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Poland obliged to make war reparations to Austria and Germany after WWI. Why?


Bratwurst Boy 5 | 9,683
25 Jan 2011  #31
Millions of tourists visited the battlefields of France after the First World War, but only a few pushed further and investigated the devastation caused by the World War in Poland.

Problem is there hadn't been devastations in Poland. The devastations had been in Prussia, Russia and Austria.

You should keep that in mind. Because the destruction hadn't been aimed at Poles or Poland.

The loss of human life, which I should have mentioned first, is hard to estimate for Poles fought in all three contending armies.

I've read a number as high as 1,23 Mill people....
Varsovian 92 | 634
25 Jan 2011  #32
All Chinese believed 100% that the Great Wall could be seen from space with the naked eye - many Polish historians operate along the same lines.

My point about archaeology could be expanded a bit - more Poles have dug more in Egypt than has ever been dug up in Poland. That's not because there's nothing in Poland - my area (Pruszków to Podkowa - west of Warsaw) is littered with primitive iron furnaces (which armed the Vandals in their great drive south) but no-one is interested. The only time you get any interest is when someone wants to build a house - then of course the investor has to pay for ex - spurts to excavate everything.
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 9,683
25 Jan 2011  #33
but no-one is interested.

That's sad...Why do you think that is so?
Mr Grunwald 19 | 1,542
25 Jan 2011  #34
Poland? Poles? Hello? I love Poland and consider myself Norwegian-Polish patriot but come on... It is Poland and not America China or Russia...

You know pretty well that modern history is based on the first "modern" history books which were created to use as "propaganda" tools in furthering their nationalism and this was happaning in a time when Poland wasn't on the map and that her speakers weren't much fond of her...
skysoulmate 14 | 1,296
25 Jan 2011  #35
Did you learn that in Grunnskolen? Somehow I doubt it. Nothing prevents Poland from doing as much research as they want. However, as everything else in life it's about money. There's more worldwide interest in archaeological finds from say Egypt than Poland. Therefore there's more money to be made doing research in that region. Don't make things complicated when they really aren't.
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 9,683
25 Jan 2011  #36
There's more worldwide interest in archeological finds from say Egypt than Poland.

Ummm...I for one are foremostly interested in the history of central Europe.
For example the century find of the Sky disc of Nebra is much more interesting to me than any pyramid.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nebra_sky_disk

Or the recent archeological finds that the modern Saxony was much more crowded 5000 years back than today... probably all Celts.

I have come to known Poles as very interested in their history...possibly BECAUSE they had been "wiped from the map" for some time. At least more than in the history of Egypt!

That's why I wonder...
Harry
25 Jan 2011  #37
I have come to known Poles as very interested in their history.

Or at least very interested in certain bits of their history.
Gregrog 4 | 100
25 Jan 2011  #38
Problem is there hadn't been devastations in Poland. The devastations had been in Prussia, Russia and Austria.

This damages didn't disappeared by miracle. After the war and regaining independence, Poland had to deal with it and it was our problem, as our houses were burned.

This destruction was aimed at Poles as citizens of Prussia, Russia and Germany.
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 9,683
25 Jan 2011  #39
Crap!
Poles had been part of the armies of Prussia, Russia and Austria
englishwarsaw - | 5
25 Jan 2011  #40
As far as my reference to the Vandals is concerned, I think very little has been available in English. I have produced a translation of work by Stefan Wojda, the Polish archaeologist who pointed out the nature of the Iron Age inhabitants, which is, I think, the first time it has been produced in anything other than Polish. Although I was somewhat sceptical, his claims do make sense and I checked on the internet that at least some other experts on the period accepted the principle of his conclusions. The link to the Vandals is a widely accepted association, although Wojda did not specify this himself.)

