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The ongoing de-Germanisation of the Nazis and the Holocaust adds to Poland's Responsibility


dolnoslask 1 | 857    
23 Nov 2016  #31

expelled from their homes in western Poland,

Yes I have seen some pictures from this time, many civilians were murdered and raped by the advancing Soviet army , one incident involved a Russian truck mowing down a line of German refugees, sick no other word to describe it.


Ironside 42 | 7,679    
23 Nov 2016  #32

So Ironside believes

No, you're the one who believes in myths, generalisation and some dunk slogans. I'm talking facts. You are not even able to talk about factual history beside one or two real occurrences you googled and which in fact hasn't been even investigated properly.

Surfing on the sea of maybes and implied guilt will get you nowhere.

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ME to "grow up"??!!

You need to do a lot of growing up and pronto to catch up with your age. If you're really in your 50'.
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is ridiculousLOL

Your assumption are ridiculous. To say the least. Wait, I'm talking to a guy to whom Trump voters are fascist. Progressive lefties deal in slogans, unicorns and the world of fairies not in facts or reality. lol

Grow up Lyzko:
youtube.com/watch?v=sXQkXXBqj_U&feature=youtu.be

Sin is found

If you want to talk about morals and your aim is to preach do it in a Church or a Synagog. 99.9% of people alive during the WWII are dead now. What is the point?

On the other hand, many a Pole was all too glad to hand over their Jewish fellow citizens

I'm sure you're unable to answer - how many? If I would ask you to produce a reliable data.
Failing that, American Jews done even less to help their allegedly fellow people in Europe. Notorious example of Jewish's refugees filled boat that has been send back from the USA shores. Not one voice in the Jewish community had been heard. Yet you have a cheek to pick on strangers basing it on some strange notion you have that has nothing to do with reality. Grow up!

but he was not German

Would you explain to me what is your obsession with ethnicity?
DNA pretty much confirm that we're all mixed up to some extend.

Responsibility of Germany doesn't or didn't lie in the fact that some or a lot of Germans were killing Jews but in the fact that it was an official state policy with elites and middle class and top echelons of the German society and a state participated in that.

What is so difficult to understand?

Germans, especially over fifty, don't sleep easily either:-)

Germans no longer don't give a damn!

Poland remained the killing field for Jews

That is some rare garbage. Is that even mean anything? Would you care to translate it from Marxist?
Observvver    
23 Nov 2016  #33

"Would you explain to me what is your obsession with ethnicity? "

You misunderstand, I'm countering the 'obsession' of the OP and the first post. I'm arguing that German nationality does is not the same as nazi. Note that I'm not talking about ethmicities at all, but nationalities and ideologies. Polonius3 begand this thread by trying to suggest that we should be talking about 'German Holocaust' so that we know that nazies were Germans. I disagree.
OP Polonius3 985 | 11,637    
23 Nov 2016  #34

Poles or Ukrainians serving in an overwhelmingly lower-level capacity

In such enumerations never forget the Jews of the Ghetto Police who helped brutally herd their fellow-Jews into the cattle trucks that took them to the death camps. Also the Jewish camp kapos who assisted the Germans in the extermination process and the Jewish elders of the Juden Rat who drew up lists of Jews and their addresses to facilitate their round-up. Poles were not perfect but neither were Jews. Everyone was trying to buy a little time and maybe survive a day or two longer, maybe the Allies would bomb Auschwitz or the Russians would come or some miracle would occur. That's how desperate people think.
dolnoslask 1 | 857    
23 Nov 2016  #35

so that we know that nazies were Germans. I disagree.

So please explain where the Nazis came from, was it outer space ?
Lyzko 13 | 2,520    
23 Nov 2016  #36

I repeat, lots of Jews jumped on the bandwagon of helping to collaborate with the enemy. The only difference which must be noted is that presumably the Jews weren't intent on annihilating their own people:-)

What one does in order to survive is separate and apart from what the perpetrators do in order to instigate an inescapable situation.

@Dolno, the Nazis were the 'Vordenker', the originators, of the perfervid misdeeds in which many Poles sadly took part. Sometimes, it was for money, other times, a hatred of Jews fueled mainly by centuries-old Christian anti-Semitism!
Ironside 42 | 7,679    
23 Nov 2016  #37

The garbage seems to coming from YOUR direction, Ironside:-)

It figures that you prefer to talk on this level knowing full well that you're unable to talk facts. On that note - a middle finger salute!

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Polonius3 begand this thread by trying to suggest that we should be talking about 'German Holocaust' so that we know that nazies were Germans. I disagree.

Well, historical facts as are follow. Holocaust was a direct result of the German state official policy. Nothing more nothing less.
An argument that not all the Germans were Nazis although statistically true is irreverent.
Observvver    
23 Nov 2016  #38

Polonius3, Jews did not spontaneously join the sonderkommando or the Ghetto Police. How do you think they were in a ghetto? They did those things as desperate attempts to survive a buit longer, it was every man for himself, because they were under constant threat of death themselves. That is understandable. You would do the same if was your family on the line.

