had to be slightly conservative, holding back the more extreme elements and maintaining some sort of cohesion that steered away from rampant populism, which by its very nature is unpredictable and uncontrollable.

So where does the ducks' father figure here? A life-long commie collabo.
So where Minister Bartoszewski figures in this airhead construction?

In Poland they decided to run the underground press and legitimise the anti-system credentials of certain individuals. The byword was credibility. Opposition figures had to look and smell like opposition figures. They also had to be slightly conservative, holding back the more extreme elements and maintaining some sort of cohesion that steered away from rampant populism, which by its very nature is unpredictable and uncontrollable.

This reminds me why the Polish church is not exactly in favour of opening the old SB files to everybody - IPN has to be able to blackmail the appropriate people.
Harry
27 Sep 2012 #15
In Poland they decided to run the underground press and legitimise the anti-system credentials of certain individuals.

Anybody care to guess who he's talking about? I'll give you a clue: he's playing the old 'we all know all Jews are commies' card.
jon357 63 | 14,255
27 Sep 2012 #16
In the worst-case scenario of Communist collapse, their medium term goal was to infiltrate the body politic and military and to ensure that bad business practice and corruption delivered:

So that's who they're b;aming it on now. I wonder who was to blame for the bad business practice and corruption in the Second Republic. And the First Republic.

Hang on a minute, this is PF. Does the answer begin with a J?

The byword - credibility. "Of course people in these circles would say this or do that - it's normal isn't it?" - that's the reaction they seek.

Honestly, you see conspiracies everywhere. Reds under the bed!
Grzegorz_ 51 | 6,163
27 Sep 2012 #17
Anybody, who thinks that in 89 commies capitulated and "freedom won" is naive like a child, commies allowed it all to happen only after they secured their interests. That's one of the main reasons why this country now is so pathetic.

BTW comments of expats in this topic are truly priceless :)))
OP Varsovian 92 | 634
27 Sep 2012 #18
Yep - it's official, Jon says the KGB are as thick as 2 short planks. Phew! That's a weight off my chest. I think I'll take up knitting now.
sobieski 107 | 2,128
27 Sep 2012 #19
Anybody, who thinks that in 89 commies capitulated and "freedom won" is naive like a child, commies allowed it all to happen only after they secured their interests. That's one of the main reasons why this country now is so pathetic.

BTW comments of expats in this topic are truly priceless :)))

I guess for you freedom begins when rydzyk hoists his flag on the Royal Castle in Warsaw ?
jon357 63 | 14,255
27 Sep 2012 #20
I think I'll take up knitting now

Better that than paranoia and conspiracies.
Harry
27 Sep 2012 #21
this country now is so pathetic.

You are, of course, most welcome to leave.

I think I'll take up knitting now.

Before you do that, could you perhaps supply the names you have been asked to provide?

This reminds me why the Polish church is not exactly in favour of opening the old SB files to everybody - IPN has to be able to blackmail the appropriate people.

Although I'd imagine that the files have been well and truly 'adjusted' by now, you're right: removing even a quarter of the records of RCC collaborators in the files would be virtually impossible.

Varsovian, any chance you can name the RC priests which the Soviets planted?
delphiandomine 83 | 17,845
27 Sep 2012 #22
Varsovian, any chance you can name the RC priests which the Soviets planted?

Should be easy for him, given that he claims to be in possession of the truth.
p3undone 8 | 1,135
27 Sep 2012 #23
Varsovian,So are you saying this is you're theory and that you don't have proof?I don't think it's any more far fetched then the type of subterfuge that the U.S. government has engaged in.It makes sense that the Soviet Russian government would have looked ahead and continued to try to manipulate things to their advantage,though I don't have proof,I'm saying that suggesting something like that does not sound unbelievable.
delphiandomine 83 | 17,845
27 Sep 2012 #24
So are you saying this is you're theory and that you don't have proof?I

P3 - it's common among supporters of the opposition in Poland to claim that they know THE TRUTH, but then fail to provide any evidence of it. Quite normal, we're all used to it and we're used to mocking it.

It makes sense that the Soviet Russian government would have looked ahead and continued to try to manipulate things to their advantage,though I don't have proof,I'm saying that suggesting something like that does not sound unbelievable.

Except the events quickly spiraled out of their control. Would they really have surrendered all power so quickly if they had any control on the situation?

Accusations that the Communists are still in control is the usual right wing hysteria in Poland - you'll get used to it.
jon357 63 | 14,255
27 Sep 2012 #25
Pretending that something like that is a fact rather stretches credibility, not that the OP has yet demonstrated any.
p3undone 8 | 1,135
27 Sep 2012 #26
Delphiandomine,I understand your point and am not suggesting that this definitely happened,I don't think that if it had been done it would have been to stave off the end as you pointed out,but it could be possible that they would try to exert their influence in preparation of the transition,but hey,I could be absolutely wrong,I just don't think that it's far fetched to suggest such a thing.
4 eigner 2 | 831
27 Sep 2012 #27
Accusations that the Communists are still in control is the usual right wing hysteria in Poland

well, I don't think they're in control but it certainly looks like they're doing financially really good in nowadays Poland. When I was in Mikolajki, I was told that the best looking houses in that area are own by the ex commies. Of course, I can't provide any proof for any of it but whoever I've met there, was telling me the same story so I assume, at least some of it is true.
Sasha 2 | 1,083
27 Sep 2012 #28
Russian foreign policy has been pretty consistent for centuries. Hence they started preparing for the demise of Communism in the 1980s, just in case.

You give too much credit to Russian politicians of 80th. The USSR and communism have just collapsed for there no one who was able to foresee the drop in oil prices caused by the Afghan Campaign.

People the Soviets planted

No, I think that's the Polish people you don't like planted their followers. Do you believe that if the Soviets didn't bring communism to Poland, the Polish people wouldn't invent it themselves?
Grzegorz_ 51 | 6,163
29 Sep 2012 #29
Do you believe that if the Soviets didn't bring communism to Poland, the Polish people wouldn't invent it themselves?

Very interesting question. Could you explain what is your position on this one ?
Sasha 2 | 1,083
29 Sep 2012 #30
I think the role of the Soviets in imposing communism in Poland is overestimated. It would have failed, had there not been a social demand within Poland.

Every era has its own feature. Now the time of communism is gone and it's not just Poland that left it behind. So did Russia but it seems like for many Polish people the fact is still inexplicit.


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