See: englishwarsaw.blogspot.com/2009/05/mochow-ancient-history.html

This has a link to a PDF document with the translation.
Mr Grunwald 19 | 1,542
25 Jan 2011  #41
Crap!
Poles had been part of the armies of Prussia, Russia and Austria

At the end of the war when they saw that it may been possible for the Poles to rgain independance they tried to sabotage it. For instance putting veteran Ukrainian units in those days Lemberg...

BB durign the war I hardly think that it was aimed at Poles or a newborn Poland but when they started to lose... or when they saw it as an big oppurtunity for the Poles to regain independance or start an uprising... they tried to halt it somehow...
englishwarsaw - | 5
25 Jan 2011  #42
Re Varsovian's comment, 'was littered' might be more appropriate. My local site is now covered by a huge distribution centre.
Crow 137 | 7,521
25 Jan 2011  #43
Poland obliged to make war reparations to Austria and Germany after WWI. Why?

Why?

because Poland isn`t independent.
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 9,683
25 Jan 2011  #44
BB durign the war I hardly think that it was aimed at Poles or a newborn Poland but when they started to lose... or when they saw it as an big oppurtunity for the Poles to regain independance or start an uprising... they tried to halt it somehow...

Believe me...at the end of the war the fate of the Poles was not on the mind of the Germans.
To much concerned with their own fate and the abyss of the changing world order, civil war and a looming revolution soviet style.
Not to mention that the territorial losses had been forced onto Germany in 1919 as the war was long over.

Who knows if the german government would had agreed to all that if they had known in 1918....
Hence the Dolchstoss-legend! ;)
Des Essientes 7 | 1,291
25 Jan 2011  #45
And which part of Britain does the name Zamoyski come from, it's definitely not English and it doesn't sound very Welsh or Scots either. he may have been born in Britain and have a British passport, but I doubt he's neutral on the subject

Adam Zamoyski is descended from the Polish magnates who ruled Zamost.
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 9,683
25 Jan 2011  #46
This one?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zamo%C5%9B%C4%87#History

...
Zamość was founded in the year 1580 by the Chancellor and Hetman (head of the army of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth) Jan Zamoyski, on the trade route linking western and northern Europe with the Black Sea.

Mr Grunwald 19 | 1,542
25 Jan 2011  #47
Believe me...at the end of the war the fate of the Poles was not on the mind of the Germans

Maybe not Germans but, Prussian officers. There were plans to retake some of the lands back I guess. But the there were some Polish forces guarding the new made borders and didn't fall for provocations. I don't have much proof of it. But I guess it may been quite possible don't you agree?

There is an uprising Poles are regaining ground and the German stab is doing nothing with it? Especially the "Posen" born Germans?
Des Essientes 7 | 1,291
25 Jan 2011  #48
This one?

Yes that's the place. I must have read about it in a book that anglicized the spelling.
Paulina 9 | 1,448
25 Jan 2011  #49
Adam Zamoyski is descended from the Polish magnates who ruled Zamost.

And from another famous magnate family - Czartoryscy (his mother was Elżbieta Czartoryska and he's the Chairman of the Board of the Princes Czartoryski Foundation):

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Czartoryski_family
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 9,683
25 Jan 2011  #50
Maybe not Germans but, Prussian officers.

Erm...Prussian officers were Germans, you know? ;)
Officers of the German Empire under the Kaiser....

But I guess it may been quite possible don't you agree?

Not really Gruni.
Germany was on the brink of destruction with a civil war already raging, also in the army, threatening to destroy the old world order, in the midst of losing the biggest war to date with an absolute uncertain future, still starving to death because of the Anglo-french blockade, with no idea that they would lose 1/4 of their territory soon...no, Poles had been not much in the german minds.

But if there would had been surely some literature about that. But nothing I read till today showed any sign of the East featuring in any way in the mess Germany had been in 1918.

The re-shuffling of the borders later in Versailles was the starting point actually...
enkidu 7 | 623
25 Jan 2011  #51
Erm...Prussian officers were Germans, you know? ;)
Officers of the German Empire under the Kaiser....