By contrast the Ukrainian nationalists were very eager to join the nazis with no pressure. Likewise, the Slovak state willingly paid the nazis to take their jews for killing, they didn't have to do that either.

There is a big difference between volunteering and survival. Even those jews who used the Auschwitz brothel, using the poor sex slaves inside, could arguably be defended because they had been dehumanised by their conditions. What is the excuse of the Ukrainian SS guards at Sobibor? Or the Sloval Minister who signed the cheque to pay for his jews' deportation? There is no excuse, they were willing volunteers.
OP Polonius3 985 | 11,637    
23 Nov 2016  #39

nazies were Germans. I disagree

The Nazis who came up with the Endlösung concept at Wannsee, those who designed, built, ovdersaw and operated the resultant KLs were not Liechtensteiners or Slovaks but Germans. The fact that they found flunkies to help in the daily routines or forced them to at gunpoint does not change the basic premise that this was a German concept from start ot finish.
Observvver    
23 Nov 2016  #40

"Well, historical facts as are follow. Holocaust was a direct result of the German state official policy. Nothing more nothing less"

I'd agree with that. But you muist agree that that is very different from saying it was the policy of every German. And you must also concede that whilst the German Nazi Govt created the conditions, other governments and individuals used the opportunity to willingly join in. They didn't have to, but they chose to anyway.
Lyzko 13 | 2,520    
23 Nov 2016  #41

With only the last half of your second sentence are you correct, Ironside, ok? I'm giving you that much, at least.

Yes, it is true that the Nazis were the instigators of the Holocaust and it is also true that not ALL Germans were Nazis or even Nazi sympathizers, for that matter:-)

Many Poles however, DID aid the Germans in some of their dirty work. Uncomfortable as you may be with this FACT, I'm uncomfortable with what my Jewish brethren over in Israel have done to many of their Palestinian, non-Jewish brethren.

I'm not going to sit here and be the only one who's uncomfortable, allright? Let's spread the conscience around a little here!!
Ironside 42 | 7,679    
23 Nov 2016  #42

Jews did not spontaneously join ..... the Ghetto Police.

Sure they did. It was a question of a personal choice and connections.
OP Polonius3 985 | 11,637    
23 Nov 2016  #43

Ukrainian nationalists were very eager to join the nazis

The Ukrainians had in the back of their mind that siding with the Germans might somehow, some day lead to an independent Ukraine or at least an autonomous one functioning as a German protectorate. Even that was better than being under teh boot of the hated red Rooskies.
Observvver    
23 Nov 2016  #44

"I'm not going to sit here and be the only one who's uncomfortable, allright? Let's spread the conscience around a little here!!"

Then this might be an opportune time to point out that it was the British who invented concentration camps ;)
dolnoslask 1 | 857    
23 Nov 2016  #45

the originators, of the perfervid misdeeds in which many Poles sadly took part.

I agree but please accept that many poles put thenselves at risk to help their Jewish neighbours, as you said many Jews were also capos in the camps , Poles and Jews were put into a situation where they were put between a rock and a hard place, some jews and poles did what they did thinking it would appease and help them survive the evil of the invading master race.

Fact is if there were no Nazis there would not have been a holocaust
Observvver    
23 Nov 2016  #46

"Even that was better than being under teh boot of the hated red Rooskies."

I don;t see how that justifies joing up as a camp guard at Sobibor. How does that serve an independent Ukraine? No, I'm sorry, that doesn't wash.
dolnoslask 1 | 857    
23 Nov 2016  #47

siding with the Germans might somehow,

They also sided with the Russians.
OP Polonius3 985 | 11,637    
23 Nov 2016  #48

policy of every German

It is a well-known fact that after Hitler's intial victories his support was overwhelming. Only a tiny fringe of German society was anti-Nazi.
Observvver    
23 Nov 2016  #49

"It is a well-known fact that after Hitler's intial victories his support was overwhelming."

His initial victories were in 1938/9. He was in power from 1933, and has put in place a police state. There were no free elections after that, dissidents had been interned, the opposition media shut down. It was not a free state, so any measure of 'support' is meaningless. Would you have trusted the opinion polls in Poland in 1970?
OP Polonius3 985 | 11,637    
23 Nov 2016  #50

trying to deflect her own complicity

Wait till we get to the post-war periofd. The heinous performance of stalinist Jews in the early post-wart period, the torture and murder of AK freedom-fighters and other Polish patriots is rarely discussed on PF, so maybe it's high time. Now it is prominent people on the Polish scene who are trying to deflect their families' dastardly deeds. When someone came up to Michnik and asked about his brotehr Stefan (a fugitive from Polish justice hiding in Sweden), the Grand Stutterer contemptuously retorted: "Ch-cha-cha-chamstwo!" But what was boorish: someone's inquiry or the blood on the hands of a stalinist judicial murderer?
Observvver    
23 Nov 2016  #51

"Only a tiny fringe of German society was anti-Nazi"

No, only a tiny fringe DARED say they were. Students were executed by guillotine in 1943 for handing out anti-nazi leaflets. That's quite a big deterrent to expressing your real views.