I think the Prussian officers would be rather offended by this statement.
And these weren't the people you would like to offend, right?
Marynka11 4 | 675
25 Jan 2011  #52
Interestingly he also mentions that “In 1930 a Ukrainian nationalist organisation funded from Germany begun a campaign of terrorism and sabotage.” p344 again I wasn’t aware that they got their money from Germany, was anybody else?

I know the Volksdeutsche formed the SS troops in the Ukraine and many other Eastern European countries.

The commies had their Comintern, so I can imagine the nazis could have formed a similar organization. Just a guess.
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 9,683
25 Jan 2011  #53
I think the Prussian officers would be rather offended by this statement.
And these weren't the people you would like to offend, right?

Why?
Do you have an idea which position Prussia took in the German Empire?

I know the Volksdeutsche formed the SS troops in the Ukraine and many other Eastern European countries.

Nope...Volksdeutsche could gain entry in the German SS divisions. The foreign SS divisions were for foreigners...like Ukrainians or other eastern European countries.

The commies had their Comintern, so I can Imagine the nazis could have formed a similar organization. Just a guess.

Hitler tried to build an anti-comintern alliance...even inviting Poland.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Comintern_Pact

...
The Pact was to be originally introduced in late November 1935 with invitations for Britain, Italy, China and Poland to join.[2]

enkidu 7 | 623
25 Jan 2011  #54
Why?
Do you have an idea which position Prussia took in the german Empire?

Yeah. That's why I thing they would be offended by calling them common "Germans".
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 9,683
25 Jan 2011  #55
Well...my family had been proud Prussians in lower Silesia, serving the Kaiser as citizens of the german Empire equally proudly.

I don't know where you get your ideas...
They were Germans like everybody else!
enkidu 7 | 623
25 Jan 2011  #56
Ah... Just a family stories. Good Junker looks down to the common German.
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 9,683
25 Jan 2011  #57
Good Junkers look down on anybody not-Junker! ;)
But most Prussians hadn't been Junkers....

Just take a look at a map...Prussia was more than the half of the german Empire...
Trevek 26 | 1,702
25 Jan 2011  #58
"In 1930 a Ukrainian nationalist organisation funded from Germany begun a campaign of terrorism and sabotage." p344 again I wasn't aware that they got their money from Germany, was anybody else?

I recall hearing something about this but I forget where... I'll dig around. I think there were also elements of Lithuanian nationalist activity in Germany during the interwar period.

Of course, it's important to consider that rather than the funding being German, it might have been coming from Germany (geographically) from Ukrainian sympathisers or nationalists.

The first paragraph of this page has some answers: encyclopediaofukraine.com/pages/O/R/OrganizationofUkrainianNationalists.htm

Does anybody know why?

There's a contact for him on his website. has anyone written to ask?
OP hague1cmaeron 14 | 1,377
26 Jan 2011  #59
That is a good idea I think I might do that, yes I kind of thought about doing that, now I think I will(:

After further investigation I guess that might not be an option , it seems that the email is that of his publisher):

I guess I just have to do some further research.

found something:

Upon Ober Ost's inception in 1915, Erich Ludendorff, von Hindenburg's second in command set up a system of managing the large area under Ober Ost's jurisdiction. Although von Hindenburg was technically in command, it was Ludendorff who was in control of the administration. There were ten staff members, each with a speciality (finance, agriculture, etc.). The area was divided into the Courland District, the Lithuania District and the Bialystok-Grodno District, each overseen by a district commander. Ludendorff's plan was to make Ober Ost a colonial territory for the settlement of his troops after the war [...]

This is prior to 1918 though, so still got to keep at it.
Harry
26 Jan 2011  #60
After further investigation I guess that might not be an option , it seems that the email is that of his publisher):

Some publishers do pass emails on to authors, especially mail containing questions about historical facts. I had an interesting email exchange with Laurence Rees after a researcher from PBS misunderstood his work and attributed a quote to him which he had not made.


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