Remember that the nazi party has dismal election results right up to 1933, when they scraped enough for a coalition. They did not have broad support to even win an election outright.
Observvver    
23 Nov 2016  #52

"The heinous performance of stalinist Jews"

Why is it Jews that you only mention by religion, but others by nationality? Do you have something against the Jewish religion? Those Poles committing atrocities were presumably Catholics, and the Ukrainians Orthodox, is that relevant?
Lyzko 13 | 2,520    
23 Nov 2016  #53

The Jews are both a religion as well as an ethnicity.

Indeed, Rakosi in Hungary was an especially nasty piece of work.
Ironside 42 | 7,679    
23 Nov 2016  #54

But you muist agree that that is very different from saying it was the policy of every German.

I'm not saying that. Alas societies and countries are judged (or used to be judged until a new crop of neo-Marxist Jewish storytellers) by the standards of their elites and by the action of their state. In that light few people with a conviction and courage to go against the grain is sadly just a footnote in the great book of history.

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And you must also concede that whilst the German Nazi Govt created the conditions, other governments and individuals used the opportunity to willingly join in.

I don't have to concede anything. Nor concede I must. I see no reason to side-track into something that cannot be debated properly on this level of generality.

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Many Poles however

How many? Can you produce a data on request? If you say many you should be able to tell us how many. I hope is not one of those openings - 'as they say', 'I heard', 'a general opinion is'.

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DID aid the Germans

Define aid.
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Uncomfortable as you may be with this FACT

I'm not uncomfortable at all. I'm well aware that there were indviduals who sold out Jewish in hiding to the German authorities for a sugar, cigarettes and vodka. Law abiding citizens eh?

I don't see in what way existence of those individuals or their actions would make me uncomfortable?
dolnoslask 1 | 857    
23 Nov 2016  #55

The heinous performance of stalinist Jews in the early post-wart period, the torture and murder of AK freedom-fighters and other Polish patriots is rarely discussed on PF

It goes way before the AK fighters Pol, when the Russians came to my fathers village near Lvov a certain group pointed out those who were policemen teachers or were officers in the Polish army., those never to be seen again, the rest deported to Siberia, the problem with discussing this is that it just opens up old wounds and does nothing to build bridges, but the fact is there was that some call now the hidden hollocaust.
Observvver    
23 Nov 2016  #56

"The Jews are both a religion as well as an ethnicity."

Don't talk racist garbage. So how is it that I could convert to judaism? And how is it that people leave Judaism? People cannot join and leave an ethnicity, so by definition it is not an ethnicity. It is just a religion.

A jew in Poland is Polish by nationality. There is no such nationality as Jewish.

Stick to the topic, please
Lyzko 13 | 2,520    
23 Nov 2016  #57

Tell that to the former KGB!! On every Jewish citizen's passport in the old Soviet Union, there was marked "¬" in a large initial for "ZHYD".

I saw them myself.
OP Polonius3 985 | 11,637    
23 Nov 2016  #58

Jews

I refer only to ethnic Jews according to DNA. The Stalinist butchers were irreligous atheists. It must be said that observant Jews were victims of communism as were Poles. Belarusians tended to support the Soviets along nationalist lines viewing pre-war Poles as colonisers and Polonisers of Belarus.
Lyzko 13 | 2,520    
23 Nov 2016  #59

Exactly! "Jewish" simply means "adherents or descendents of adherents of those who followed the Jewish faith...were the scion of the inhabitants of Judaea, excluding gentile Romans, Greeks or Arabs.

On the other hand, "Hebrew" must refer solely to the culture of the JEWISH countrymen from Israel as well as to the national language HEBREW, and not "Israeli" which refers to the nationality only!

Furthermore, Jews are Semites, therefore of a different ethnicity within the Caucasian family, much like inhabitants of India. They are still considered "white", but not European Caucasians:-))

Back to the "ongoing de-Germanization", for the umpteenth time, they Nazi conquerors were German, yet, compared with the Danes or the Bulgarians, a large percentage of Poles participated in helping local Nazis.
Ironside 42 | 7,679    
23 Nov 2016  #60

yet, compared with the Danes or the Bulgarians, a large percentage of Poles participated in helping local Nazis.

If you can make comparisons you are surely in the possession of the reliable data. Could you produce it>?



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